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2020-04-05, 05:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2017
Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
Hello all, I am wondering how you all feel about a warlock ignoring Eldritch Blast and its related invocations in favor of Sacred Flame? I think you would need something like Evoker Wizard 6, to make the cantrip more reliable and to broaden your spell slot use but this seems like a rather heavy investment for a minor buff, although the sheer spell versatality of an evoker is nothing to ignore.
I assume that a Cleric or sorcerer multi-class might also have some good benefits perhaps focusing more on the healing elements of the sub-class?
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2020-04-05, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
So here's the thing: Eldritch Blast should have been a class feature, not a Cantrip. That much being said, Tiefling Warlock 6/Sorcerer 14 (specifically Red/Gold Draconic bloodline) can work. You're more focused on fire, but Celestial 6 gives you +Cha to Radiant and Fire. Combine this with Draconic doing the same for fire, Flames of Phelthegos for Reroll 1s for Damage, and Elemental Adept for ignore resistance, you do pretty solid damage overall. Sacred Flame and Firebolt suddenly become pretty hot as Cantrips (Firebolt suddenly does scaling d10+10 reroll 1s ignore resistance, and Sacred Flame does scaling d8+5). I mean, that's pretty solid tbh.
This doesn't include Fireball, Scorching Ray, Flame Strike, Flaming Sphere, Guiding Bolt, etc. This can be a serious hoot to play. I'd start with a level of Sorcerer, flip to Warlock 6, then finish with Sorcerer.Last edited by Tokuhara; 2020-04-05 at 06:37 AM.
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2020-04-05, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
Eh, it’s a free cantrip, and works great when you come across a heavily-armored enemy, who may have a high AC, but low Dex save.
Is it great? No. But it gives you a nice alternative to use at certain times.
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2020-04-05, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Maine
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Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
You never match the basic EB spamming warlock but I think it would do enough damage at-will while also freeing up a lot of invocations for utility.
I could see some strange pseudo celestrial/chain warlock tank with gift of the ever-living one, tomb of levistus, dwarven fortitude, as a hill dwarf.Last edited by stoutstien; 2020-04-05 at 07:42 AM.
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2020-04-05, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2019
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2020-04-05, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
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2020-04-05, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2019
Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
If you're a Celestial Tomelock you can take Fire Bolt for a Spell Attack Vs AC that also keys off your Celestial Subclass Ability.
Shillelagh with Green Flame Blade is another commonly used combination for Celestial Tomelock. GFB is ofc a Warlock Cantrip, not a Tome pick.
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2020-04-05, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2017
Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
If you are investing in 6 levels of evoker wizard just to get 1/2 damage on save cantrips ... I think that is going a bit far. Especially since all your wizard spells depend on int and the warlock or cleric spells (depending on how you obtained sacred flame) depend on char or wis.
In addition, if you are just looking for reliable save cantrip damage then an evoker wizard with Toll the Dead does better than most other options since it is on the wizard spell list, does base d12 damage (save for 1/2 at level 6), doesn't need multiclassing or multiple decent stats.
Trying to combine the celestial level 6 ability which adds cha mod to radiant/fire damage with the level 6 evoker ability doesn't come online until 12th level.
When it does sacred flame will do 3d8+5 (assuming 20 cha) which is an average of 18.5 ... with save it does 9 damage. This is hardly impressive enough to create a build around. In addition, a celestial warlock can just use agonizing blast which is 3d10+15 = 31.5 damage on average. Yes, it won't do damage if you miss but even hitting with ONE bolt will average 10.5 which is more than sacred flame if they make the save.
It can be done if you want to build a concept around it but honestly you might be better off reflavoring eldritch blast as bolts from heaven and see if your DM would allow you to switch it to radiant damage from force.
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2020-04-05, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
Sacred Flame doesn't deal half and half; it only deals Radiant damage. So it wouldn't be affected by the Draconic Sorcerer's damage boost - only the Celestial Warlock boost. I know you mention it implicitly on a sentence, but the start of your post leads to think the two would combine.
That said: as a Tomelock, you could snatch Produce Flame and Create Bonfire, which would be affected (in theory) by everything you mentioned. Produce Flame has the benefit of providing light (but with a smaller range and less damage) and Create Bonfire is a spell placed in an area.
(Minor nitpick: why don't Clerics get a Radiant damage cantrip that hits vs. AC? There's precedent with Lance of Light in 4e - one of the reasons, if not THE reason, they were called "Lazer Clerics" in that edition.)Retooler of D&D 3.5 (and 5e/Next) content. See here for more.
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2020-04-05, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
It isn't as easy to do damage with, but it's doable. If you use create bonfire first, then next round use sacred flame you'll keep up on damage, but you need to keep the monster in the square. Flaming sphere and booming blade/warcaster work for keeping the monster in the square. It's more work than EB spam, but more fun.
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2020-04-05, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Maine
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Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
Honestly when I played my celestial tome lock I usually only had to use cantrips for clean up or utility. He used magic Stone alot but he was a halfling so he had an affinity for smacking large creatures with rocks.
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2020-04-05, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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2020-04-05, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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- Chicago, IL
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Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
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2020-04-05, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2019
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2020-04-05, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-05, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-05, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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2020-04-05, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-05, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-05, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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2020-04-05, 09:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-05, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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2020-04-05, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2019
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2020-04-06, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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- Canada
Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
Having played a Celestial Tomelock, Scared Flame works well. I also took Green Flame Blade, and Flame Bolt (at 3rd) for a Sune worshiping celestial touched warlock.
Yes it was Fire dependent and I had fewer options against Fire Resistant/Immune enemies but the campaign didn't revolve around those.
I had a versatile character for ranged attacks, melee attacks, and save attacks vs high AC's. Plus all the other abilities available to me.
This was a fun and involved character that I would recommend to others. Be sure to discuss all character ideas with your DM though. In the end they are the only ones that can tell you (or hint) whether a character is a good idea in the campaign they are running.
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2020-04-06, 06:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
The point was about the general balance of player options in SCAG not just the blade cantrips.
SCAG IMO has the more options that are 'off' than any other single book. Which is impressive seeing how short it is.
BB does more damage than other cantrips barring EB. Not by a whole lot but iy did move away from the standard of adding stat modifier to the cantrip w/o an action cost e.g magic Stone or shillelagh. Most of the time it's not enough to care about but having a spell with little to no cost that can benefit from bonuses to weapon attacks and spell casting is going to cause issues with a good change of more popping up with additional content.
I think it became the standard option for anyone who didn't have the extra attack feature. Standard options tend to reduce options.
It has the most duds for Subclasses. If you discount reprints, Scag Subclasses have a very low popularity. Chalk it up to bad fluff or crunch, they are off.
Overall SCAG is wonky and off. The overall balance of 5e is solid enough that it doesn't break or even bend anything but it does leave it asmidgen off.Last edited by stoutstien; 2020-04-06 at 06:14 AM.
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2020-04-06, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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2020-04-06, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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2020-04-06, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2018
Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
If you think the SCAG blade cantrips are unbalanced, you either haven’t played with them or roll for stats. Relying on a secondary stat for an attack is more than enough balance.
In my experience, the situations where BB gets abused, the cantrip is not the problem. Sorcadins and Hexblade Sorlocks are well above the power curve even without them.
Only Clerics and Rogues without extra attack get real value out of BB, and only Rogues will be using it constantly. Eldritch Knights get substantial benefits from levels 7-10, but making their L7 subclass feature relevant is hardly unbalancing.
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2020-04-06, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
Yea sorcerer is probably to key element that sends it out of wack. Hexblade is a good example of what I meant by it stacks to easily. I'm worried as additional content is published it'll just make the stronger option stronger without doing anything to address the weaker ones.
As far as single attack vs BB in the case of rogue and clerics I think if normal attack had more flexible from the get it would be a non issue.
BB adding almost as much soft CC as AOO rubs me wrong.Last edited by stoutstien; 2020-04-06 at 08:04 AM.
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2020-04-06, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2018
Re: Sacred Flame and Celestial Warlocks?
In theory (and normally in practice) it’s balanced out by the fact that those using BB either shouldn’t be in melee (Rogues, Wizards, Sorcerers, most Warlocks), are using a secondary stat (Clerics) or rely on BB as their special class benefit (EKs).
In my actual play experience, it’s only been worth it for a Swashbuckler Rogue (Magic Initiate), Abjurer Wizard (Dwarf with Gauntlets of Ogre Power) and builds using Quicken Spell. I’m assuming Eldritch Knights would like it too, but I play PHB+1 and the EKs I’ve seen all preferred Xanathar’s and access to Absorb Element.