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2020-10-22, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
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2020-10-22, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Well, this can happen to any of us. It's my working hypothesis.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-10-22, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Before I can answer your question, I want to double check your use of the word 'throw'. You were evasive in our conversations before on a few points so its good to double check. I can't provide a correct answer until I know exactly what I am being asked.
In your question is the javelin still in the hand (the character has not indeed thrown) or has the character indeed thrown the javelin so that the javelin is obviously not in hand?
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2020-10-22, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
No, I have not been evasive. You have refused to be clear and keep trying to avoid answering it. The answer to this question literally cannot depend on whether the weapon has left the hand after the throw is complete, because the question is asking if the act of throwing the javelin at a target is an attack.
If you believe that whether the javelin has left the hand or not changes your answer, then please provide both answers. I will formulate the question two ways. Answer both versions.
- Assuming that the javelin has not left the hand after the "throw," if Bob throws a javelin with the intent and deliberate effort to cause the javelin to inflict injury upon a bandit, is Bob making an attack?
- Assuming that the javelin has left the hand after the "throw," if Bob throws a javelin with the intent and deliberate effort to cause the javelin to inflict injury upon a bandit, is Bob making an attack?
I will note that one of those is a ludicrous formulation, but since you insist there is a difference that impacts the answer, please answer both. Hopefully your answer to both will illustrate why you think the answer changes.Last edited by Segev; 2020-10-22 at 03:14 PM. Reason: correcting some sentences that shifted thought mid-way through.
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2020-10-22, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-22, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
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2020-10-22, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-22, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
You’ve accused us of evading or equivocating, but refuse to answer the questions we ask of you.
Again-feel free to define throw in your answer, but answer the question. Doing anything else, given how much it has been asked, is evading.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
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2020-10-22, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
The definition of throw has no bearing on the discussion on "mechanics" Stop trying to add narrative into it. We all (even you ) know what throw means, stop insulting us.
Is throwing a weapon at an enemy to damage it an attack(as it pertains to actions in the PHB)?
Yes or noLast edited by OzDragon; 2020-10-22 at 04:16 PM.
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2020-10-22, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
I cannot answer a question unless the terms have been defined.
I need to know whether throw means that the object leaves the hand as it does in english or throw has some custom definition applied to it.
I am entirely unable to provide an answer to the question until the meaning of "throw" has been determined.
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2020-10-22, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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2020-10-22, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
In the post you quoted in this, I gave you both definitions of "throw" you posited, and asked you to answer the question first assuming one was the case, and second assuming the other.
You have what you asked for. If you continue to refuse to answer the question, I will only be able to conclude that your poorly-formed syllogisms are the best you can do to articulate your argument, which means that your argument is logically invalid.
To prove me wrong, you must answer the question and thus demonstrate that you can, in fact, clarify your meaning.
Re-read the post you quoted in this message. "Throw" is defined by assumption at the start of each version of the question. Please answer both, under the given assumption for each.
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2020-10-22, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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2020-10-22, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
I cannot answer the question.
I need people to admit that they are using a custom definition of "throw" or agree to the english meaning of "throw".
So which is it?Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-22 at 04:42 PM.
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2020-10-22, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Have fun, stay sane, enjoy the madness.
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2020-10-22, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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2020-10-22, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
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2020-10-22, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Using the following definition of the word "throw," please answer the question that comes immediately thereafter.
If a character throws a melee weapon with the thrown tag at a creature with the intent of causing injury to that creature, is the character making an attack?
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2020-10-22, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Post your own definition of throw and answer the question.
You failure to answer suggests that your basic concept is faulty.Last edited by Mellack; 2020-10-22 at 05:06 PM.
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2020-10-22, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Are we agreed that that exact meaning of throw is the definition we will use going forward in this discussion and there will be no further equivocation about "throw". For a "throw" to indeed be considered a "throw", the object that the character throws must leave the hand and travel a distance, correct?
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2020-10-22, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
I take your inability or unwillingness to answer the question as indication that your logic is invalid, based on your inability to clarify the syllogisms you use when asked about them.
To prove me wrong, all you have to do is answer the question, using the definition of "throw" you yourself gave, which I specified I would accept as the basis for your answer to that question.Last edited by Segev; 2020-10-22 at 05:15 PM.
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2020-10-22, 05:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
No. My argument is that you are using "throw" in a custom way by house rule. This is actually the point where you concede that you are using house ruled definitions or agree to the english meaning of throw as I have laid out.
Are you conceding that you are using a custom definition or are you agreeing to use the english meaning of the word exactly as I have laid out from this point forward with no further equivocation?Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-22 at 05:30 PM.
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2020-10-22, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
I make no concessions. I have not used a definition of "Throw" out of alignment with the one you've given. I reserve the right to analyze your definition further later on, but I sense from what you're saying here that you will never answer the question, because you're hinging your entire purported argument on the straw man that I am not using a valid definition of "throw." Heck, what "non-English definition of throw" do you think I'm using?
Because you will never answer the question, I must conclude that you cannot validate your logic, because answering the question is an important step to validating your logic. Therefore, your logic is invalid, and your argument is wrong.
All you have to do to prove me wrong is answer the question. I have let you use the definition of "throw" you gave, and have posted no disagreement with it. I have given you more chances to answer the question than is, frankly, reasonable.
Why are you unwilling or unable to answer the question? Is throwing a weapon at somebody an attack, or isn't it?Last edited by Segev; 2020-10-22 at 05:36 PM.
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2020-10-22, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
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2020-10-22, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
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2020-10-22, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-22, 06:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
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2020-10-22, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Sure, the common english understanding of attack has been met. So this statement in complete isolation of other statements and any extenuating circumstances means "attack". Yes.
But of course, with regards to its context in the PHB and the discussion at hand we have to deal with attack in the context of two levels of meaning as something a character does and a procedure a player resolves.
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2020-10-22, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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2020-10-22, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
The character throws the weapon to make a ranged attack.
The character throws the weapon (the weapon leaves the hand and travels a distance at a target). The character attacks by common english understanding of the word which defines the state of affairs. Player applies rules in Making an Attack to resolve what happens with regards to the game procedure for making a ranged attack.