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2020-08-24, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
Don' have it handy at the moment (I should pickup the pdf sometime), but to memory:
Spoiler: SOD
Redcloak was clear that they would capture the gate and make things better for the goblins by threatening the gods, Xykon felt that they could use if to improve his lot also - that is effectively Redcloak's plan as he introduced it to Xykon, nothing said to the Dwarves changes that.
The Dwarves haven't for instance been told that The Plan is for The Dark One to get control of the Gate rather then Redcloak and Xykon.
Xykon could be pissed that Redcloak didn't include him in the discussions but nothing Oona and Greyview know likely changes his understanding.
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2020-08-24, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
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2020-08-24, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Northern Ireland
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
Maxrah calls it as she sees it.
"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper
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2020-08-24, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
To quote myself: „[Xykon] does know that Redcloak's (nominal or actual) goal is to make the goblinoids' life better through the Plan. He also does (or, at any rate, ought to) know that meddling with the Gates might bring about the end of the world. Redcloak did not say anything that incriminates him thus far.”
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2020-08-24, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
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- Australia
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
It sounds like a lot of their essentials (panels 7-9) come from monsters hunted from Kraagor's tomb, so I think they get quite a significant reward out of it. You don't get to survive in such a harsh environment by deliberately making things harder for yourself.
Heck, she even says the only reason she's helping is to ensure the hollow doesn't get bled dry.My bubble cannot be burst. It is impervious to physical damage.
Bugbear cleric avatar by me.
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2020-08-24, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2018
Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
If she's his cohort then at most three levels below his, so she'd be a couple spell levels behind him.
Also this comic reminds me of a quote from Bojack Horseman: "You can't just keep doing ****ty thing and then feeling sorry about them!" or something like that.
Redcloak's sunk cost fallacy is going to get him killed, I agree with his sentiments but not his implementation. I'd have said "execution" but that's likely to happen at some point given what we know about Xykon and the MITD
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2020-08-24, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Germany
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
Gods, I love Oona (and Greyview).
Can't the comic follow her from now?"If it lives it can be killed.
If it is dead it can be eaten."
Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
(Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")
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2020-08-24, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
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2020-08-24, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
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- Australia
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2020-08-24, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
My point is that Oona is unlikely to consider "We all die, but hypothetical future goblinoids get a nice deal" to be a reward.
Redcloak might be able to get her on board with "TDO blackmails the gods into improving our lot in this world," but if she becomes convinced that the gods really will destroy the world to stop Redcloak, and she sees that Redcloak knows this and is determined to go ahead anyway, then she has no reason to stick by him and every reason to sell him out. It's already been established that she feels no particular loyalty to the Dark One.
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2020-08-24, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
The same strip establishes that they only need it because they couldn't survive without in icy ice, and they only live on icy ice because dwarves won't chase them there. Sure, Oona likes her stylish yet functional mask, but seriously. Greyview has such a grey view for a reason.
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2020-08-24, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
I love how "only humans" is the really weird possibility
And if Oona's noticed, then it seems like there's a higher probability that the MitD or Xykon could notice soon (if they haven't already), so Durkon and Minrah are going to have to get out soon.
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2020-08-24, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
No, but she might find it's an acceptable risk if the symbiosis of her tribe with Monster Hollow is anything to go by.
Redcloak might be able to get her on board with "TDO blackmails the gods into improving our lot in this world,"
but if she becomes convinced that the gods really will destroy the world to stop Redcloak, and she sees that Redcloak knows this and is determined to go ahead anyway, then she has no reason to stick by him and every reason to sell him out. It's already been established that she feels no particular loyalty to the Dark One.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-24 at 09:40 AM.
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2020-08-24, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
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- Australia
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
It seems like the less risky choice though, doesn't it? When given the option between fighting to live in a nice place or choosing somewhere that's harsh and cold but relatively safe, they picked the latter.
I'm sure Oona would like to not be chased by dwarves, but would she be willing to take the insane risk Redcloak is, or see value in a potential future in which her whole clan is dead? I doubt it. Seems like they'd rather be isolated than endangered.My bubble cannot be burst. It is impervious to physical damage.
Bugbear cleric avatar by me.
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2020-08-24, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2015
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
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2020-08-24, 09:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
She chose having to fight monsters somewhere that's harsh and cold over fighting dwarves in a nice place. Sure, the latter might have ended in the tribe being exterminated, but the former only lets them linger on and it's far from safe.
I'm sure Oona would like to not be chased by dwarves, but would she be willing to take the insane risk Redcloak is, or see value in a potential future in which her whole clan is dead? I doubt it. Seems like they'd rather be isolated than endangered.
Anyhow, Redcloak does not intend to destroy the world. He's a litlle too chill about the prospect of that stupid Plan B coming to effect, but that's not his goal. I'd say they could talk things over with Oona.
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2020-08-24, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
OK, so the Monster should be coming out soon enough, with something like "oh! Xykon's back" causing RC, Durkon, and Minrah to collectively go "oh, crap."
I absolutely love Minrah here, but she's doing Roy's "knock back a spellcaster so they might have enough space to cast" manuever, which...really isn't a good idea? Redcloak's expression last panel reminds me a bit of Tarquin picking himself up after he falls off the triceratops.
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2020-08-24, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
Oooh! Panel 7 is a Babylon 5 paraphrase (from S3e22). I haven't see one of those since strip #911 panel 5 (from S3e21) - at least, none that I have identified as such.
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2020-08-24, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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2020-08-24, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Meridianville AL
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
Summon Monster is a full round spell (others have mentioned this). It takes all his actions on the round cast, so he can't even 5' step away, and it doesn't go off till everyone else has taken an action, and it can be interrupted at any time from when you start casting, to the start of your next round. Cast it in melee, you need to cast defensively in order to ONLY face a full attack from your opponent. The concentration check DC is 10+damage done, and the Hammer of Loki Sucks probably does a fair amount of damage.
Basically, it's a horrible choice to cast in melee, and trying it says Red Cloak is either so flustered he's making bad choices, or he's not used to being in direct combat, or he's so loaded on buffs and support spells that he's got almost nothing offensive. Or multiples of these at once.
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2020-08-24, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2018
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- Australia
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
There's inherent danger in hunting, sure, but it's generally a known quantity. Especially once you've done it many times so you know what to expect. The monsters exist to protect the tomb, so it seems unlikely it'd wipe the clan out. At worst they might take out some hunters which would make things pretty hard for a while, but I'm sure they have stores and a backup plan in case that happens. It's bound to happen eventually, so it'd be silly not to.
The point is it's nowhere near as huge a risk as the one Redcloak is taking. Living near Kraagor's tomb has some risk, but nowhere near as much. The fate of the clan would likely not be decided from a single hunting mission.
They probably could, but I think so could the Order. I think she could be brought over to either side. She does say Minrah brings up an interesting point.Last edited by Potatopeelerkin; 2022-07-19 at 02:02 AM.
My bubble cannot be burst. It is impervious to physical damage.
Bugbear cleric avatar by me.
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2020-08-24, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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- San Francisco Bay area
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
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2020-08-24, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
Well, he is a lost cause. Kill him and give the mantle to an actually REASONABLE goblin that sees the ACTUAL big picture. Redcloak is too far gone in his fantasy in his head or in his ego. He is no different than Xykon now.
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2020-08-24, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
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- Italy
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
Even if I think Roy was right, he was just talking about stopping the immediate threat. Fighting Xykon would have mean fighting RC as well, and I suspect RC (assuming he had survived the battle) wouldn't have listened them after the battle.
Also, but OOTS don't know that, without Xykon, Redcloak would have turned to Plan B, trying to destroy the gatemy first PC was a dwarven cleric
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2020-08-24, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by sillymel; 2020-08-24 at 10:25 AM.
See what I quoted here: Quotes from Fyraltari
Also this post from Fyraltari.
See this post from Mortsdeer.
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2020-08-24, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
You have to remember, this is not a weird thing to happen to team evil. They get attacked by adventurer teams a lot - RC recalls one time a bunch of druids came out of their office plant. If Xykon comes over, RC can just say, "yeah, a couple of dwarven clerics showed up spouting a bunch of nonsense about their god's mission to end our quest for control of the Snarl" and it'll be perfectly plausible.
No, I'd say this strip confirms the opposite - that she cast this spell herself. Not only because she says she's casted it, but also because if the source of the enlargement was coming from the hammer, she'd mention it when suggesting dropping it.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-08-24 at 10:26 AM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2020-08-24, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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- California
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
Another round of applause for stellar writing!
It's interesting how certain kinds of people care so much more about principles than they do actual people. So much belief in a system that if people suffer, it's fine because that system is the best system...and it's so great that if people suffer it might just be their own fault.
Those pretty words will sting Red Cloak for the rest of his life, I'm sure.
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2020-08-24, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
See what I quoted here: Quotes from Fyraltari
Also this post from Fyraltari.
See this post from Mortsdeer.
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2020-08-24, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #1212 - The Discussion Thread
And any plan where I lose my hat is... a bad plan?
Dang it, we got a Jagerninja here...
Redcloak has used it before.
The dirigible's going to go down in flames, you know."Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2020-08-24, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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