The Mandalorian Season 2

[Peelee]

But they were taken by the Jedi long before training occured.

When they were taken neither Padme or Anakin/Vader were consulted much less offered consent and the children were (my opinion at least) to young to consent.

Oh, you mean when Anakin was presumably dead and Padme was confirmed dead? No parents or guardians, and the Jedi took them to specifically not-Jedi? Luke even went to his closest family, for Pete's sake! Acting like this is standard Jedi kidnapping is certainly even further than whatever I was actaully expecting,so bonus points for creativity.

[Fyraltari]

I fail to see why people want him to be one when he himself does not want to be one.

That's probably because Mandalorian armor is the most recognizable thing associated with Mandalorians and Boba Fett is the most recognizable character associated with that armor. They look like the Bobba Fett people, not the Pre Vizla people. Also, how many of the named ones are bounty hunters, when SW most prominent bounty hunter is Bobba Fett. And his dad was a Mando. Bobba being a Mandalorian makes so much sense it's hardly surprising there's a bit of a Mandela effect. A Mandalore effect if you will.

Also Bobba does have significant Mandalorian heritage so it makes some sense to call him that in the same way that it makes some sense to call a first generation immigrant as being a [people from the country they were born into] even though they aren't legally a citizen.

[hamishspence]

Padme died maybe a minute after the second twin was born, and Anakin was on the Dark Side.

Plus the Jedi had been outlawed. Handing them over to Anakin would have been immoral, and handing them over to Padme's relatives would have been problematic, given that they want to keep a low profile - keep the kids off the Emperor's radar.

So they handed one over to Anakin's relatives (who were low profile enough for it to be practical) and the other to Bail.

EDIT : Swordsaged.

[Tyndmyr]

Shmi Skywalker lived a good decade after the Jedi pointedly asked her permission (and Anakin's, as he was old enough to have an opinion) about joining the Jedi, so there's one prominent one you missed. Also, you could have legit answered the question if you'd read Outbound Flight, where one Jedi Master decides to take kids without parent or child having absolute choice in the matter and, spoiler alert, he's not exactly the hero of the story.

A kid that young can't properly consent to anything, let alone becoming a child soldier. And his mother's alternative was having him remain as a slave, which is kind of a raw deal. Slavery kind of messes up that whole consent thing.

I was originally goin' for observing that the Jedi are prioritizing their own wants/needs over those of others, just as the Sith tend to do, but...honestly, when it comes to agency, Sith mostly seem to embrace their choice. Not a lot of unwilling Sith. This probably also works for pointing out that they're not so different.

As for Outbound Flight, I'm afraid I've never read it. I've watched all the mainstream stuff, played a few games(the KOTORs and Jedi Knights) and read perhaps twenty books from the EU, but that's honestly just scratching the surface of it all.

But they were taken by the Jedi long before training occured.

When they were taken neither Padme or Anakin/Vader were consulted much less offered consent and the children were (my opinion at least) to young to consent.

That's true. Although in fairness, the extreme difficulty of sitting down for a nice chat with Vader to obtain permission is an issue. Swiping the kids was...not entirely unreasonable for the circumstances. But it's pretty certain that Vader didn't want them swiped.

Luke even went to his closest family, for Pete's sake!

It is a wee bit odd that Vader never checked up on that.

[Keltest]

It is a wee bit odd that Vader never checked up on that.

Vader hated Tatooine, had no personal connection to those people and had no idea his children were alive. Why would he ever go back there?

Also, i dont understand why youre calling the Jedi apprentices "child soldiers." First off, Jedi are not soldiers and generally get offended when you call them that. there are SOME jedi who are soldiers in the Clone Wars due specifically to the fact that it is the result of a plot against the Jedi, but it is not universal to the order. Secondly, the children and trainees are not treated as warriors at all even when the Jedi are declared war on. Theyre kept in the temple where they learn to use the Force and the diplomatic and philosophical education that Jedi get.

[Tyndmyr]

The role of Jedi is fairly combat-heavy, pretty much regardless of medium. We see that presented pretty consistently.

And the kids are getting pushed into that lifestyle starting at a quite young age. Far prior to adulthood.

[Fyraltari]

Was the bit where Ben asks Owen to let him train a young Luke and Owen refused ever canon or did I make it up? I can't tell.

Vader hated Tatooine, had no personal connection to those people and had no idea his children were alive. Why would he ever go back there?

Also, i dont understand why youre calling the Jedi apprentices "child soldiers." First off, Jedi are not soldiers and generally get offended when you call them that. there are SOME jedi who are soldiers in the Clone Wars due specifically to the fact that it is the result of a plot against the Jedi, but it is not universal to the order. Secondly, the children and trainees are not treated as warriors at all even when the Jedi are declared war on. Theyre kept in the temple where they learn to use the Force and the diplomatic and philosophical education that Jedi get.

Ahsoka was how old when she led squads of troopers into battle again?

[Keltest]

Ahsoka was how old when she led squads of troopers into battle again?

I actually have no idea. I dont think her age is ever stated explicitly. She seems like she's in her late teens or the Togruta equivalent, though the non-linear chronology of TCW and the lack of dates makes it a bit hard to pin down.

[Peelee]

The role of Jedi is fairly combat-heavy, pretty much regardless of medium. We see that presented pretty consistently.

We see snippets revolving around a galactic Civil War (well, two civil wars). The Jedi existed for a thousand generations.

I am pressing X to doubt.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
The ones who went to a slave owning planet and just bought the useful kid instead of fixing anything?

One Jedi and one padawan, with two lightsabers between them, can’t really “fix” an entire society. No one expects them to. The Jedi are meant to keep the peace, not legislate social change.

Also, they didn't buy him--they wagered his freedom on the pod race.

Originally Posted by Keltest
…and Leia was never trained as a Jedi in disney canon.

We see Leia being trained by Luke in Rise of Skywalker, which is specifically described as Jedi training.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
The role of Jedi is fairly combat-heavy, pretty much regardless of medium. We see that presented pretty consistently.

There’s some skew here owing to the needs of the format. “Jedi patiently shepherding peaceful negotiations at a tranquil diplomatic retreat” makes for two hours of less-than-exciting viewing.

Originally Posted by Fyraltari
Was the bit where Ben asks Owen to let him train a young Luke and Owen refused ever canon or did I make it up? I can't tell.

Not precisely—Ben tried to give Luke the lightsaber and Owen evidently hit the ceiling. Ben may have intended that as a precursor to training, but if so, Owen’s reaction made that a nonstarter.

Originally Posted by Fyraltari
Ahsoka was how old when she led squads of troopers into battle again?

I think fourteen was the age that either Filoni or Lucas said at one point, but not positive on this.

And this reminds me just how irritating she was when first introduced. And for the next three seasons, minimum.

[Peelee]

And this reminds me just how irritating she was when first introduced. And for the next three seasons, minimum.

What do you mean, Skyguy?

Ugh. She was horrible in early years.

[Fyraltari]

We see snippets revolving around a galactic Civil War (well, two civil wars). The Jedi existed for a thousand generations.

I am pressing X to doubt.

Well, that depends, is The Phantom Menace a typical mission (barring encountering Darth Maul) for the Jedi? Because that was pretty violent.
And, well, they're called Jedi Knights, not Jedi diplomats, kicking arse sounds like it's part of the job description.

I actually have no idea. I dont think her age is ever stated explicitly. She seems like she's in her late teens or the Togruta equivalent, though the non-linear chronology of TCW and the lack of dates makes it a bit hard to pin down.

No, she's physically taller in Rebels and later TCW season than in the beginning 12-14 seems more like it. The Padawans are child soldiers through and through (and the clones are slaves but that's another topic).

Owen evidently hit the ceiling.

Ooh, new idiom. Also, thanks.

[Tyndmyr]

One Jedi and one padawan, with two lightsabers between them, can’t really “fix” an entire society. No one expects them to. The Jedi are meant to keep the peace, not legislate social change.

Also, they didn't buy him--they wagered his freedom on the pod race.

That is still essentially a purchase, albeit one with gambling involved. His freedom was assigned a rough monetary value, and a transaction took place.

And there are things they might have done if fixing the society were a priority. Perhaps his mother's freedom could have also been secured. Perhaps once they had returned, they could have worked with the other Jedi to go back and fix things. However, this does not seem to be a priority. And if an entire world of slavery isn't a priority for the Jedi, that kind of puts a low ceiling as to how just society is under them.

We see snippets revolving around a galactic Civil War (well, two civil wars). The Jedi existed for a thousand generations.

I am pressing X to doubt.

And the books and games and so on...there is an exceptional amount of violence depicted for Jedis and even for those who are merely Jedis in training.

Even those set fairly distant from the Civil War period manage to involve quite a lot of conflict, which sucks in Jedi and Jedi to be like a magnet over iron filings.

Peace appears to be more an ideology that they fight for than something they have an abundance of.

[Peelee]

And the books and games and so on...

Yeah, all those books and games in the same era of an entire galaxy at war. Oh, wait, there are the KOTOR games! Those are like 5000 years before the Empire, so new era of super violent Jedi, just because it's... Oh. An entire galaxy at war. Imagine that.

Yeah, I don't think that's the rock-solid refutation that you seem to think it is.

[Tyndmyr]

And when history is referenced or uncovered, how often does it too involve conflict?

How many worlds are existing in utter harmony, and how many have some long simmering conflict?

[Mechalich]

With regards to the Jedi Order's treatment of children, or in fact any major issue of social policy in Star Wars it is very important to recognize that Star Wars society is based on a vision of the past, like most fantasies, in terms of social organization. Specifically it's based around the social mores of the late 19th century, with all the geographic variation that implies. Characters like Luke and Han are from the 'wild west' while a character like Leia is from the seat of power (ie. Europe). If you change Luke's wardrobe he becomes a farmer from Nebraska. If you change Han's he's a smuggled on the Columbia River, and if you change Leia's she walks straight on to the set of Downton Abbey.

As such, it's not appropriate to judge the social systems of Star Wars by modern standards, because it's not a modern society. The idea of young children being given to the custody of the church by their families to be trained as monks was barely questionable in the 19th century - in some places, like Tibet, it was practically commonplace.

The really weird part about the Jedi is how a monastic religious order somehow ended up in the role of government police forces with, in many cases, plenipotentiary powers. It's an incredibly bizarre cultural/religious mash-up that sits both at the heart of the appeal of Star Wars and at the heart of its many problems.

Of course, in the specific legal context of Jedi taking force-sensitive children from their parents it's also important to remember that 1. Jedi were agents of the state and 2. the state takes children from their parents quite regularly. It is both logical for the Jedi Order to possess this particular authority and also nearly certain that it was only rarely used. The demography itself makes it impossible for it to have been common during the PT era, simply because the Order was declining drastically in size (from the Ruusan Reformation in 1000 BY to Episode I, the Jedi Order shrank by something between a factor of 10 to a factor of 1000).

[Sapphire Guard]

I'd go back further than that.

The Jedi are knights, and the page-squire-knight progression mirrors the youngling-padawan-knight progression.

As regards combat, they are taught to fight, but TPM is not a typical mission, it was intended as a peaceful negotiation, but went horribly wrong due to Sith meddling.

Are we really expecting Obi Wan to ask Vader for a permission slip to take his children? He choked his pregnant wife unconscious and murdered children.

Re Tattooine, I see a lot people saying the Jedi should have somehow fixed it, but no one seems to have any actual idea how they could go about doing that. Conquer Tattooine? With what army? Trade sanctions, on a planet full of smugglers? Assassinate Jabba? Then what?

[Mechalich]

Re Tattooine, I see a lot people saying the Jedi should have somehow fixed it, but no one seems to have any actual idea how they could go about doing that. Conquer Tattooine? With what army? Trade sanctions, on a planet full of smugglers? Assassinate Jabba? Then what?

Taking back Tatooine from the Hutts would involve a massive law enforcement campaign of searches, seizures, arrests, interdictions, and more to put the squeeze on Hutt operations until they ceased to be profitable, at which point the Hutts would up-sticks and go somewhere else, Hutt society being very explicitly in it for the (giant piles of) money.

Ten Jedi Knights, with a Judicial Department support team of 100 or so, operating for 10 years, could probably drive the Hutts off Tatooine. The problem is, it's just one planet. The Hutts gained control of tens of thousands as the Republic declined prior to the Clone Wars.

This map shows the traditional boundaries of Hutt Space, and this one shows Hutt Space at the outbreak of the Clone Wars. Tat giant green blob is massively demonstrative of Republic dysfunction. Palpatine, by the way took it all back in just a few years.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Fyraltari
Ooh, new idiom. Also, thanks.

Glad to help on both counts.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
And if an entire world of slavery isn't a priority for the Jedi, that kind of puts a low ceiling as to how just society is under them.

The Jedi are explicitly peacekeepers, and take on the role of warriors only when they have no other choice. Their mission isn’t to bring violent revolution to every world that doesn’t adhere to Republic law.

For all we know, there are senators aplenty working on the social issues of the Outer Rim. If the Republic enacts policy intended to correct these issues, the Jedi may become involved, but until then it may be counterproductive for them to freelance the situation.

Originally Posted by Mechalich
Specifically it's based around the social mores of the late 19th century….

Interesting theory, and one I’ve never seen before. Do you have a reference for this?

Originally Posted by Mechalich
…and if you change Leia's she walks straight on to the set of Downton Abbey.

Not sure if you’ve seen Downton Abbey, but Lady Mary organizes dinner parties, not rebellions. Different skillset, better wardrobe. Also higher standards for men.

Originally Posted by Mechalich
The idea of young children being given to the custody of the church by their families to be trained as monks was barely questionable in the 19th century - in some places, like Tibet, it was practically commonplace.

Still happens today.

Originally Posted by Mechalich
The really weird part about the Jedi is how a monastic religious order somehow ended up in the role of government police forces with, in many cases, plenipotentiary powers.

But they’re not really police at all—they’re neither military nor law enforcement, but able to address issues outside the scope of either.

As for how they found their way to this role, they’re the only ones who can perform it, because their brand of monasticism grants them access to abilities few others can achieve. In modern parlance, the position was written around them.

[Tyndmyr]

Re Tattooine, I see a lot people saying the Jedi should have somehow fixed it, but no one seems to have any actual idea how they could go about doing that. Conquer Tattooine? With what army? Trade sanctions, on a planet full of smugglers? Assassinate Jabba? Then what?

Their inability to actually fix problems would be a fairly fundamental problem with the Republic.

I mean, we can accept that they have no way to actually fix it, sure. But then we run into the issue of the Republic not being very competent. One problem or the other has to exist, and if you fundamentally can't fix massive human trafficking issues within your own borders(Hutts apparently do just about all crime, honestly), well, that's a pretty ineffective government.

The Jedi are explicitly peacekeepers, and take on the role of warriors only when they have no other choice. Their mission isn’t to bring violent revolution to every world that doesn’t adhere to Republic law.

For all we know, there are senators aplenty working on the social issues of the Outer Rim. If the Republic enacts policy intended to correct these issues, the Jedi may become involved, but until then it may be counterproductive for them to freelance the situation.

Well, if that's the case, then the Senators are extremely bad at it. Because one way or another, all information we're given is that it's not been fixed or even addressed significantly for quite some time, and the scale of the problem is pretty major.

As for the rest, the title of the franchise isn't Star Peace.

[Keltest]

Tatooine is not actually part of the republic, so im not sure why you would expect them to be able to fix the problems there. Theyre sufficiently removed that republic currency isnt even accepted there.

[LibraryOgre]

Taking back Tatooine from the Hutts would involve a massive law enforcement campaign of searches, seizures, arrests, interdictions, and more to put the squeeze on Hutt operations until they ceased to be profitable, at which point the Hutts would up-sticks and go somewhere else, Hutt society being very explicitly in it for the (giant piles of) money.

Ten Jedi Knights, with a Judicial Department support team of 100 or so, operating for 10 years, could probably drive the Hutts off Tatooine. The problem is, it's just one planet. The Hutts gained control of tens of thousands as the Republic declined prior to the Clone Wars.

This map shows the traditional boundaries of Hutt Space, and this one shows Hutt Space at the outbreak of the Clone Wars. Tat giant green blob is massively demonstrative of Republic dysfunction. Palpatine, by the way took it all back in just a few years.

Of course, Palpatine didn't bother with 10 knights and 100 judges and aides... he came in with a Star Destroyer, told the Hutts "Toe the line or be bombarded from orbit", and set up police in the few cities.

Overwhelming force can solve a lot of problems quickly.

[BRC]

IIRC, isn't the Republic basically the Space U.N? Not directly concerned with the governing of, even individual member planets, to the degree that the Trade Federation could literally blockade and invade an upstanding member state and Naboo needed to send a delegation to plead for assistance.

I don't think Tattooine was even part of the Republic, technically. I suppose the Republic could have put some trade sanctions on the Hutts or something (The Hutts are effectively a space-empire of their own, which means they probably plug into the galactic economy enough to be affected by such things), but see above: Smugglers and gangsters.

[pendell]

IIRC, isn't the Republic basically the Space U.N? Not directly concerned with the governing of, even individual member planets, to the degree that the Trade Federation could literally blockade and invade an upstanding member state and Naboo needed to send a delegation to plead for assistance.

I don't think Tattooine was even part of the Republic, technically. I suppose the Republic could have put some trade sanctions on the Hutts or something (The Hutts are effectively a space-empire of their own, which means they probably plug into the galactic economy enough to be affected by such things), but see above: Smugglers and gangsters.

Say rather a hybrid of a US territory and UK-style parliamentary democracy. One in which the central government has no army of its own but can call on the states to provide troops which can then be put into federal service. A similar system holds today for the US national guard, though of course we have our own active duty armed forces today.

The reason the Space UN analogy fails is because the Republic does not have anything like a security council; They are a one chamber parliamentary government with a chancellor elected from their membership. The chancellor seems to function as the UK prime minister does. The Senate is unchecked by any other governing body; by tradition they do not have a navy or an army but, when Palpatine convinces them they need one, they can create it with a single vote; there is no supreme court or constitution or other check to prevent them. This is one of the major flaws of the Old Republic. With the Senate able to make laws of any form without check or balance of any kind save what their own members will tolerate, they can convert themselves into a military dictatorship with a single vote. Which, essentially, they did.

Going on the 19th century analogy , imagine the Republic as the US as it would have been in about 1840 or so ; there is a federal republic which is relatively weak but operates as a mechanism by which nearly independent countries can collaborate for common goals. Kuat, Naboo, and the Trade Federation are all member states which give benefits within the framework but imposes obligations as well. There are other polities as well that share the continent but are outside the Union (Hutt Space and the Mandos in SW, the Republic of Texas and whatever Utah was historically).

Answering Tyndmyr's question: I do not dispute that the Jedi had flaws, especially in the prequel era when they were undone by those same flaws. Be that as it may, they certainly did a better job of galactic governance and providing agency to ordinary people than the Sith dictatorship of the Empire did, and I don't recall the Jedi blowing up unarmed planets merely to make a point.

As flawed as the Jedi were, they're still the most successful order of Force Users we've seen in the GFFA, both in terms of happiness for ordinary people and in term of long term stability. To paraphrase a real-world speaker: "The Jedi are the worst order of Force users except for all the others."

And I don't consider removing Darth Vader's children from his "care" as kidnapping. That's more like the local child protection agency stepping in to take custody of children of a violent, abusive father. Which Anakin totally was.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tyndmyr]

Yes, the Jedi are better than the Sith, making them the best order of Force Users....

But the broader conclusion is that force users are simply not good at governing. The Sith got an awful lot of power, but didn't last. The Jedi lasted, but were incompetent. Both are fairly major problems. Worse, they all tend to center on a few individuals. When someone stumbles or errs, everything goes awry.

The logical answer is to not depend on Force Users at all.

[Keltest]

Yes, the Jedi are better than the Sith, making them the best order of Force Users....

But the broader conclusion is that force users are simply not good at governing. The Sith got an awful lot of power, but didn't last. The Jedi lasted, but were incompetent. Both are fairly major problems. Worse, they all tend to center on a few individuals. When someone stumbles or errs, everything goes awry.

The logical answer is to not depend on Force Users at all.

I mean, the Jedi werent governors at all. They acted at the will of the senate and/or supreme chancellor when they got involved with Republic business, they didnt decide to intervene on their own. They didnt even have a voice in the senate.

[Peelee]

Yes, the Jedi are better than the Sith, making them the best order of Force Users....

The better of two specific orders. Force users don't have to be either or, and force capability does not have any bearing on ability to govern.

[pendell]

The better of two specific orders. Force users don't have to be either or, and force capability does not have any bearing on ability to govern.

It does actually. Force using grants precognition, and that would be invaluable for any politician who had the wit to use it effectively.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

It does actually. Force using grants precognition, and that would be invaluable for any politician who had the wit to use it effectively.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Always in motion inls the future. Everything proceeded as the Emperor had for seen right up until he got killed.

[pendell]

Always in motion inls the future. Everything proceeded as the Emperor had for seen right up until he got killed.

Before that he made the entire galaxy dance to his tune for a generation. And before that, the Jedi maintained the peace for centuries. It isn't precognition that was their downfall but their own blindness and biases which clouded their judgement , causing them to misinterpret what they saw or in the case of the Ep.III making them blind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.