MitD XIV: High In Protean

[Squire Doodad]

There are only two pictures of the ha-naga (which is more than most creatures). But do me a favor and watch this.

I'm just trying to demonstrate how the possibility for an unsettling reaction to a snake with a face exists.

I mean, it's still unlikely that a snake with a face would be something no one has ever seen. And also the way it was described suggests it was something meant to be particularly unsettling, something exceedingly unnerving. "Snake with a face" does this much better than "suit of armor", but it doesn't feel like it fits, personally.

[lio45]

I think strength required is hard to estimate.

Apart from the tower scene and Scruffy hitting the dog, there is Roy throwing the elder's spear into the wall and climbing on it.

What do you guys think would be an adequate strength for this.

I mean, you need that spear to STICK in a Wall, enough that an adult in metal Armour can climb.

I don't know if a machine (a spear shooting machine) designed exactly for that purpose could make that work.

My point is: the giant uses "comic physics" every now and then, not sure if calculating numbers from this is turning out too exact.

We don't need a precise estimate, just a very conservative cutoff. 30 is IMO absolutely unacceptably low. It's the point, though: it's been set via consensus to a threshold so low that anything below is a no go and anything that meets it is STILL a really poor fit if they don't, at the very least, generously exceed that absolute minimum.

One other obvious option of course is a non-D&D creature. In that case, we won't have a number, but it still has to be exceptionally powerful physically.
BTW, here's Snorlax's summary from Pokemon.com (reminds you of someone...?)

"It doesn't do anything other than eat and sleep. When prompted to make a serious effort, though, it apparently displays awesome power."



There are very few scenes that we can "take to the bank" when MitD is concerned.

Tower Scene is one of those - the clear, unambiguous, unmissable message is that MitD is either physically strong as ****, or else that he has some magical ability that produces the same result and that he activates without meaning to sometimes (being a youngster who doesn't master his own powers well yet).

[Hardcore]

"Disgusting" is not the word I would agree on. MitD's appearance make people feel funny, excited, throw up, and even find he looks beautiful (iirc). Perhaps weird, or queer would be better?

[Squire Doodad]

"Disgusting" is not the word I would agree on. MitD's appearance make people feel funny, excited, throw up, and even find he looks beautiful (iirc). Perhaps weird, or queer would be better?

Bizarre might work, but in any case we all understand the correct general idea of it.

[Mightymosy]

I am in agreement with the general sentiment of this statement but I tend to put more weight on the teleportation factor than STR (which fluctuates wildly) appearance (which we have gotten contradictory opinions on) and size (which it has been implied we should ignore.) I don't buy into the escape spell being anything less than a wish-equivalent spell and I think that should be the starting point for all potential candidates.

I can't debate personal preference, I can only show how the possibility for contrary opinions exists.

There are only two pictures of the ha-naga (which is more than most creatures). But do me a favor and watch this.

I'm just trying to demonstrate how the possibility for an unsettling reaction to a snake with a face exists.

Hmm


I get what you trying to say with the video.
I might agree in general, but I won't agree when it comes to a D&D world.

There being few pics of the Ha Naga I actually find a plus. Is it possible that at the time Rich decided MitD that there were no pictures available yet, by publication dates?
For me personally "have I been drawn yet?" or whatever MitD said at one point, indicates a hint to me.
I think Rich thought that MitD species was probably never drawn before (public), but he isn't entirely sure.

For me, the perfect fit to these clues would be something from old lore, something someone might have painted or maybe not. Something really strong, but Rich had never seen D&D stats for that monster.
Unfortunately, that doesn't help me come up with a monster that fits either :-(

If and old D&D manual without pics described the Ha Naga as really ugly or something like that, I might consider it as a decent guess before or behind Protean.

For me, right now I don't think either fits.
Protean is described with always moving eyes - mitd always having the same eyes would feel like a cheat to me (except when Rich used a Protean description where that was not the case. Maybe it fits then?)
At that rate, I (non D&D player), would much rather buy a 27 strength monster, for that matter, because these numbers don't mean anything to me. If it is much stronger than Roy and Miko, ok, it fits for me.

I like the Ha Naga moving, that is a huge plus for me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There being few pics of the Ha Naga I actually find a plus. Is it possible that at the time Rich decided MitD that there were no pictures available yet, by publication dates?

No, the ha-naga picture you can find in google searches was the one published next to the ha-naga stat block in the epic handbook in 2002.

As an aside, the defence for "a ha-naga would be disgusting if it looked like a flesh golem" is not exactly a selling point for the ha-naga, although it would do wonders for a flesh golem.

Protean is described with always moving eyes

[citation neeeded].
I am aware of the "roiling mass of changing flesh" description. I have never seen a description specifically for the eyes. Not that it would matter, for the reasons perfectly expressed by Ruck. But still, that's an assertion that needs backing.

would much rather buy a 27 strength monster, for that matter, because these numbers don't mean anything to me. If it is much stronger than Roy and Miko, ok, it fits for me.

Roy is siting at around 25 strength right now. 27 is not "much stronger" than Roy.

I like the Ha Naga moving, that is a huge plus for me.

Flying creatures do explain a bunch of issues with the lack of snow tracks, I'll grant you, but not the desert tracks. And if for whatever reason it wasn't flying then, snake tracks are not so uncommon that even Belkar would be confused by them. Oh, and of course, the Ha-Naga cannot invoke the "was carrying the table" excuse since it can't carry stuff while moving.

Grey Wolf

[Mightymosy]

No, the ha-naga picture you can find in google searches was the one published next to the ha-naga stat block in the epic handbook in 2002.

As an aside, the defence for "a ha-naga would be disgusting if it looked like a flesh golem" is not exactly a selling point for the ha-naga, although it would do wonders for a flesh golem.


[citation neeeded].
I am aware of the "roiling mass of changing flesh" description. I have never seen a description specifically for the eyes. Not that it would matter, for the reasons perfectly expressed by Ruck. But still, that's an assertion that needs backing.


Roy is siting at around 25 strength right now. 27 is not "much stronger" than Roy.


Flying creatures do explain a bunch of issues with the lack of snow tracks, I'll grant you, but not the desert tracks. And if for whatever reason it wasn't flying then, snake tracks are not so uncommon that even Belkar would be confused by them. Oh, and of course, the Ha-Naga cannot invoke the "was carrying the table" excuse since it can't carry stuff while moving.

Grey Wolf

These are a couple that came up googling:
D20srd.Org
"Alter Shape (Ex)
A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes). Whatever its present form, the protean retains all its own special qualities. "

Dandwiki.com
"Beyond that, however, their bodies exhibit slow, constant shift. A single eye might, over the course of several hours, slowly split into two eyes, then four, then a whole cluster of eyes that slowly re-merge back into a single one. Fingers might lengthen and thin, before growing shorter and thicker, or multiplying and splitting into duplicates. Skin is likely to change color in waving patches, or to ripple as muscles and organs beneath rearrange themselves. Scales might melt into smooth, wet skin, might begin to sprout hair, feathers, or fur.

This slow shift becomes quite rapid when the protean uses their natural shapeshifting to intentionally rearrange their body for whatever purpose."

Mind you, I never played D&d, so I don't know for sure if these descriptions are rulebook accurate.
I am saying that I compare them to the way MitD is drawn (always two yellow round eyes) and would think that this would essentially be cheating - or, as I said before, Rich using another description from another book.

I don't want to argue over this and try to change your opinion, I don't think this is useful. I don't want to change anything about your personal or the threads' list of top candidates. You use your methods and you pick your candidates, and maybe you are right and maybe not.

Why I wrote about the Ha Naga is because I find the speculation and the guessing game fun, and wanted to know more about the Ha Naga because if might sway my guess.

To me, the strength argument is simply not as convincing as for some of you, that's why I was willing to hear more about the Ha Naga. But the "revolting" aspect of the Ha Naga doesn't do it for me either, honestly, so for me personally the Ha Naga might be a close second, but Protean still fits slightly better.
But again, don't feel this as a request to change any of your lists or rules or votes or whatever. I really don't care about all of that.
I come here to see if there is a reasonable candidate so I think you guys found it, and for fun I toss in a guess for the guessing game. That's it.

[Quebbster]

I have less of a problem with the eye issue since the decision on what exactly the MitD is was made after the eyes were already depicted in the comic. Having them constantly change would spoil the guessing game.
One of my issues with the ha-naga is that the shadow cast by the umbrella doesn't leave much room for a serpentine body. The umbrella was added when the species had been decided, so another solution could have been used if the body type of the MitD required it. I suppose it could be coiled up and maybe moving through levitation but it seems more contrived than letting the eyrs stay in the same place.

[Squire Doodad]

I have less of a problem with the eye issue since the decision on what exactly the MitD is was made after the eyes were already depicted in the comic. Having them constantly change would spoil the guessing game.
One of my issues with the ha-naga is that the shadow cast by the umbrella doesn't leave much room for a serpentine body. The umbrella was added when the species had been decided, so another solution could have been used if the body type of the MitD required it. I suppose it could be coiled up and maybe moving through levitation but it seems more contrived than letting the eyrs stay in the same place.

That's a good point too, since a snake like body that can fit under an umbrella may well be even smaller, giving it dirt strength and making it so even the most comical benefit of the doubt wouldn't help. Is a size category determined by length or width for snakes?

[lio45]

At that rate, I (non D&D player), would much rather buy a 27 strength monster, for that matter, because these numbers don't mean anything to me. If it is much stronger than Roy and Miko, ok, it fits for me.

It doesn't suffice to "be much stronger than Miko", it needs to be strength high enough (in an absolute manner, regardless of Miko) to punch something through a wall (even when trying to hit as lightly as possible) and send it flying away.

That's a Ha-Naga deal breaker right there.

[GrayGriffin]

I have less of a problem with the eye issue since the decision on what exactly the MitD is was made after the eyes were already depicted in the comic. Having them constantly change would spoil the guessing game.
One of my issues with the ha-naga is that the shadow cast by the umbrella doesn't leave much room for a serpentine body. The umbrella was added when the species had been decided, so another solution could have been used if the body type of the MitD required it. I suppose it could be coiled up and maybe moving through levitation but it seems more contrived than letting the eyrs stay in the same place.

I don't think "coiled up" is really a good argument, since it'd be weird for it to stay coiled up while moving. Snakes slither, after all, and even if it was flying I'd expect it to be stretched out. Unless you want to say it's getting partially exposed every time it moves offscreen.

[3Power]

I get what you trying to say with the video.
I might agree in general, but I won't agree when it comes to a D&D world.

D&D world has plenty of creatures that are theoretically madness inducing, but we as normal human beings are able to look at images of and nonetheless come out just fine. Most of those are aberrations, just like the naga are.

As an aside, the defence for "a ha-naga would be disgusting if it looked like a flesh golem" is not exactly a selling point for the ha-naga, although it would do wonders for a flesh golem.

Well, there's still the Human faced deer from mononoke-hime, or all the videos of mutated livestock with "human faces" that you can find if you google "animal with human face."

Roy is siting at around 25 strength right now. 27 is not "much stronger" than Roy.

The class and level geekery puts Roy's magic enhanced strength at 29, because it's the "same as the frost giant." Despite that he still physically struggles to lift and throw a boulder his supposed equal lifts effortlessly, and said boulders are two size categories larger than giants are supposed to be able to throw in the first place. I dunno guys, I don't look at OOTS and see a comic actively trying to keep strength values constant, I see the strength being whatever it needs to be to serve the narrative point of the moment.

Flying creatures do explain a bunch of issues with the lack of snow tracks, I'll grant you, but not the desert tracks. And if for whatever reason it wasn't flying then, snake tracks are not so uncommon that even Belkar would be confused by them. Oh, and of course, the Ha-Naga cannot invoke the "was carrying the table" excuse since it can't carry stuff while moving.

You know, it's been bugging me for a while but we sure are putting a ton of faith in the knowledge of the tracker with 0 ranks in survival and a wisdom penalty, aren't we? Also "Can't carry stuff while moving" is a baseless assertion. Naga have tails, a mouth and telekinetic abilities. Some have face tentacles they pick stuff up with.

I don't think "coiled up" is really a good argument, since it'd be weird for it to stay coiled up while moving. Snakes slither, after all, and even if it was flying I'd expect it to be stretched out. Unless you want to say it's getting partially exposed every time it moves offscreen.

Consider also the couatl without wings. There's also that cartoony vertical shuffle they do in fiction sometimes. Or hell, maybe the MitD is Rattly.
EDIT: Also consider what a naga looks like in OOTS.

[lio45]

I dunno guys, I don't look at OOTS and see a comic actively trying to keep strength values constant, I see the strength being whatever it needs to be to serve the narrative point of the moment.

And what's the narrative point of the Tower Scene, in your opinion?

[Mightymosy]

I have less of a problem with the eye issue since the decision on what exactly the MitD is was made after the eyes were already depicted in the comic. Having them constantly change would spoil the guessing game.
One of my issues with the ha-naga is that the shadow cast by the umbrella doesn't leave much room for a serpentine body. The umbrella was added when the species had been decided, so another solution could have been used if the body type of the MitD required it. I suppose it could be coiled up and maybe moving through levitation but it seems more contrived than letting the eyrs stay in the same place.

Eyes:
If drawing them moving would spoil the guessing game, but your monster has constantly moving eyes, you can't use that monster, I guess.

See, that logic "if you can't succeed without cheating, then cheating is ok" doesn't do it for me.
If Rich had a Protean description that had "always shapeshifting eyes", he certainly would not use Protean and run with an excuse like "well, I paint it differently anyway because it would spoil the guessing game". He is a much better writer than that. Also, FALSE clues also spoil a guessing game, there is that.

He might have used a Protean description without that feature, though. Grey_wolf_c didn't know of a description with ever moving eyes, despite it being the first that comes up at Dr Google, and him running the MitD thread for years. I find it certainly plausible that Rich did A LOT LESS research than that. Maybe he had a very short description in an old edition handbook that would fit?

Which is also why for me the strength isn't so much of a drawback. Considered Scruffy and Roy at the Godsmoot, he doesn't really use realistic strength when he wants to emphasize a point. MitD is much stronger than Miko and Roy, really absurd strong. But maybe Magic is involved? Scruffy punches a big wolfshound through the air, Roy throws a spear into a wall to climb it.
Come to think of it: Thog and Roy crash Pillars with foot kicks.
Again, i don't play D&d, so I don't know what strength 25 or 27 means. But if a strong human is 20, then 25 or 27 cannot do what Roy and Thog did. It is implausible. Unless strength scales exponentially, and then maybe it is enough?
Roy can kick down a pillar with 25, maybe 27 is enough to punch someone THROUGH a pillar?
The giant's comments to me don't read as if he is trying to be overly exact with D&d math (although he kinda IS pretty accurate most of the time, it seems from discussions here).

Anyway, not trying to change the rules or guesses here, just saying why I guess the way I do.

[Quebbster]

My view on the eye issue is colored by my assumption that the MitD's species will be an integral part of his story once revealed. If the Giant had a great story to tell where a protean MitD played an integral part I think the eye issue could be overlooked. Plus, there's nothing saying the eyes could be constantly changing off-camera but always look the same on camera.

Regarding Roy and Thog in the arena I do believe the Giant said Thog used Dungeoncrasher rules to damage the pillars, that's why Roy had to goad him into bull rushes. I also think Roy's 29 strength estimate includes the bonus grom his belt of giant strength which he didn't have in the arena.

[Neponde]

Unless strength scales exponentially, and then maybe it is enough?
Roy can kick down a pillar with 25, maybe 27 is enough to punch someone THROUGH a pillar?
The giant's comments to me don't read as if he is trying to be overly exact with D&d math (although he kinda IS pretty accurate most of the time, it seems from discussions here).

Hypothetically speaking, yes 27 'could' be enough in the right circumstances. But the trouble is,the tower scene shows the MitD *effortlessly* blasting through the pillar while trying to strike *lightly*. Logic dictates that he must have a significantly higher strength than what is barely necessary.. Especially since 'narratively' that scene seemed primarily about showing how dangerous a threat the MitD is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Eyes:
If drawing them moving would spoil the guessing game, but your monster has constantly moving eyes, you can't use that monster, I guess.

See, that logic "if you can't succeed without cheating, then cheating is ok" doesn't do it for me.
If Rich had a Protean description that had "always shapeshifting eyes", he certainly would not use Protean and run with an excuse like "well, I paint it differently anyway because it would spoil the guessing game". He is a much better writer than that. Also, FALSE clues also spoil a guessing game, there is that.

He might have used a Protean description without that feature, though. Grey_wolf_c didn't know of a description with ever moving eyes, despite it being the first that comes up at Dr Google, and him running the MitD thread for years. I find it certainly plausible that Rich did A LOT LESS research than that. Maybe he had a very short description in an old edition handbook that would fit?

I use the description in the 3.5 Epic Handbook manual. It mentions constantly changing body as a whole, but does not specifically focus on the eyes. And once again, I direct you to Ruck's write up. He did a much better job than I can do to explain why it is not a case of "if you can't succeed without cheating, then cheating is ok".

Which is also why for me the strength isn't so much of a drawback.

Even though all this special pleading about how litle strength it took to punch a horse through a wall is indeed a case of "if you can't succeed without cheating, then cheating is ok"? Well, that's just weird.

Considered Scruffy and Roy at the Godsmoot, he doesn't really use realistic strength when he wants to emphasize a point. MitD is much stronger than Miko and Roy, really absurd strong. But maybe Magic is involved? Scruffy punches a big wolfshound through the air, Roy throws a spear into a wall to climb it.

But magic is not involved in the game of hitting lightly, in the case of the Ha-Naga. Scruffy had the belt of ogre strength AND didn't need to punch the wolf through a wall - the hole was already there, which means Scruffy's punch simply sent it flying, something doesn't take anywhere near as much strength.

But if a strong human is 20, then 25 or 27 cannot do what Roy and Thog did. It is implausible. Unless strength scales exponentially, and then maybe it is enough?

A regular human is 10. The strongest human is 18. The strongest human that has trained for years to become stronger - i.e. Roy - is 20-21. Roy, with all those gained levels, and improvements to his strength, and a magic belt of Ogre strength is about 25. And he cannot lightly punch someone through a wall. 27 is a mere 5% extra on top of the strength Roy has, and is nowhere enough to explain punching a horse lightly through a wall.

Roy can kick down a pillar with 25, maybe 27 is enough to punch someone THROUGH a pillar?

No he can't. The pillar had already been broken by Thog, and he was just pushing it over.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Ignoring the exact numbers, let's not forget this is a "hit as light as you can" contest, and we have no reason to believe the MitD is playing with the intent to lose, as Miko was planning. The implication is that without even trying, he is massively strong, whereas other massively strong characters like a Raging Thog put great effort into hitting others through pillars, for example. Which, to me, necessitates a ludicrously high strength score.

[Emanick]

A regular human is 10. The strongest human is 18. The strongest human that has trained for years to become stronger - i.e. Roy - is 20-21. Roy, with all those gained levels, and improvements to his strength, and a magic belt of Ogre strength is about 25. And he cannot lightly punch someone through a wall. 27 is a mere 5% extra on top of the strength Roy has, and is nowhere enough to explain punching a horse lightly through a wall.

Minor correction: Effective Strength in D&D 3.5 doubles every 5 points. Someone with Strength 20 can carry up to 400 pounds as a heavy load, for instance, while someone with Strength 25 can carry up to 800 pounds. When it comes to things like carrying capacity, being one size category larger also multiplies your effective Strength. (Being of a larger size category also gives you bonuses on bull rushing, which might be the closest rules equivalent to the MitD's "hitting game.")

I don't think this directly impacts the validity of anyone's current argument, but it does help to explain why a fairly minor difference in Strength scores might have larger consequences than would be immediately apparent. Heck, a Protean with 55 Strength (estimating here; I don't remember the true figure) isn't a little more than twice as strong as Roy (assuming his Strength score is 25); it's 64 times as strong.

[Qwertystop]

Minor correction: Effective Strength in D&D 3.5 doubles every 5 points. Someone with Strength 20 can carry up to 400 pounds as a heavy load, for instance, while someone with Strength 25 can carry up to 800 pounds. When it comes to things like carrying capacity, being one size category larger also multiplies your effective Strength. (Being of a larger size category also gives you bonuses on bull rushing, which might be the closest rules equivalent to the MitD's "hitting game.")

I don't think this directly impacts the validity of anyone's current argument, but it does help to explain why a fairly minor difference in Strength scores might have larger consequences than would be immediately apparent. Heck, a Protean with 55 Strength (estimating here; I don't remember the true figure) isn't a little more than twice as strong as Roy (assuming his Strength score is 25); it's 64 times as strong.

Strength is pretty weird like that – lots of different things get mapped to this one number, and the rates they scale at don't line up. Carrying capacity doubles every five points, odds of success on a rolled Strength-based skill check increase by 5% every two points, long-jump distance increases by one foot per two points, vertical jump height increases by three inches per two points. Swim requires Strength checks to avoid fatigue but the ability to run or forced-march are based on Constitution. That's not even getting into attack rolls – how does being stronger improve your aim, at all, apart from having enough strength to lift your sword?

It's not just in D&D either, that it's weird.

[3Power]

And what's the narrative point of the Tower Scene, in your opinion?

Rich has directly told us this. It's to establish the MitD as being a threat, combat wise. In the same way as the earthquake scene conveys that threat to the order directly.

Which is also why for me the strength isn't so much of a drawback. Considered Scruffy and Roy at the Godsmoot, he doesn't really use realistic strength when he wants to emphasize a point. MitD is much stronger than Miko and Roy, really absurd strong. But maybe Magic is involved? Scruffy punches a big wolfshound through the air, Roy throws a spear into a wall to climb it.

IIRC the person who came up with the math for the tower scene also concluded that a telekinetic thrust was the most logical means of launching miko that far. Unfortunately it seems like a lot of people here don't like the idea of a stomp being a tail slap or a somatic component, and don't consider hitting someone with telekinesis the same as hitting them with their body.

Ignoring the exact numbers, let's not forget this is a "hit as light as you can" contest, and we have no reason to believe the MitD is playing with the intent to lose, as Miko was planning. The implication is that without even trying, he is massively strong, whereas other massively strong characters like a Raging Thog put great effort into hitting others through pillars, for example. Which, to me, necessitates a ludicrously high strength score.

Also remember that at that point in the comic there was a gag of the MitD being a failure, to the point where Redcloak had him guard Miko so that she would be guaranteed to escape.

[Peelee]

Also remember that at that point in the comic there was a gag of the MitD being a failure, to the point where Redcloak had him guard Miko so that she would be guaranteed to escape.

As far as actual vs theoretical personality, danger, viciousness, etc., yes. You are absolutely correct. As far as using his abilities, not so much. He just doesn't.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And what's the narrative point of the Tower Scene, in your opinion?

Rich has directly told us this. It's to establish the MitD as being a threat, combat wise.

[citation needed]

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

Also on the eyes: if I'm not mistaken, the Protean can choose to attempt to maintain its form. If we assume MitD is doing that almost every turn, then that explains the eyes.
In either case, the Doylist explanation for the eyes is good enough for me. Having yellow eyes is an asset, but given how eye color works in OotS (humans have black eyes except for specific exceptions, when many humans would have various colors) as well as the nature of the guessing game, the absence of them is not a big issue.

It is, of course, possible that the umbrella will go away and the eyes will turn out to be part of a twisted arm gland or something, and MitD doesn't have actual eyes at all now that he can have expressions since he's out of the darkness. The eyes are not the main factor here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also on the eyes: if I'm not mistaken, the Protean can choose to attempt to maintain its form. If we assume MitD is doing that almost every turn, then that explains the eyes.

And also why he's so "lazy" - it takes a move action every turn to do, so MitD has only half the actions everyone else gets to do everything else - making him twice as slow as any other creature.

Grey Wolf

[3Power]

[citation needed]

Grey Wolf

Holy crap. This isn't in the opening post. I thought it was because the other quotes from the passage were there but it isn't. No wonder there's such a disconnect about this scene, anyone that doesn't have War and XPs doesn't know what he wrote about it.

Alright, here we go then, citation granted

The Monster in the Darkness plays an important role in this scene -- perhaps the first time it has ever done so. Prior to this, the creature existed mostly as comedy relief for Xykon's team. Sure, Redcloak and Xykon talked about how powerful they thought it was, but we never actually got to see it in action. Its childlike persona had likely led many readers to feel that he wasn't a real threat... and that needed to change. And so, I had the opportunity for the monster to display a little of its power without giving too much away by encountering Miko.

This was specifically necessary because of the scene I had planned for later, when Haley and Belkar need to retrieve Roy's dead body from the monster's tea party. I wanted there to be no doubt that the monster was a real threat when they encountered it. Moreover I wanted to explore the idea that the monster itself isn't really aware of all its capabilities. It tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails. It doesn't know it can cause an earthquake by stomping until a demon roach tells it so.

[Jasdoif]

That's not even getting into attack rolls – how does being stronger improve your aim, at all, apart from having enough strength to lift your sword?

It doesn't improve your aim, it increases the sudden application of force to improve your chances of causing injury through whatever armor your target has. As such, Strength opposing AC makes at least as much sense as having both AC and DR when HP are like a superposition of dodging and resilience does.

[Kastor]

For the Shout scene, the listed explanations are the spell Shout or Frightening Presence. Couldn't that effect also be made by Greater Command? It would be able to target both, and MiTD's presumed high CR would likely overcome their mid-level saves easily. Admittedly, "Stop!" isn't "Halt", but its just a slight variation. Haley and Belkar both immediately agree and stand stock still, exactly as the spell's effect.

Might that be the result of Greater Command or a replication of Greater Command?

And a better question is even if GC fits, does it really change any of the major candidates

[lio45]

Holy crap. This isn't in the opening post. I thought it was because the other quotes from the passage were there but it isn't. No wonder there's such a disconnect about this scene, anyone that doesn't have War and XPs doesn't know what he wrote about it.

Alright, here we go then, citation granted

All of that is obvious.

And yes, the goal of that scene was to establish that MitD is extremely powerful, i.e. definitely doesn't have anywhere near only a meager 27 STR (and that's even for an adult!)

[Darth Paul]

It doesn't improve your aim, it increases the sudden application of force to improve your chances of causing injury through whatever armor your target has. As such, Strength opposing AC makes at least as much sense as having both AC and DR when HP are like a superposition of dodging and resilience does.

To a point I agree. I believe, though, that Damage Reduction is meant to be a magical or otherwise enhancement preventing a certain amount of damage from every hit, sort of like the shields in Star Trek. (I never understood those either- if they have shields up at all, how can the ship be taking damage, and then the shields also be down a certain %? I suppose if the shields work on the same principle as DR, that's how.) There's also a specal condition to bypass it, right? That's how a werewolf has DR vs everything but silver, or powerful enough magic weapons negate most DR. It's an extra magical armor layer.