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2021-05-02, 05:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
Editing your post is apparently against the rules
Last edited by SN137; 2021-06-17 at 07:17 PM.
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2021-05-02, 05:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
I'm confused as to how one would go about "Peacefully" requesting land, in that case? *scrubbed* You're right, *scrubbed* (In fact he was very possibly evil, though there's not a lot of evidence for that, outside his alightment post-ascension.) The point is, he didn't just invade. He appealed the human leader's sense of rightness to get a better deal for the goblins, and they quite literally stabbed him in the back, during a negotiation, again, as far as we know (From the Dark One's own words.)
*scrubbed*Last edited by flat_footed; 2021-05-25 at 02:24 AM.
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2021-05-02, 05:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
The context in SoD is that the Dark One united the goblinoids to address the pre-existing injustice, and that he was still magnanimous enough to give a peaceful solution one last try before he was betrayed, even though he had every right to just use force to settle the issue.
ungelic is us
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2021-05-02, 05:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
It's difficult, which is why people usually trade for goods they need instead of taking the lands that produce them.
Your best option if you want land for your nation is to find something your neighbors are willing to give you land for, such as military assistance, a truckload of money, or the ability to seal a god-killing monstrosity out of the world forever. Redcloak threw away a giant opportunity here, though it was for the somewhat understandable reason that he didn't trust Durkon.
If you want land for your people, you can try to split them in groups and send them to empty places or where other nations don't mind them. If this can't be done safely, then your objective is to build trust so it can.
Or you can raise an army and get the land by intimidation or force, but then you don't get to complain when the other nations raise their armies and fight back.Last edited by Telenil; 2021-05-02 at 05:58 AM.
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2021-05-02, 07:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
Last edited by flat_footed; 2021-05-25 at 02:39 AM.
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2021-05-02, 07:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
Just give up
Last edited by SN137; 2021-06-17 at 07:17 PM.
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2021-05-02, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
I still don't see the comic's narrative pushing the idea that what Redcloak is doing and did is right. I doubt we're going to reach an ending where the hogboblin army keeps occupying Azure City or keep slaves, and I don't think anyone will tell Redcloak "you were absolutely justified in everything you did"
I don't think the narrative is even "goblins are poor innocent victims" when, as has been rightly pointed out, they kill and invade the same way humans and elves do.
Originally Posted by Telenil
Regarding Thor, I think the point was that he wanted to say that even if the goblins got shafted by their god, they could have still "made it", and Durkon rebutted that the way the system is set is why goblins have ended up as "XP fodder" even if they weren't meant to.
And, yes, a goblin army conquered Azure City. On average the goblins are still at a disadvantage, but through overwhelming numbers and a good strategy (and some luck in the form of Miko) they won over an human city. I don't think that's a common occurrence in OotS-world, we don't see goblins routinely toppling other humanoid nations and cities in a day. I'm pretty sure the hobgoblin city is the only time we saw a large goblinoid settlement, too.
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2021-05-02, 07:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-05-02, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
Aren't overwhelming numbers canonically part of their intrinsic advantages though? Which one of things that bothered me about Durkon's 'dwarf vs goblin' fight argument, since given dwarves have fewer children and take longer to grow how often is the situation going to be a lone dwarf fighting a lone goblin and how often is it going to a lone dwarf fighting three or four goblins? And those thousands upon thousands of hobgoblins had to come from somewhere so clearly there must be big (hob)goblin settles somewhere.
In fact looking at the D&D rules (and yes I know the story isn't exactly bound by those but they are still a guide) goblins are arguably physically superior to humans. They take a hit to Strength but get a bonus to Dexterity (the king of stats), darkvision and racial bonuses to riding and moving silently. They are equally resilient and intelligent. Working from those basics goblins do hit a little less hard than humans but they are harder to hit, superior archers, superior horsemen and have a serious advantage in fighting (or hunting) after dark. Those are not negligible advantages.
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2021-05-02, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
Keep in mind, the overwhelming numbers in the battle of Azure City were also part of Xykon and Redcloak's strategy: they sabogated the Azurite warning system, so that they wouldn't have time to rally their full army and had to rely on the forces within the city proper.
But, yes, we did see a large hobgoblin settlement in-story, but it seems to have been either the only one, or an incredibly rare occurrence. The conquest of Azure City is an oddity, something that doesn't happen on the regular.
I would also argue that, clearly, if within the narrative goblins have been stuck in bad territories with few resources for so long, it's obvious that their faster breeding doesn't actually work as an equaliser.
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2021-05-02, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
End it all
Last edited by SN137; 2021-06-17 at 07:18 PM.
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2021-05-02, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
The problem for me is that it seems like the narrative is trying to have its cake and eat it; goblins must simultaneously be incredibly common (from their 'fast breeding' and apparently being around as XP-fodder if we are to believe the goblins) yet also can't actually succeed at anything despite this and despite being at least physically and mentally equal to humans (to maintain sympathy) and having little obvious technology gap.
It seems to me that in order for the conceit to fully work - that the goblin position is so weak they can't achieve anything - we have to retcon their success at Azure City and the enormous, well disciplined, well equipped army that conquered the humans. Because as is the conquest of Azure City is an argument that backs up Thor, not Durkon.
I think it would be reasonable to accept a position in between Thor and Durkon's views - that the goblins had a poor hand but still could and can do a lot better with what they do have - but the last few strips definitely suggest to me that we are meant to see Durkon as entirely in the right and Thor entirely in the wrong.
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2021-05-02, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
Again, we can take the hobgoblin army as a notable exception in the course of goblinoid history. It's not impossible for goblins to succeed, but the system is stacked against them.
I think it would be reasonable to accept a position in between Thor and Durkon's views - that the goblins had a poor hand but still could and can do a lot better with what they do have - but the last few strips definitely suggest to me that we are meant to see Durkon as entirely in the right and Thor entirely in the wrong.
But I also want to insist that we're lacking context. Next strip is most likely going to be Roy's (relatively fresh) PoV on the situation. Again, I don't think the conclusion of this conversation is going to be that Roy is an horrible person who doesn't want to change the world for the better.
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2021-05-02, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2021
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
I can see the bard maybe getting on board with this stupid narrative, but the rest of the party hasn't dump-stated INT or in the cleric's case, has had friends and family murdered, enslaved and eaten by goblinoids.
The party is 4 races who have had to unite and form a civilization as the only way to protect themselves from goblinoids who were given all the advantages of strength and population who would have conquered and literally eaten them otherwise.
Even united, even having worked together to form a civilization and advancements such as mage schools, metal working, industry, economy etc. they're still weaker than the cave man goblinoids population advantage with cities being conquered, slaves taken, people used as food etc.
It's only because the goblinoids have never built a civilization and have fought each other as much as anyone else that the other races even exist still. Now they're being portrayed as the victim? Ugh, like most of the party, I haven't dump-stated INT either.
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2021-05-02, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
Well that’s one wrong way to interpret it....
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"
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2021-05-02, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2018
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
I kinda feel like complaining to an author about where you think the story might go, when the odds of the author actually reading is fairly slim and the odds of the author changing anything are nil, is kinda pointless?
You're not obligated to like it, but the story has been flirting with these ideas for years. I generally trust Rich to handle it with nuance. But you have to give him time to get there. The main characters are only just beginning to contemplate the bigger picture. We probably have irl years to go before the story is over.Last edited by Yirggzmb; 2021-05-02 at 10:18 AM. Reason: typo
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2021-05-02, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
Absolutely nearly pointless. The chances of success are basically zero. But I don't like the term 'complaining' since it implies it is purely personal.
Much of the stuff I pointed out and others have as well are technical writing issues that have existed for awhile. If they aren't addressed, it doesn't matter whether or not we love it or hate it.
The Hobgoblin armies despite being supposedly disadvantaged is a gap in the plot. Virtually never showing good or even neutral goblins, having loads of pure evil ones, and then trying to be like 'no see they're just like anyone else' at the end is muddling the themes and trying to have your cake and eat it too. Treating the Goblins like have it the worst without substantiating while we know for a fact there are other peoples in comparable if not worse scenarios is a contraction and once again muddles the theme.
All of these issues are possible to fix and explain but we've officially reached the territory where we have to start initiating repairs and planning scenes to patch these holes or else they will forever be damaging to the narrative. Will I still read the story? Absolutely. Will I still like it? Most likely. But as a writer I want to minimize the number of issues in my own work as much as possible, and I assume Rich feels the same way. Regardless of if we feel these are huge issues or little issues, regardless of whether they impact literally anybody's enjoyment or literally everybody's, they're issues.
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2021-05-02, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
Really, if you're going to discuss Redcloak and his motives, you must read Start of Darkness. Trying to discuss his character without doing that is like trying to discuss the character of Hamlet without having actually read the play. You could theoretically do it, but the results are not likely to be useful.
Spoiler: Start of DarknessWhen Redcloak and his brother recruit the still-living Xykon to their cause Redcloak gives a long expositional speech about the history of the Dark One and the Snarl. The art style shifts to crayons, like Shinjo's long exposition to the Order about the Snarl. It is also the only part of the book that is in color.
It is very clear that the story being told is Redcloak telling the story to Xykon, meaning it is all from Redcloak's point of view. The events depicted are not necessarily how they really happened. This is true of Shinjo's long crayon exposition as well, which we later discovered was not entirely accurate (primarily on the subject of how many worlds the gods have created).
Redcloak's story there is the source of the idea that the goblins were not treated fairly by the gods. Thor has contradicted the idea that the other gods deliberately kept the goblins down, saying basically that if they were treated badly it wasn't on purpose. It seems likely that other parts of it are also not entirely accurate. Particularly suspect is the claim that the Dark One was a wise and merciful ruler of goblinkind and only wanted justice for his people. Of course that's what the Dark One's high priest would believe.
I wonder, what if in the comic somehow things were arranged for all the races to have equal proportions of good land...and then the goblins outbred everyone, conquered and enslaved them all, and eventually exterminated all the other races before devolving into endless goblin vs. goblin wars, because it turns out the "usually neutral evil" entry in the monster manual meant that goblins really do have a racial predisposition towards being neutral evil (probably put their by their creator), and giving what really was an evil race an even footing with all the other less-evil races ultimately proved to be a terrible idea for everyone, the goblins included.
It's not going to happen, because Rich has made it clear he doesn't like the idea that sentient races might really have a disposition towards a particular part of the alignment spectrum, but it might have been interesting.
I think it's a pretty silly idea that the goblins were dealt bad land to begin with and then they haven't been able to overcome that disadvantage for the thousands of years of world history that have followed. It's made particularly ridiculous when you realize we have at least two known instances where gigantic goblin hordes rose up and wrecked havoc on global scales (the crusade of the Dark One's followers and the conquest of Azure City). If their land disadvantage was really too much for them to overcome, how did they form big enough goblin hordes to threaten the world? Twice?
The Giant has surprised me before with how things have unfolded, and hasn't been afraid to show that much of what we thought we knew was wrong. I'll wait until the end credits are running before deciding if this goblin rights subplot (and despite what some readers seem to think it is a sub-plot, not the focus of the whole comic) was handled well or not.Last edited by Jason; 2021-05-02 at 11:02 AM.
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2021-05-02, 11:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
There are plenty of explicitly non-evil goblins in the books, including two whole storylines centered around "Neutral" goblin societies. However, the main comic almost exclusively focusing on overtly evil or ambiguously ethical goblins in the earlier strips does feel like a flaw to me, especially bc the Giant wants the story to be fully comprehensible to people who don't buy the books, and recent threads have shown that there's a lot of people who didn't read the side stories before now who aren't satisfied bc of the ideas they've built about OotS goblins.
But I'm not really sure what could have been done in the strips from the past few years to remediate that without grinding the plot to a halt. The addition of Oona and the bugbears feels like setup to lead to it in the final book in a way that works organically, and especially after HtPGHS I do trust the Giant to make it land.
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2021-05-02, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
I presume you mean Righteye's village in Start of Darkness and the Hobgoblin settlement in How the Paladin Got His Scar? I agree that Righteye's village seems to have been at least neutral, but I'm not so sure about the hobgoblin settlement.
Spoiler: How The Paladin Got His ScarGranted, there are hobgoblins who wish to have peace with other races in the story, but their society as a whole seems to be evil-aligned to me. Everyone is essentially bullied into doing whatever the supreme leader wants. The first one is obviously evil. The new supreme leader at the end poisons the entire court (including the poor hobgoblin serving the food) in order to become supreme leader, and then scapegoats the humans. He's probably not neutral-aligned, he's just less interested in open conflict with the Azurites.
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2021-05-02, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
One of the things about goblins that is touched on briefly here but more in other books is that they are very prone to following their leaders. Hobgoblins that had no desire to fight were drafted by their stronger leaders.
This means, effectively, most goblins we meet in the comic are simply extensions of redcloak and his master.
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2021-05-02, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
So, things we know:
1) Thor admitted in comic that RedCloak is right
2) The gods are shown in comic to give a *lot* more aid than just “good land at the start”
3) The author clearly believes murdering prisoners in cold blood is wrong, and has created a fictional world where it’s wrong
Why are we focusing on the questions that have already been addressed successfully in the comic?Last edited by Dion; 2021-05-02 at 11:52 AM.
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2021-05-02, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
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2021-05-02, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
I just reread the actual comic very carefully to see if your assertion is true.
It is not.
Thor never says that redcloak is wrong.
In fact, the whole point of the last two comics is Durkon’s growing horror at discovering that Thor doesn’t deny anything Redcloak said.
It’s awful to say, but I don’t think you’re arguing about things that happen in the comic.Last edited by Dion; 2021-05-02 at 12:48 PM.
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2021-05-02, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
But his account took us from "The gods deliberately made goblins to fail and die horribly" to "A god made goblins to win, but he unfortunately had no functional conception of what it takes for a race to succeed." If you believe those are functionally identical accounts, that's your prerogative. But for me, well, to return to my original point, if The Dark One's account of his own death is remotely as distorted as that, then that injects a lot of doubt into exactly how perfidious his demise really was.
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2021-05-02, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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2021-05-02, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
Roy even "protected" Tarquin's soldiers when they were trying to "execute" him "Durkon, have Spiky and the dominated soldiers cover us until we are clear, then release them" i mean, would he did the same if they were Goblins? and Roy is clearly a good person, and is not like he was doing it evil... but he was doing it "not good enough", at least for him, who is always trying to improve.
Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-05-02 at 01:23 PM.
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2021-05-02, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2020
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
Thor didn't say that. Instead, he said that the truth was complicated and that Redcloak's take was extremely biased.
Redcloak appears to argue that the gods, as the creators of the world, are responsible for everything that happens. And then Redcloak focuses on the goblins' grievances as the main thing that the gods caused.
The first problem with Redcloak's perspective is that it's absurd to claim that the gods actually had power to control everything. That's like faulting someone driving a car for not dodging a microscopic bacteria on the road when they could've turned the wheel.. while dodging may've seemed possible in principle, merely controlling the steering-wheel isn't actually sufficient to have had the power to choose otherwise.
The second problem with Redcloak's perspective is that, if Redcloak does take the absurd position that the gods are at-fault for everything by virtue of being creators, then Redcloak also has to fault the gods for everything Redcloak likes. Including the fact that the goblins exist in the first place; that Redcloak himself has become a high-level Cleric; that the Dark One ascended; that the goblins got Azure City; etc.. So if the gods created the Dark One and gave the goblins Azure City, aren't they helping the goblins?
Thor pointed out that Redcloak's arguments were extremely biased -- not that they were correct.Last edited by Some; 2021-05-02 at 01:57 PM.
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2021-05-02, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
I agree. Recontextualizing things this late in the game with how cartoonishly evil the Goblins have been in the past is really challenging. The giant decided he wanted to do it though, and as much as I respect him as a writer (seriously dude is basically 10/10 for hundreds of strips at a time), it's a big ask. It would be hard to do it without grinding the story to a halt, but the 'hard' part is what he signed up for. It's up to him to have the skills to perform what he promised and if he makes a mistake it's fair to point out. He might be able to make it work and he's done better then I thought possible up to this point, we're just reaching risky territory.
This is why the recent strips are so damaging to Roy. People earlier have mocked me by saying that the comic isn't saying "ROY GREENHILT IS A RACIST", but here you are literally saying he would discriminate based on race in such a blatant way. That he literally values Goblin lives much less.
I believe he would do the same for Goblins if all the other factors were the same and if the Giant confirms the contrary then it's a pretty awful take on Roy's character that will contradict previous scenes where he's shown kindness, empathy, understanding and peaceful resolutions with 'monsters'.
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2021-05-02, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)
Given he objected to walking the dominated Linear Guild kobold up the steps to check for traps over in 840, probably. And that was a guy whose crowning achievement was trying to murder a cat because it was there.
I think the potential for discrepancies like that is what the post is concerned about, though.