Ua: Psionic options revisited

[Millstone85]

Didn't play 4E, so I can't speak to that one - although I will say that I personally don't care what weird things 4E may have done with Psionics. I guess I won't be upset if they want to keep something around from that, but I certainly don't consider it important or want it personally, either.

Basically, where any other class would get at-will and encounter powers, a psionic class would instead get augmentable at-will powers.

The UA mystic almost worked the same. Just imagine each discipline being composed of an at-will talent and its psi-costing augmentations, instead of that weird "psychic focus" thingy.

[Segev]

The difference is, for me though, that Seances and Ouiji Boards are not generally what people are referring to when they are referring to Psionics in a fantasy setting.

Those sorts of trappings have generally gone to the Divination wizard, or put under things like the spell Speak with Dead. Very rarely have I seen someone ask to be able to do those things for a Psionic character. Mostly they want Jedi abilities or regeneration. Not palm reading.

And for me, there's very little about "quivering palm" or "stunning strike" or martial arts in general that says "psion" any more than ouji boards and crystal balls do. So, to me, you're stretching just as far to connect monks to psions "sharing a room" as I am to say that palm readers and spiritualists are "sharing a room" with psions.

I'm not trying to tell you what flavor to have your ice cream, I'm saying "hey, you know Gelato and Ice Cream share a lot in common, why do you keep saying they don't."

Whereas, to me, you're saying, "Gelato and ice cream share a lot in common, but I don't see how you can say ice cream and frozen yogurt are at all alike."

[Chaosmancer]

And for me, there's very little about "quivering palm" or "stunning strike" or martial arts in general that says "psion" any more than ouji boards and crystal balls do. So, to me, you're stretching just as far to connect monks to psions "sharing a room" as I am to say that palm readers and spiritualists are "sharing a room" with psions.


Whereas, to me, you're saying, "Gelato and ice cream share a lot in common, but I don't see how you can say ice cream and frozen yogurt are at all alike."

They are? And Psions share stuff with Wizards too. Never meant to imply they don't.

After all, Telepathic bond, Telekinesis, the ability to create fire (pyrokinesis), levitation. All of those are Psionic powers to me. On top of the stuff like portent or speak with dead

The difference I see is that while Wizards and Psions share abilities, Psions and Monks share themes.

That was all I was trying to point out, they do share DNA, that was my only point.

[HPisBS]

And for me, there's very little about "quivering palm" or "stunning strike" or martial arts in general that says "psion" any more than ouji boards and crystal balls do....

How about
- Stillness of Mind (shrug off mental influence)
- Tongue of the Sun and Moon ("touch the ki of other minds so that you understand all spoken languages")
- Diamond Soul (gain all mental saves, + Con)
- Empty Body (astral projection - literally your mind leaving your body for a while)

Whereas, to me, you're saying, "Gelato and ice cream share a lot in common, but I don't see how you can say ice cream and frozen yogurt are at all alike."

Meh. If anything, I'm sure he was just aiming to weaken the... yogurt's connection to shore up the other's. The point really is just that "there's no connection" is a flawed statement.


I think I've said something like this much earlier, but the psychic connections to the current classes that I see as being the most natural are:

Telekinesis - Sorcerers
Telepathy - Bards
Perspicacity (better senses, able to overcome illusions, etc) and/or Precognition - Monks
Biokinesis - Fighters / Monks
A little of everything, but focus on "psionic constructs" (blades) - Rogues


- Speaking of which, it seems this discussion has gone on quite a tangent, here. Are we about ready to get back to the psionic subclasses, this wonky Psi Die mechanic, and what we might like to see changed for psionics' next iteration - whether that be as subclasses or an actual full class?

[WadeWay33]

Telekinesis - Sorcerers
Telepathy - Bards
Perspicacity (better senses) and/or Precognition - Monks
Biokinesis - Fighters / Monks
A little of everything, but focus on "psionic constructs" (blades) - Rogues

I personally think fighters should specialize in Telekinesis and sorcerers should be pyrokinetics (since that’s already sorta their thing).

[HPisBS]

I personally think fighters should specialize in Telekinesis and sorcerers should be pyrokinetics (since that’s already sorta their thing).

Pyrokinetics as a psychic ability just seems strange to me. I know it's a thing; I just don't really see it. At least not as much as most of those others I listed. But if it needs to be included, then it really does seem Sorcerer-like. Though, Sorcs already have the Draconic Origin to focus on fire (and maybe there'll be a better version of Phoeonix Origin eventually)....

Without any "elemental" mind abilities, telekinesis seems the best match for Sorcerer's raw power theme.

Whereas Fighters rely on their own bodies more than any other class (save for Barbarian, which feels distinctly non-psychic), so biokinesis seems most appropriate for them.

Granted, that doesn't leave a clear jedi force-pusher analog, but still.


Edit:
If we had Sorcs = pyros, Fighters = telekinesis, and Monks = biokinesis, then I guess that would leave perspicacity / precognition for Rangers? After all, they're supposed to be all in-tune with nature (their surroundings), right?

[WadeWay33]

Pyrokinetics as a psychic ability just seems strange to me. I know it's a thing; I just don't really see it. At least not as much as most of those others I listed. But if it needs to be included, then it really does seem Sorcerer-like. Though, Sorcs already have the Draconic Origin to focus on fire (and maybe there'll be a better version of Phoeonix Origin eventually)....

Without any "elemental" mind abilities, telekinesis seems the best match for Sorcerer's raw power theme.

Whereas Fighters rely on their own bodies more than any other class (save for Barbarian, which feels distinctly non-psychic), so biokinesis seems most appropriate for them.

Granted, that doesn't leave a clear jedi force-pusher analog, but still.


Edit:
If we had Sorcs = pyros, Fighters = telekinesis, and Monks = biokinesis, then I guess that would leave perspicacity / precognition for Rangers? After all, they're supposed to be all in-tune with nature (their surroundings), right?

Yeah, that sounds right. I feel as if all those bases were covered by subclasses, we could use the rest for a Psion. I might be biased on pyrokinetics because of that one book (I am struggling on the name) is where two telepaths have a pyrokinetic child.

[ff7hero]

Yeah, that sounds right. I feel as if all those bases were covered by subclasses, we could use the rest for a Psion. I might be biased on pyrokinetics because of that one book (I am struggling on the name) is where two telepaths have a pyrokinetic child.

Stephen King's Firestarter? Decent movie, too.

[Lucas Yew]

They still didn't ditch that out-of-genre V/S component (snort) from "psionics" again... (facepalm)

[Willie the Duck]

The difference is, for me though, that Seances and Ouiji Boards are not generally what people are referring to when they are referring to Psionics in a fantasy setting.

Two of the iconic bits of 19-20th century mysticism tradition that likely inspired D&D psionics (and shape the connection with orientalism in the first place) don't qualify? I mean, you are not wrong, in that psionics, despite being introduced one year after the game was invented, ran into a system where the magic user class could already do all iconic types of magic (including these, and telekinesis, and teleportation...). However, we're quickly running into a 'I'll know it when I see it' situation.

And I think this right here is the largest stumbling block. I don't think there is a huge amount of commonality to expectations regarding psionics in a fantasy setting.

[diplomancer]

They still didn't ditch that out-of-genre V/S component (snort) from "psionics" again... (facepalm)

Until they create a full fledged psionic system and class, they can't do it without stepping all over the subtle spell metamagic. It might even be one of the reasons they assigned the psionic subclass to sorcerers.

As to the discussion about the flavor of psionics... "de gustibus non est disputandum". If you feel that their flavor is monk-related, good, other people won't convince you otherwise, and vice-versa.

[Reynaerde]

Just a quick thought: shouldn't the psionic discovery ability (psionic soul sorcerer) specify that it can only give you spells known for which you have sorcerer spell slots available? Or do you think it is intended that a psionic soul sorcerer 1/ bard 12 can learn 7th level spells this way?

[Cry Havoc]

They still didn't ditch that out-of-genre V/S component (snort) from "psionics" again... (facepalm)

Yeah because you never see mentalists waving their hands in peoples faces and telling them that 'these arent the droids you're looking for' or thrusting their hands out to force push people away, or squeezing two fingers together to choke them with their minds and so forth.

I can get on board with Somatic or even Verbal (Im looking at you Dune) components for Mentalist stuff.

[Segev]

Yeah because you never see mentalists waving their hands in peoples faces and telling them that 'these arent the droids you're looking for' or thrusting their hands out to force push people away, or squeezing two fingers together to choke them with their minds and so forth.

I can get on board with Somatic or even Verbal (Im looking at you Dune) components for Mentalist stuff.

Yeah, but if you're going to use that as your source material, you have to abandon the notion that everybody recognizes hand-waving as magic. The flying elephant-pixie was scoffing at the notion of Jedi Mind Tricks, not offended that they'd been tried. Yes, he's immune, but if you're using the source material, belief in the powers is almost considered superstition. So a guy doing a simple hand-wave while saying something won't have people up in arms over how he just cast charm person; they'll have him being laughed at for being so superstitious.

It's one of those things that you have to be careful of. If you're pulling from a particular source to justify something, you have to also pull accompanying genre conventions along or you wind up distorting it into something it isn't.

[diplomancer]

Yeah, but if you're going to use that as your source material, you have to abandon the notion that everybody recognizes hand-waving as magic. The flying elephant-pixie was scoffing at the notion of Jedi Mind Tricks, not offended that they'd been tried. Yes, he's immune, but if you're using the source material, belief in the powers is almost considered superstition. So a guy doing a simple hand-wave while saying something won't have people up in arms over how he just cast charm person; they'll have him being laughed at for being so superstitious.

It's one of those things that you have to be careful of. If you're pulling from a particular source to justify something, you have to also pull accompanying genre conventions along or you wind up distorting it into something it isn't.

Yes, but this whole "all casting is recognizable by 'the average man' and considered to be a possible aggression" is nowhere in the game either, just a lot of DMs prefer to play it so. It's a setting assumption, not a game assumption.

[Segev]

Yes, but this whole "all casting is recognizable by 'the average man' and considered to be a possible aggression" is nowhere in the game either, just a lot of DMs prefer to play it so. It's a setting assumption, not a game assumption.

Fair, but it also means that, if you're going to justify something that isn't supposed to be obvious to every Joe Shmoe who sees it happen as having something that DMs commonly use to make something treated as obvious, you need to include direction as to how it's meant to be seen. Just guidance, not a hard rule, but you need to provide it so that DMs know the expectation of the writer.

[pragma]

Hey folks,

I know that we had a few simulated analyses of how long a psi die would last on the first page. I just wanted to weigh in to add that the duration of a psi die is a textbook random process that is best modeled by a Markov Chain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_chain . I've sketched one out a Markov chain for a d6 using some overloaded arrows for the state transition probabilities below.

Absorbing 0 state <-- 0.25 -- d4 state: 0.5 stay here <-- 0.166 ---- 0.25 --> d6 state: 0.833 stay here.

Therefore the transition matrix is [0.833 0.166 0.00; 0.25 0.50 0.25; 0 0 1] and the starting vector [1; 0; 0]. Q, the self-transition matrix, is in the upper left: [0.833, 0.166; 0.25; 0.50]. Inverting I-Q gives us the number of expected visits to each state, and we see 12 expected visits to the d6 state and 6 expected visits to the d4 state before absorption. This disagrees with the simulations on page 1 (which predicted about double this survival time), but it can be tough to simulate probabilistic outcomes accurately, and I wonder if the simulations just weren't run long enough to converge to this answer.

In summary, expected value of the number of psi uses you get starting with a d6 die is 18.

[Segev]

Hey folks,

I know that we had a few simulated analyses of how long a psi die would last on the first page. I just wanted to weigh in to add that the duration of a psi die is a textbook random process that is best modeled by a Markov Chain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_chain . I've sketched one out a Markov chain for a d6 using some overloaded arrows for the state transition probabilities below.

Absorbing 0 state <-- 0.25 -- d4 state: 0.5 stay here <-- 0.166 ---- 0.25 --> d6 state: 0.833 stay here.

Therefore the transition matrix is [0.833 0.166 0.00; 0.25 0.50 0.25; 0 0 1] and the starting vector [1; 0; 0]. Q, the self-transition matrix, is in the upper left: [0.833, 0.166; 0.25; 0.50]. Inverting I-Q gives us the number of expected visits to each state, and we see 12 expected visits to the d6 state and 6 expected visits to the d4 state before absorption. This disagrees with the simulations on page 1 (which predicted about double this survival time), but it can be tough to simulate probabilistic outcomes accurately, and I wonder if the simulations just weren't run long enough to converge to this answer.

In summary, expected value of the number of psi uses you get starting with a d6 die is 18.

Lovely analysis; thanks for doing and sharing it. Markov decision processes are fun.

18 uses is actually quite a few, and probably enough that one can feel secure in using it "for fun" rather than having to always save it for serious matters, let alone for the Bigger Spider that might be in the next fight.


One thing to point out, though: the Monte Carlo simulations on page one might have double the expected value because they're taking into account the presence of the 1-per-day bonus action to refresh the die. Which, if you didn't account for that in your Markov calculation, would exactly double expected uses to 36, assuming optimal use of the refresh (i.e. after first hitting the absorbing state).

[TwrLrd]

So possibly 36 uses for a whole day? Obviously thats average and doesn't mean you wont have bad days, but I can't say you'll remember the good ones, because even on average you won't go over 36 unless you're spamming when its a 1d6 nevermind whatever the 1d12 is. At a higher psi die you could quite comfortably say you're going to blow out, shrink the die for your bigger powers, replenish and then go on for the rest of the day. You could even blow out twice and stop at 1d6 to get you through the rest of the day. Though I can still see the die being spammed alot on the fighter definitely and sorcerer if they're trying to be damage centric.

@Seeing magic mojo happening. I would say average joes, peasants etc. would be allowed to be superstitious, insightful and resentful/suspicious of well to do adventurers to identify when they're doing something that isn't the locally expected greeting/communication/minding-your-own-business and may well harbour ill intent in whatever they're doing. Obviously setting dependent though.

For psionic abilties, components seem to only apply when a psionic soul is casting a spell from his spell slots. I think its reasonable to say GMs would happily allow players to replace making verbal and somatic gestures with their powers being the ones to create noise and a light show as they amp up. I generally always assume someone casting spells is making a light show regardless of the components unless they're actively suppressing components like sorcerers can. Who doesn't like a flashy light show anyway?

For preferred subclass focuses...

Barbarian - Wild raging psionics

It'd just be icing on the cake if something like this could be pulled off, also creates an excuse for intelligent barbarians that can read minds and not books. No particular focus just the desire to see one dialled up to 11, maybe a telepath who makes his allies go into a rage? On a more serious note, some out of combat ability for the barbarian in a subclass would be nice to see like on the psi-knight.

Bards - Fortune teller

This is purely a fun one, I don't think they'll do a precog power set as they mentioned it but didn't even put a feat for it in. Most of the subclasses already get a telepathy power of some sort so of the remaining classes this is the one I'd expect to specialise in the field if they wanted to do that.

Fighter - Telekinesis

I don't see it changing and it works for fighter as it really opens up some out of combat utility. I'd just like it to be a bit cheaper to move around small items especially when a feat of the same power category gives mage hand.

Monks - Body Enchancement

We've already seen an ability in the feats for this category so a subclass on it would probably go here and monks have a strong theme of mind and body.

Rogue - Versatile

Rogues could easily specialise depending on what their gig is, but powers that help sneaking and getting to places and then stabbing people's minds works just fine.

Sorcerer - Versatile/Choice

Their psionic focus is creating spell slots, so to me their powers are things using leftover psionic power after creating their spell slots. So they should be related to the style of spellcaster they are (choice) or tricks they pick up to assist adventuring (versatile). Their style right now is versatile mostly I'd like it to revisit psychic sorcery (make it more reliable) and the damaging abilities, but I'm mostly happy with the subclass' focus.

[Mehangel]

I am disappointed that WotC is yet again trying to force the soulknife as a rogue subclass, when it would fit better as a monk subclass.

I don't see the need to introduce yet another subsystem for psionics, when they could simply utilize ki. By having Psionics be powered by ki, you would be maintaining the 'monks are psionic' aspect that has been hinted at, if not directly stated in past editions. Additionally, by using ki, we can maintain the separation of magic/Psionics that is essential for key settings (namely Dark Sun), without requiring massive spell lists.

Finally, by having other psionic classes/subclasses use ki, you are inadvertently giving the monk a much needed boost, as it could expand their ki powers via multiclassing.

[Segev]

I am disappointed that WotC is yet again trying to force the soulknife as a rogue subclass, when it would fit better as a monk subclass.

No, the soulknife has always, since 3.0, been more a fighter or rogue-like class. Literally the only monk-like thing it traditionally has is some potential use for Wis as a secondary stat.

I don't see the need to introduce yet another subsystem for psionics, when they could simply utilize ki. By having Psionics be powered by ki, you would be maintaining the 'monks are psionic' aspect that has been hinted at, if not directly stated in past editions. Additionally, by using ki, we can maintain the separation of magic/Psionics that is essential for key settings (namely Dark Sun), without requiring massive spell lists.

Finally, by having other psionic classes/subclasses use ki, you are inadvertently giving the monk a much needed boost, as it could expand their ki powers via multiclassing.

Eh, I think you'll find the "monks are psionic" debate has been settled by "agree to disagree," at least in this thread. Not saying you can't make a connection if you want, but you're not going to find even plurality agreement on the issue, at least not here.

I, personally, am glad psionics is its own subsystem. I would be...dissatisfied...if it were just monks. At least as dissatisfied as if psionics were just what PF did with psychic magic, and treated just like spells. (I want at least as much distinction as 3.5 psionics gives: a different resource.)

[Luccan]

For preferred subclass focuses...

Barbarian - Wild raging psionics

It'd just be icing on the cake if something like this could be pulled off, also creates an excuse for intelligent barbarians that can read minds and not books. No particular focus just the desire to see one dialled up to 11, maybe a telepath who makes his allies go into a rage? On a more serious note, some out of combat ability for the barbarian in a subclass would be nice to see like on the psi-knight.

Bards - Fortune teller

This is purely a fun one, I don't think they'll do a precog power set as they mentioned it but didn't even put a feat for it in. Most of the subclasses already get a telepathy power of some sort so of the remaining classes this is the one I'd expect to specialise in the field if they wanted to do that.

Fighter - Telekinesis

I don't see it changing and it works for fighter as it really opens up some out of combat utility. I'd just like it to be a bit cheaper to move around small items especially when a feat of the same power category gives mage hand.

Monks - Body Enchancement

We've already seen an ability in the feats for this category so a subclass on it would probably go here and monks have a strong theme of mind and body.

Rogue - Versatile

Rogues could easily specialise depending on what their gig is, but powers that help sneaking and getting to places and then stabbing people's minds works just fine.

Sorcerer - Versatile/Choice

Their psionic focus is creating spell slots, so to me their powers are things using leftover psionic power after creating their spell slots. So they should be related to the style of spellcaster they are (choice) or tricks they pick up to assist adventuring (versatile). Their style right now is versatile mostly I'd like it to revisit psychic sorcery (make it more reliable) and the damaging abilities, but I'm mostly happy with the subclass' focus.

So, I don't have a problem with classes getting psionic subclasses ( I prefer it, actually, since I think it will help integrate the concept) but I'm just not super into the ones in this UA and the announcement of abandoning the Mystic entirely is disappointing since I really want a Psion class.

That said, a couple other ideas:

Cleric-Mind Domain
Like some gods encourage physical aptitude, other encourage mental acquity. I see this as a sort of mind-over-matter focused subclass, tanky despite not getting heavy armor proficiency (or maybe they would). A few powers to exert will over others and to reduce or ignore some damage or effects.

Paladin-Oath of Evolution (might need a better name)
Dedicated to reaching their mental peak, as well as assisting others in finding their's. I see it as a kind of neutral oath, where you could use it either as "I help people by helping them get stronger (psychically!)" or "The (mentally) strong are superior". Psychic defenses would be big on this one, of course, but I also picture at as having some active powers with the gimmick that it could gift those abilities to others

[Damon_Tor]

So, I don't have a problem with classes getting psionic subclasses ( I prefer it, actually, since I think it will help integrate the concept) but I'm just not super into the ones in this UA and the announcement of abandoning the Mystic entirely is disappointing since I really want a Psion class.

The fact that they killed the psychic wizard subclass makes it seem extremely likely that a Psion class is on the way. It won't be much like the Mystic, in no small part because they will no longer be attempting to fit every single psionic character is into that one class.

[Luccan]

The fact that they killed the psychic wizard subclass makes it seem extremely likely that a Psion class is on the way. It won't be much like the Mystic, in no small part because they will no longer be attempting to fit every single psionic character is into that one class.

Part of the reason I don't like these subclasses is the new die mechanic. I may warm up to it over time, I've done so before, but I suspect there's gonna be a push from WotC for 5e to do Psionics "its own way", which would result in it probably not being what I'm hoping for anyway.

[Segev]

Part of the reason I don't like these subclasses is the new die mechanic. I may warm up to it over time, I've done so before, but I suspect there's gonna be a push from WotC for 5e to do Psionics "its own way", which would result in it probably not being what I'm hoping for anyway.

Well, the dΨ is definitely "its own way." They clearly didn't want to just re-do power points.

So, I think you're right. They already have "its own way" that they have in mind, so unless this gets resoundingly rejected, the dΨ's probably the core unifying mechanic we'll see for 5e psionics. (Makes me vaguely wonder what people's comments in 6e will be about how the dΨ was so integral to the feel, and how they hope to see it again, or if there will be cursing and gnashing of teeth hoping for something different, or a return to 2e, maybe.)

[Zevox]

So, I don't have a problem with classes getting psionic subclasses ( I prefer it, actually, since I think it will help integrate the concept) but I'm just not super into the ones in this UA and the announcement of abandoning the Mystic entirely is disappointing since I really want a Psion class.

Indeed. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see them trying to do Psychic Warrior and Soulknife as Fighter/Rogue subclasses respectively - those both fit and are what I'd hope to see done with those, and I'd want to see those specifically in any 5E version of Psionics. But those are secondary, ultimately. The centerpiece of Psionics to me, the fulcrum around which it all turns, is the Psion class itself. And in recent UAs, I am at best seeing nothing of that (if you assume the Wizard and Sorcerer subclasses are not supposed to be the Psion), at worst seeing something I very much don't like (if you assume they are).

To me, there's a few boxes that have to be ticked for something to recognizably be the Psion class:
- Caster class, meaning they're physically frail and focused on using their psychic powers for everything.
- Intelligence is their primary stat.
- Distinct from magic, both lore/flavor-wise and mechanically.
- Powers are entirely mental in origin and nature (i.e. there's no spell components or spellbooks involved; most powers are more in the vein of telekinesis, telepathy, or mind-affecting abilities; any involvement of their body is because a power augmented it in some way).

From there, there's a fair amount of wiggle room. I'd like to see some kind of point-based casting system, because I liked that in 3.5, but I'm open to them doing something else. I don't think I like the "psi dice" system they've proposed here for reasons I gave earlier, but if that were what we wound up with, at least it's something I suppose. But importantly, we haven't seen anything that fits all four of those points since the Mystic - which was flawed, to be sure, but a good starting point for a 5E psionics system I feel. The Wizard and Sorcerer subclasses they've proposed violate points three and four inherently by being Wizard and Sorcerer subclasses, and the Sorcerer one also violates point two.

So all of their work that we've seen on Psionics recently are lacking an actual Psion, which is extremely discouraging to someone like me. It feels like maybe I'll get a Psychic Warrior and Soulknife I can be reasonably happy with, perhaps, but that will be a consolation prize at best compared to not getting the main thing I hope to see from the addition to 5E that I've been most hoping for ever since the edition came out.

[Segev]

It seems to me that they're trying to lay down the core of a psionics subsystem, first. The dΨ mechanic. They're doing it with subclasses because they want this subsystem to permeate the game, not be confined to one niche class. In order to get the subsystem tested out in the variety of situations they wish, they need either to make a playtest-only class that apparently people will become too attached to OR will revile as evidence the whole subsystem is OP because the class can do too much, or they need to spread the abilities they want to test out amongst existing classes via subclasses in order to cover the breadth they want to see.

I expect that, if they get the kind of feedback they want and need to confirm that this works, or to refine it sufficiently that they're comfortable moving forward with the dΨ as the core of the psionic subsystem, they'll then build a Psion class around the dΨ.

We're witnessing a design process for a subsystem that's supposed to be more usable and re-usable than what sadly has become of 5e's foray into martial adepts - the Battle Master - so it doesn't become confined to a single class and is usable across the whole of the game.

That means the specialized class, though, has to wait for the core of the subsystem to be tested for robustness and utility, because otherwise it will be built around something that needs to change or can't be used except for that one class.

[Kane0]

Devils advocate: If Psychic Warrior and Soulknife used to be classes but are now being received well as subclasses (pending survey), the same rationale could be applied to the Wilder and Psion as sorcerer and wizard.

Edit: Then once you do that, what space is left for a class?

[Apogee1]

A little late to this thread but I noticed something about Psionic Discovery:

Psionic Discovery. You can unlock the ability to cast a mind-oriented sorcerer spell you donÂ’t already know. After meditating for 10 minutes (which can be done during a rest), roll your Psionic Talent die, and choose a sorcerer spell of a level for which you have spell slots and that is in the school of divination or enchantment. You know the chosen spell for a number of hours equal to the number you rolled.

Doesn't this mean there is now a way for a multiclassed spellcaster to gain knowledge of spells of a higher level than they have knowledge of in one class? As in a Psionic Soul 16/Cleric 4 might be able to use Psionic Discovery to gain temporary access to 9th level spells.

Regardless of if its RAW or not its almost certainly not RAI since spell level limitations are a main drawback to multiclassing, but its still kind of interesting. Actually, more viable caster multiclasses than just 2 level dips might be nice especially since warlock 20 looks even worse now that a half feat gives a better version of it, wizard 20 is terrible, and cleric 20 is just up to DM fiat and can only be used once every 7 days.

[Luccan]

It seems to me that they're trying to lay down the core of a psionics subsystem, first. The dΨ mechanic. They're doing it with subclasses because they want this subsystem to permeate the game, not be confined to one niche class. In order to get the subsystem tested out in the variety of situations they wish, they need either to make a playtest-only class that apparently people will become too attached to OR will revile as evidence the whole subsystem is OP because the class can do too much, or they need to spread the abilities they want to test out amongst existing classes via subclasses in order to cover the breadth they want to see.

I expect that, if they get the kind of feedback they want and need to confirm that this works, or to refine it sufficiently that they're comfortable moving forward with the dΨ as the core of the psionic subsystem, they'll then build a Psion class around the dΨ.

We're witnessing a design process for a subsystem that's supposed to be more usable and re-usable than what sadly has become of 5e's foray into martial adepts - the Battle Master - so it doesn't become confined to a single class and is usable across the whole of the game.

That means the specialized class, though, has to wait for the core of the subsystem to be tested for robustness and utility, because otherwise it will be built around something that needs to change or can't be used except for that one class.

Something that does concern me about what we're seeing with the subclasses has to do with the Psychic Warrior or Psi Knight (I prefer the former, but whatever). Assuming some level of parity with the Eldritch Knight, given the knew name, it seems like Psionics is going to be a packet of abilities handed to you that you don't get to choose from. This makes me worry about the Psion as well. Are we just going to have five or six "Psion powers", then three or four limited by subclass? Of course, if the Psi Knight name was simply chosen because someone thought it sounded cool then there's nothing worry about, but the similarity makes me think it's intended to be to a Psionic class what an EK is to a Wizard and that does not bode well for the Psion/Mystic in terms of diverse power selection.