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Thread: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
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2021-05-09, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
My understanding is that anyone targeting totaldile gets redirected to me.
BUT if someone was targeting me on purpose, they'd still target me.
So totaldile would have wound up targeting me if he originally targeted himself or originally targeted me.
Or was Diabound supposed to redirect me-to-him and him-to-me? I thought it was just one-way, so to speak. But I wouldn't be surprised if I misunderstood his power, given that I usually find vortexers confusing and I've shown (this game at least) my understanding of the powers is lacking/incorrect.
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2021-05-09, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2019
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
Call of the Earthbound: On your Main Phase 2: Target two Players. Any card effect, other than your own, that targets either Player until the next Endphase instead targets the other.
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2021-05-09, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
All fair and plausible points, but I find it really convenient and improbable that the Fool and Seer got in touch via QT during D1.
But it could happen. And, if it did, I see y'all doing what you did instead of (purposefully) targeting me.
And, yeah, Diabound coulda redirected those targeting you to spread confusion. And maybe he thought it'd screw up my plan (and it did screw up the part about getting your feedback and confirming your Role).
Just it seems just as likely that you're Bakura. And that doesn't require the unlikely event that the two Tombkeepers got in communication D1.
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2021-05-09, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2019
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2021-05-09, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
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2021-05-09, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
Diabound - Vortexer: You are the collection of the rage of the slaughtered village of Kul Elna. Your blood is on the Pharoah’s hands.
Call of the Earthbound: On your Main Phase 2: Target two Players. Any card effect, other than your own, that targets either Player until the next Endphase instead targets the other.
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2021-05-09, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
If gac3 and totaldileplayz are being honest, then, between totaldile and me, we can ID the wolves.
Unfortunately or fortunately, we seem to distrust each other.
Living players are
AvatarVecna - ???
BatCatHat - ???
Apogee1 - ???
Cao - DEAD SOON, Diabound
totaldileplayz -- seer or fool
JeenLeen - Mai
gac3 - Dark Magician
BookWombat - ???
Valmark - ???
I basically know one of ??? is Solomon Moto.
totaldile has the name of two other townies (the other Tombkeeper and whoever Ishtar scried).
So 2 unknowns left, and those are the two wolves.
I'm going to bed before I say something stupid, but wanted to throw that possible "we can plan and win this" out there. Folk can discuss and we decide what to do later.
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2021-05-09, 11:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
Perhaps I can rephrase it
SpoilerDiabound - Vortexer: You are the collection of the rage of the slaughtered village of Kul Elna. Your blood is on the Pharoah’s hands.
Call of the Earthbound: On your Main Phase 2: Target two Players. Any card effect, other than your own, that targets either Player until the next Endphase instead targets the other.Spoiler: Check Out my Writing!
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2021-05-10, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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2021-05-10, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
My thoughts skimming through the thread.
Holy **** I latched onto the "3 or 4 wolves" thing and completely missed the other two weird things here. The first bit looks like the typical thing wolves do where they're like "oh no I was wrong to suspect this person and I know that now that they're dead". It's the apology reflex thing I've mentioned.
Then we have gac pushing for totadile to publicly share the scry result, instead of (presumably) privately coordinating with the now-trustworthy townie? I could see tot claiming if his scry caught a wolf, but until we knew the vortexer targeted JL and tot, it's bad to ask for a reveal like this. It honestly reads like a wolf who thinks tot was gonna scry JL, knows they got switched, and is trying to trick tot into publicly claiming fool so that nobody trusts tot's word anymore. Which hey maybe they shouldn't anyway but it's really weird to push for a claim right out the gate.
...and then the only post between this one and the previous one is JeenLeen's big post, which doesn't mention gac's post or even gac at all IIRC. And then gac claims? Why? I'll go into detail about this later.
This kinda reads like "I'm gonna vote my wolf buddy, but I'm gonna toss on a bit of skepticism just in case, who knows".
Let me rephrase that.
"Here was my plan:
1) Target the claimed seer.
2) Set up a QT with the seer and say "don't tell me who you targeted. Tell me the result".
3) Post in the main thread "XYZ scries as ABC", even though the seer didn't tell me XYZ because I specifically asked them not to tell me that."
This isn't the plan of somebody who's done a lot of thinking about their own power, this is a wolf taking a safe fake-claim and coming up with a story on-the-fly. He saw JeenLeen claim Mai, and claim JL/tot got vortexed, and popped in with "ah shucks I was gonna claim today to know who tot targeted but since it's been revealed now I may as well claim", which doesn't make a lick of sense if you're a townie. You don't claim just because your first plan for proving your claim is true failed. And it's convenient (as I noted at the time) that your "personal feedback" just so happened to be something that could be based entirely on what JeenLeen had already said about targeting stuff. And then, you claimed you didn't target JeenLeen and JL called you out on it and you had to backtrack cuz you realized you'd contradicted your own story and the existing narrative.
I think I was the only one who said "lets not d1 murska", and I was specifically saying it to try to get wolves and baner to N1 murska, wasting a wolf kill. It almost worked too.
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2021-05-10, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2019
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
No, just my somewhat childish antipathy towards picking the popular option. If it helps, I'm no longer skeptical regarding Cao.
I must say one amusing part about these games is how much people read into anything said (most certainly including myself. I was half-convinced Jeen was a wolf for being overly friendly).Last edited by Batcathat; 2021-05-10 at 01:21 AM.
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2021-05-10, 03:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2017
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
Solomon Moto can only boost someone again after two Standby phases so the latter would probably be better.
Solomon Moto - Experienced Player: You’ve collected all the best cards in the game, and know it better than anyone.
Spellbook of Knowledge: On your Main Phase 2: Choose one player. Their effect is boosted depending on their special ability. Once you choose a player, you cannot boost that same player until 2 Standby Phases have passed.Last edited by Book Wombat; 2021-05-10 at 03:13 AM.
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2021-05-10, 05:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
This could be true.
...that's it. All we can do is test it and everything makes sense, there's no real reason to believe you over Jeen- coming out like that with everything supported by the other players would be very risky with a fake claim.
In addition it would be very hard for the villains to have plotted all this- even if we consider totadile to be Bakura (so he'd work to support Jeen's version).
Alright, it all makes sense now. I was missing the logic behind targeting totadileplayz giving error.
I'm lost on the Bakura thing- I mean yes, totadile could be Bakura, but keep in mind that he was among the first to speak about why your plan was bad- thinking that he'd go along with it seems a bit of a stretch (and after many spoke about it it seems unlikely that the other Ishtar went along with it).
Also keep in mind that from the villains' pov it looked easy to uncover who the Fool and Seer are- targeting a known role or both targeting the same person should quickly lead to the discovery of who they are. Last night there was only two known roles, one of which an Ishtar and one dead- the best way to test the scry was self-targeting.
Although it's not totally safe- if the scriers don't target the same person one of them could easily lie to the other.
Is it unlikely? A Fool and a Seer working together can easily learn faster who they are while also searching others- especially since the Fool isn't totally useless in this game once known. One of the villains cannot be scried, right?
Of course after that specific villain is discovered it becomes weaker- still can work as a proxy (since a Fool acting as the 'voice' could work on behalf of the Seer. Or a Seer could pretend to be a Fool acting for a Seer).
Dunno if I already said it (I have been writing this post for hours because I had to stop, so I don't remember all I wrote) but there is also to note that while Bakura could fake Fool/Seer contacting them would still be relatively safe- without a way for the Fool/Seer to know who they are the villains shouldn't kill them or they risk giving the other Ishtar the information they need (for example let's say totadileplayz dies and the death PM says they are Marik- suddenly there is a fully functioning Ishizu around).
Mmm? I count five unknowns. Assuming we can remove the Ishtar that contacted totadile (and we can't actually remove them) from the wolf list and the unknown that should have boosted you we still have three unknowns. Given that the Lovers' protection should have worked last night Ishtar (not totadileplayz) could have been blocked, or they could have targeted you (going to totadile) or themselves.
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2021-05-10, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
Not quoting AV because I'm too lazy to trim down the quote. It's above this by only a few anyways.
1. Is it weird to push for a scry result? Normally I thought the concern was outing the seer? Maybe it's because I was vague? But I didn't really care about the role. As much as them saying (x scries as wolf) or (x scries as town). Which I didn't really see as having any downside?
2. My main plan happened a few minutes after I posted that and rushed to set up a QT with Totadileplays which came too late.
3. I have stated more reasons for claiming than just my plan fell through. It is just what I've done in the past as a watcher. Such as when I was Collin creevy and claimed to everyone unprompted as soon as possible.
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2021-05-10, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
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2021-05-10, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2017
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
OK, so. For JeenLeen lying.
First, let's take a look at the original post.
Mai should get the info back on the next day's standby phase, not immediately like Jeen did. In his first post, he gives the quote of his results as if he got the info back immediately. This is more than Mai should be able to on one phase and none of us noticed it. That right off the bat should be a red flag.
Jeen comes up with an explanation for this mistake in his reading of Mai's powers:
There's two pieces to this explanation that seem fishy.
- Mai's ability shouldn't resolve that quickly. So, to explain, he says he was boosted and knows who boosted him but we have no way to verify this person who let him get the info so quickly.
- He claims that he targeted me. But in an earlier post he says he uses it on Totadile:
Jeen's entire claim is that he was boosted - which meant that he was able to use the power immediately and use it on two people (Totadile and myself) in one phase.
So, Jeen's account of events:
1 - Booster tries to target totadile and gets switched to JeenLeen (Which is, well, what I did).
2 - In Standby phase, Jeen's "power" allows him to both see and target someone in the same phase, rather than just see who targeted him.
3 - He targets Totadile and when it doesn't work he targets Cao.
4 - Jeen has the time to get all this information either near the end of Main Phase 2 (when people could still be changing their powers/putting in a last minute ability) or he gets the info in the End Phase (when Villain actions resolve). He then has time to act on it and gets his results in the Standby Phase (only because he was boosted). Either way, the timing for when he got the list of players is not when those powers should be resolving at all.
My account of what happened:
1 - Start of the game, Jeen is a wolf whose team gets to see that Mai is not in play. Sets himself up for the fake claim/being trusted by the town.
2 - He starts directing where people should put their night actions. As a wolf, he knows that his team can vortex everyone away from him anyway. Bonus points for telling everyone what to do and then saying he won't claim D2 anyway (he wont need to, as everything will be vortexed away).
3 - People push back on the plan. Jeen admits it has faults but still tries to get it to happen. Also says he counted on Tea's bane to be redirected to a wolf. Which. Is weird? Why expect (and be ok with) what he thought was a heal going to a wolf?
4 - Asks about the Vortex power, making sure it will work as intended (that the Seers don't actually end up targeting him when they get redirected).
5 - Elenna (The Dark Magician Girl) is lynched and we go into Night. This in itself hurts Jeen's supposed plan where DMG would help to verify town. With so many people doubting the plan, Jeen wants to make sure that nothing intending to target him actually works. They vortex things away from Jeen. After Totadile's seer claim, he'll probably be protected/helped in some way and wanted whatever was targeting him to target Jeen.
6 - My power goes off. Totadile should have gotten the power boost but instead it goes to Jeen. Jeen (and by extension the wolves) learn what exactly that boost is for them.
7 - With the extra power, the wolf team is confident that if they can get through this day they are all set (or at least have an easy Day 3). They choose someone who was suspicious Day 1 (which had a lot to do with me repeating a phrase a couple times in one post?) and try to push through a lynch with little discussion. Jeen even lampshades that the town play would be to wait and try to catch other wolves.
tl;dr If we have 3 wolves, Day 2 wouldn't normally be lynch or lose. But now they have some extra power that I accidentally gave them and that could make them powerful enough to get through the rest of the game. As "Mai" he was able to target two people during a phase when he shouldn't normally have gotten results and is using that to push through a lynch which literally everyone got behind with very little discussion.
I know it comes down to my word vs his but we can't let (what I'm assuming is) 3 wolves with some sort of extra power get through to Day 3. Even if you guys lynch Jeen tomorrow the wolves will have had more than enough Night actions to mess with people/get through to the end of the game.
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2021-05-10, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
No. Jeen's account is that he was boosted and got to use Aroma Therapy immediately- the reason for the two targets was because targeting Totadileplayz was invalid because it would make an infinite loop.
The timing would make sense if he got boosted.
You haven't explained how Jeen got the list of players targeting Totadileplayz- it makes sense how he explained it, but yours? I doubt all of them told Jeen who were they targeting (or if they did I doubt they would be truthful).
I thought the reason you're suspicious is because Jeen's power showed that you're Diabound.
Eh, the last part applies to you too- if Jeen is truthful listening to you means sending three wolves into Day 3, albeit presumably without extra power.
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2021-05-10, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
I haven't fully read everything, but want to clarify my actual account of events.
During the Night, I said I was targeting totaldile. If totaldile did target me, it'd work. If he didn't, the power would fail due to invalid targeting. I can use Aroma, even if I don't know who targeted me; it just might fail. Similar to how, during Recruitment, Xi said Tea could use Aroma, if she felt lucky.
Due to the power boost, I had the extra ability to immediately use Aroma on a second target, after I learnt who targeted me last night.
I picked Cao since they were the most wolfy out of <redacted> and gac3, and I already had the feedback from totaldile.
I don't feel I really need to defend myself, but I wanted to clarify what happened.
<hr></hr>
I think, if anyone has lied so far, it's likely
1) gac3, for... unclear reasons, but AV is touching on possible reasons.
2) totaldile, as Bakura fakeclaiming a Role they know isn't there. And the 'other' Tombkeeper got in touch with them D1 to network, and he's playing them
3) the other Tombkeeper. totaldile is honest, but Bakura knows the other Role is absent, and reached out with a fakeclaim to fool totaldile
4) totaldile and the "other Tombkeeper" are the two wolves and both lying.
For 2 and 3, I think it's unlikely the Fool is in play but the Seer isn't... but that's not impossible.
#4 seems unlikely, as that requires both that Bakura knows Ishtar and Marik aren't there, and it's a real risky gambit since it might out both wolves if either are caught in a lie.
I know who Ishtar was claimed to have scried N1. They are Town, if totaldile and other Tombkeeper are Town.
Unrelated: we know gac3 and totaldile are not Zorc, since they targeted someone. Zorc doesn't target, so anyone who targeted is not Zorc. Also, rather likely, if anyone's targeting failed on someone, that person it failed to target is Zorc, as Zorc can't be targeted.
Totaldile seems offended by my paranoia and skepeticism, and is refusing to share information now. Which I kinda get. I'm refusing to share who <redacted> is with them.
I do plan to share everything I learned with <redacted>, so that, if I die, they can share and hopefully we can solve everything D3.
- - - Updated - - -
EDIT: ninja'd by Valmark, for explanation of N1
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2021-05-10, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
If you haven't checked QT in awhile, please check. Somebody might've started one with you.
(This is directed at a particular person who I'm not naming, but also if somebody else hasn't checked QT in awhile, it might be applicable to them too.)
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2021-05-10, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
Note: Keep in mind that the Lovers' power was still in play last Phase- so if someone failed to target somebody else it could have been... Yugi's power, I think.
No such thing next Phase unless the one who gets the power of the dead is in play and steals the bane and uses it (no good way to confirm that).
Also Zorc targets- they are the one carrying out the kill among the villains.
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2021-05-10, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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2021-05-10, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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- Montevarchi, Italy
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2021-05-10, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
Yeah. Nobody targeting me N1 could be Zorc, since otherwise I'd be dead. If gac3 or totaldileplayz are a wolf, they have to be Bakura.
True; a bad habit.
And I realize I've been overly sloppy this game. Probably came off as arrogant at times, but it was mostly meant as excitement about a 'cool idea' and catching Diabound. I am sorry. Real life excuses are part of it, but, well, still sloppy gameplay. My plot still worked, basically, even if the seer(s) didn't willingly cooperate. If totaldile is believed, Marik and Ishtar know who they are (though I think they would have even without me) and we caught Diabound -- basically the maximum outcome I was hoping for.
But, in this case...
If gac3 is honest, and if totaldile is honest, and if the other Tombkeeper he is in contact with is honest, then only two players are unknowns if totaldile and I fully shared our info.
My list has 5 ???: one is the other Tombkeeper, one is who Ishtar verified as Town N1, and one is Solomon Moto. 2 left.
If I'm alive D3, then I'll share who I trust as Solomon (unless they object) to totaldile.
If I'm dead D3, then Solomon Moto can claim. He knows everything I know, and can network with totaldile if he wishes.
I'm leaning towards believing totaldile. But I don't want to out Solomon.
I could see Solomon empowering totaldile or gac3, though. Even if one is Bakura... an empowered Bakura probably isn't too bad. I'd rather that an accidentally risk empowering Zorc by hitting one of the unknowns.
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2021-05-10, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
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2021-05-10, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
I see no point in stopping him.
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2021-05-10, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
Interesting mechanic... Xihirli has to make the QT's. So there is almost no way to fake them or anything like that. But on the other hand, they are free to be shared? Fascinating.
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2021-05-11, 02:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
Again, keep in mind that the verified-as-Town could have been baned, in which case there would be no assurance regarding wether they are a Hero or Zorc.
(Also quick clarification: Ishtar are both the Seer and Fool. Marik is the Fool and Ishizu is the Seer).
Every time I read Ishtar my dumb bird brain takes a few seconds to understand despite being obvious in the context xD
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2021-05-11, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
True, but doesn't Magical Hats not activate until after the N1 kill?
It activates in the Standby Phase, while Zorc's kill is End Phase, so Magical Hats wouldn't protect ANYONE N1. Also, for all we know, Mirror Force was used. I'm inclined to think the Lovers targeted themself N1.
I've been sloppy and misunderstood a lot, but that's one data point I think I understood. Was I wrong?
FROM RECRUITMENT:
Really? Wow. Another sloppy misread on my part.
To anyone I talked with: when I say 'Ishtar', I've meant the True Seer. I'll try to (and probably fail to) do better for the rest of the game.
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2021-05-11, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
From what I understood you were saying that the unknown Tombkeeper cleared a Town (one of your unknowns)- homewever if they targeted Zorc they'd get no result.
The same thing would happen if they targeted someome baned- the Lovers were still alive on Main Phase 2, so they could have baned someone, and their power triggers on the Standby Phase same as the scry.
From what I understand this would mean that the scry could've been blocked.
Or they could have tried to Scry one of the Lovers who are now dead- we still don't know who got scried so that's a possibility too.
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2021-05-11, 09:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!
FOLLOW-UP: I realized why Valmark's statement is correct. Even if the Zorc-kill goes through (as it obviously did), the bane could still stop a TOWN power, since those resolve in Standby when Magical Hats would also in effect. That Yugi/Yami died before Magical Hats resolves doesn't change that it was activated successfully.
- - - Updated - - -
edit: ninja'd
And, yeah, I guess that is possible. Come to think of it, I was only told who got scried by the True Seer, not the result. I just assumed it was Town.