OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread

[StragaSevera]

Yet one of its victims is not.

Yes, that's why this victim can freely kill, toture and enslave people that lived in the same city as his long-dead agressors. ;-)

[Schroeswald]

Correct. The Weirdo has already admitted this in previous threads but refuses to let silly things like « being self contradictory » invalidate his opinions and therefore either A) acts like it wasn’t pointed out or B) advocates for the anihilitation of all sentient life.

Right on time for that warning I got from doing this with the Weirdo last time ending we have to have another one of these? Ugh, guess I’m recusing from this conversation, peace until we either move on or get this shut down like last time we got into one of these.

[The_Weirdo]

I’m sorry, are you suggesting the Azurites guillotine Redcloak? Because while I can, to a degree, get behind that, that’s quite the position shift, even for you,

No, even because I doubt he'll be dead by Azurite hands.

I'm suggesting the Azurites settle it with their leaders and with whomever remains of the Sapphire Guard. Redcloak had to put a proverbial orange gun to the heads of people just to get them on the negotiating table for equality; it would be a shame not to have the Azurite populace know all the facts about just why and how Redcloak came a-knockin' with his army.

Yes, that's why this victim can freely kill, toture and enslave people that lived in the same city as his long-dead agressors. ;-)

I don't particularly care what they do to Redcloak afterwards even if they are in a position to do anything, so long as the point of "Now you all know how I feel and why I did what I did" is driven home. So long as his message is heard. Not a one of the things he said in this comic is untrue, mind: goblins would be doomed to being cannon fodder if it weren't for his actions and his threatening the very fabric of reality for the equality other species take for granted.

[Dragonus45]

In that case, let the Azurite population know the entire context and deal with its own history as it sees fit. The prisoners are released, the goblins keep AC and what fallout happens within the Azurites from everybody knowing the truth is not Redcloak's problem.

That I can agree with. Airing those actions to the public is just the right thing to do, but even there it's worth noting

Spoiler: More O-Chulk is my hero spoilers

Show

O-chul already defeated the corrupt leadership involved, forced his way in, and demanded reforms to make remake the organization into the much better group we see today.

Most of the individuals Red Cloak would want justice on are gone at this point and has sort of already "dealt" with that history without a wider populace knowing the exact details. I think it's society would be fine.

[StragaSevera]

Redcloak had to put a proverbial orange gun to the heads

Hmm, I did not know that proverbial nerf guns are loaded with bullets that killed a lot of innocent people ;-)

[The_Weirdo]

Hmm, I did not know that proverbial nerf guns are loaded with bullets that killed a lot of innocent people ;-)

I mean, when you kill someone in D&D, you definitely nerf them.

That I can agree with. Airing those actions to the public is just the right thing to do, but even there it's worth noting

Spoiler: More O-Chulk is my hero spoilers

Show

O-chul already defeated the corrupt leadership involved, forced his way in, and demanded reforms to make remake the organization into the much better group we see today.

Most of the individuals Red Cloak would want justice on are gone at this point and has sort of already "dealt" with that history without a wider populace knowing the exact details. I think it's society would be fine.

Maybe. Maybe not. But still the people would likely be at least somewhat more understanding of Redcloak's actions and reasons. And would understand that their side was not, indeed, made of saints.

[Peelee]

Well, bearing in mind that Redcloak got victimized first

Source? I must have missed The Entire And Complete History of Stickworld, The Gods, And The Universe which by your own argument would be necessary to see exactly who did the first injustice and thus would be the sole party responsible for all things even remotely stemming from it.

[Fyraltari]

No, even because I doubt he'll be dead by Azurite hands.

I'm suggesting the Azurites settle it with their leaders and with whomever remains of the Sapphire Guard. Redcloak had to put a proverbial orange gun to the heads of people just to get them on the negotiating table for equality; it would be a shame not to have the Azurite populace know all the facts about just why and how Redcloak came a-knockin' with his army.

Again:

Spoiler: gdgu/htpghs

Show

There are only three SG members still alive:
O-Chul who, as mundane soldier, physically stopped the SG from charging into the homes of the very same hobgoblin making up most of Gobbotopia’s population and later deliberately let himself by grievously wounded to save their lives. And then only joined so he could reform the organisation with the full support (however aloof) of Shojo.

Hinjo who helped him do all of that.

And Lien who only joined after the O-Chul reforms and may not even be aware of the Crusades.

So I would say that the best way for the Azurites to « settle it » would be to give the first one a medal.

[The_Weirdo]

Source? I must have missed The Entire And Complete History of Stickworld, The Gods, And The Universe which by your own argument would be necessary to see exactly who did the first injustice and thus would be the sole party responsible for all things even remotely stemming from it.

I mean, the gods did the first injustice. And now they are being threatened.

[hroþila]

Source? I must have missed The Entire And Complete History of Stickworld, The Gods, And The Universe which by your own argument would be necessary to see exactly who did the first injustice and thus would be the sole party responsible for all things even remotely stemming from it.

In fact, isn't there a quote by The Giant where he explicitly says that it's impossible to know who started the cycle of violence between the Azurites and the goblinoids?

[dancrilis]

No-no-no. Could you explain to me plainly and clearly, why in your ethics it's OK for Redcloak to kill a lot of unrelated people, enslave the survivors, and then free them from enslavement (which does not erase the pain and suffering they got), and it is not OK for a paladin with Redcloak-like origin to kill Redcloak's family?

Technically Redcloak could say it is ok because he is bad guy (panel 10) and to maintain his alignment he needs to do evil things - where the Paladin with a similiar backstory would be being a hypocrite by engaging in such because such actions are evil.

i.e only evil people should do evil things, and if you engage in evil things society should brand you as evil (as it does for him but did not for the paladins).

[Peelee]

I mean, the gods did the first injustice. And now they are being threatened.

Again, source?

[pendell]

Well. Two mature adults talking out their differences like mature people. I gotta say, Giant, in this case you've outdone Tolkien. The Mouth of Sauron didn't do nearly this well in Return of the King when negotatiating.

I have a bad feeling this is going to go pear-shaped, because if they resolved all their differences here at this table and saved the world with a handshake it wouldn't be much of a story. I would consider it a better ending on some level, because we need more stories about problems solved with something other than violence, but we still have that whole narrative arc/three act drama to play through.

I think the breaking point is going to be the Dark One and the other gods themselves. I suspect that Durkon and Redcloak may find that, however reasonable and accommodating they are, their principals won't view things the same way.

Redcloak+Durkon against the gods to get them to accept a pact that the two of them agreed to .. that would be a dynamite story, but I suspect that isn't where this story is going to go.

Besides, we still have to get rid of Xykon and deal with the snarl.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Source? I must have missed The Entire And Complete History of Stickworld, The Gods, And The Universe which by your own argument would be necessary to see exactly who did the first injustice and thus would be the sole party responsible for all things even remotely stemming from it.

This would be my guess. Not much happened before and most of the current situation flows from it.

[Peelee]

This would be my guess. Not much happened before and most of the current situation flows from it.

We don't know what happened before - for example, did the gods themselves spring out of some injustice? If so, we can shift the blame onto whatever caused that, by The Weirdo Rule.

[dancrilis]

This would be my guess. Not much happened before and most of the current situation flows from it.

So it is the Eastern Gods fault as they were the only ones arguing.

[The_Weirdo]

We don't know what happened before - for example, did the gods themselves spring out of some injustice? If so, we can shift the blame onto whatever caused that, by The Weirdo Rule.

Okay. By my current revenge-ridden argument, Redcloak should free the prisoners and gloat. Mind, gloating is not, in fact, violence.

By an extremely forgiving argument, Redcloak should free the prisoners and no one gets to wreak punishment/revenge on him.

[Peelee]

Okay. By my current revenge-ridden argument, Redcloak should free the prisoners and gloat. Mind, gloating is not, in fact, violence.

Actually, by your revenge-driven argument, the prisoners should kill Redcloak and blame it on the primordial injustice. Goblins who revered Redcloak should then kill the prisoners and blame it on the primordial injustice. The family fo the prisoners should then kill the goblins and blame it on the primordial injustice. Continue ad infinitum.

[Fanatic-Templar]

Uhhh... I hate to tell you guys, but I don't really think the goblin nation needs permission to keep Gobbotopia. This is one of those times where "possession in 9/10 of the law" really fits. For example: assume that the remaining Azurites want their city back. Gobbotopia refuses. What, exactly, are the Azurites gonna do about it?

Uhhh... I hate to tell you this, but you didn't address anything in my post.

The Southern Gods have divine sovereignty over the territories of the South, where Azure City was located. The movements of mortals do not affect the divine agreements. The Northern Gods have no authority to give that territory to the Dark One, and we already know the Southern Gods are pissed about losing a large hub of worship. Your own argument works against you - the Southern Gods do possess the South and what, exactly, are Thor or these two clerics going to do about it?

Durkon and Redcloak are trying to form an agreement between two divine factions - and one of those factions has most of the power and is riven into subfactions and sub-subfactions. I have no idea why 'these mortals humans could/couldn't beat these mortal goblins' or better yet 'these mortal humans have/don't have moral superiority over these mortal goblins' enters into the equation. The negotiation thus far has not broached any concrete measures beyond 'The Dark One helps us close the rifts' and 'The goblins keep Gobbotopia' and neither of those have even been agreed to. Redcloak's primary concern, essential egalitarianism for goblinkind, hasn't been approached with any real notion, and I for one don't know how they plan to make it happen.

[dancrilis]

Okay. By my current revenge-ridden argument, Redcloak should free the prisoners and gloat. Mind, gloating is not, in fact, violence.

By an extremely forgiving argument, Redcloak should free the prisoners and no one gets to wreak punishment/revenge on him.

That would match The Giant's idea of correct action by breaking the cycle of violence.

Further, I never said that the Azurites deserved to be conquered—merely that it was the result of actions that some of them had taken. It was, in every sense of the word, a terrible wrong. The fact that a small number of Azurites inflicted harm on goblins years before does not in any way justify or absolve Redcloak from what he did. It's a cycle of violence, and the only "right" action would have been to break it—not continue it. Any sense of it being "fitting" was intended in the vein of dramatic irony, not moral rightness. I realize, after re-reading it just now, that I used the word "Karma" which is often associated with moral justice on behalf of the universe, but I meant it more in the sense of, "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."

[Rakaydos]

I have a bad feeling this is going to go pear-shaped, because if they resolved all their differences here at this table and saved the world with a handshake it wouldn't be much of a story. I would consider it a better ending on some level, because we need more stories about problems solved with something other than violence, but we still have that whole narrative arc/three act drama to play through. .

I think next page will wrap up this first stage of negotiations, with a "that went well," and a smash cut to Minrah sitting on a tied up Elan, elan desperately needing to add pear-shaped drama.

[Peelee]

Uhhh... I hate to tell you this, but you didn't address anything in my post.

I did - specifically, I addressed the part that I quoted. "Don't know how the Twelve would feel about having part of their domain given to the followers of the Dark One by the Northern Pantheon" was the claim. The goblins don't need to be given anything. They already have it.

[dancrilis]

I think next page will wrap up this first stage of negotiations, with a "that went well," and a smash cut to Minrah sitting on a tied up Elan, elan desperately needing to add pear-shaped drama.

Elan knows this stuff - if his Bardic senses tell him it will get messed up his thinking will be: is it better if 'the order mess it up' or 'someone else messes it up'.

Whatever he decides on that the rest of them should likely listen to him.

[Fanatic-Templar]

I did - specifically, I addressed the part that I quoted. "Don't know how the Twelve would feel about having part of their domain given to the followers of the Dark One by the Northern Pantheon" was the claim. The goblins don't need to be given anything. They already have it.

My mistake, I thought the inhabitants of Gobbotopia would be worshippers of the Dark One. You forgot to mention that they would be converting to the Twelve, but now that I have deduced you were asserting that, I agree with you. Though that's still a pretty unfounded assertion to make, given that Gobbotopia was founded by the Dark One's high priest.

[dancrilis]

My mistake, I thought the inhabitants of Gobbotopia would be worshippers of the Dark One. You forgot to mention that they would be converting to the Twelve, but now that I have deduced you were asserting that, I agree with you. Though that's still a pretty unfounded assertion to make, given that Gobbotopia was founded by the Dark One's high priest.

I am not sure what point you are making.

The Goblinoids (and by extention The Dark One) have Gobbotopia - as such they do not need to be given Gobbotopia.

[Peelee]

My mistake, I thought the inhabitants of Gobbotopia would be worshippers of the Dark One. You forgot to mention that they would be converting to the Twelve, but now that I have deduced you were asserting that, I agree with you. Though that's still a pretty unfounded assertion to make, given that Gobbotopia was founded by the Dark One's high priest.

I did not forget to mention they would convert. I have no intention of making that assertion. My assertion is that they already have the city. They don't need to be given the city. The displaced Azurites may not like it. The Southern Gods themselves may not like it. But what are any of them going to do about it? The Azurites can't take it back, the gods need The Dark One to stop the Snarl, so from what I can tell, they all just need to deal with it.

[Metastachydium]

Again:
There are only three SG members still alive

(Incidentally, that's not quite correct. In strip no. 413, page 2, panel 8 O-Chul makes it abundantly clear that „[m]any [of the paladins] are away” at the time of the battle – Ho Thanh is only one of them, unless we are supposed to somehow consider him ”many”.)

[Fyraltari]

(Incidentally, that's not quite correct. In strip no. 413, page 2, panel 8 O-Chul makes it abundantly clear thet „[m]any [of the paladins] are away” at the time of the battle – Ho Thanh is only one of them, unless we are supposed to somehow consider him ”many”.)

And the Giant has stated that not all paladins of Azure City were members of the SG.

[Metastachydium]

And the Giant has stated that not all paladins of Azure City were members of the SG.

Thanh was. What do we know about the rest?
(Also, you're fast.)

[Peelee]

Thanh was. What do we know about the rest?
(Also, you're fast.)

I agree, there is room for a GDGU2!