What Bargain Would Redcloak Accept?

[brian 333]

Given our present situation and the knowledge made available to us, is there any offer anyone could make that Redcloak would accept?

Even if OotS had the power to grant Redcloak's wildest demands, would that satisfy him? Or would he simply increase his demands?

The only thing I could envision would be complete role reversal, with the current PC races becoming XP for the goblins. This is obviously not where this comic is going.

So, to what deal would Redcloak agree?

[SavageWombat]

I don't think there is one he'd accept. I think that, when it came down to it, he decided that the fact that Durkon was willing to bargain meant that Redcloak was too close to winning to stop now.

I also wonder how much of that is the cloak itself.

[Christopher K.]

Considering how much Redcloak has given up to get this far, I don't think there's any offer that he'd really be able to make peace with. He's made so many sacrifices and tied his brain in knots to justify them for The Plan that his sunk cost fallacy is gonna bite him hard.

[Wizard_Lizard]

"You guys let me do what I'm doing and leave me alone to enact my plan and I kindly will not kill you maybe"
"sure!"
"Deal accepted!"
though I can't seem to see it playing out like that

[Riftwolf]

For him to accept any deal, first the plan must be stamped into the ground and the earth salted. He might not even stop of Xykon is destroyed. I'm guessing he'd have doubts if the Arcane half of the ritual got destroyed, depending on where that came from.

To clarify; at the moment he's under the impression the Plan will definitely work, and he's close enough to winning that the Gods are afraid. He needs to be bought to a point where he thinks his triumph isn't immediate, then he needs convincing the Plan won't get him any further than it has, before even listening to a deal.
What kind of deal would he accept? His initial request for a divine mandate doesn't seem feasible; if it was, that'd be between the Gods to negotiate. Right now the Dark One's still melting the calls from his former allies, so he can't be counted on to take a seat at any table. A truce between dwarven and bugbear factions would be the most logical start point, as we've been shown they still fight each other. Hinjo would news roping in to any negotiation over Gobbotopias sovereignty.

[Ganbatte]

Given our present situation and the knowledge made available to us, is there any offer anyone could make that Redcloak would accept?

Even if OotS had the power to grant Redcloak's wildest demands, would that satisfy him? Or would he simply increase his demands?

The only thing I could envision would be complete role reversal, with the current PC races becoming XP for the goblins. This is obviously not where this comic is going.

So, to what deal would Redcloak agree?

Probably none. He's mostly moved by resentment and sunk cost fallacies, and that stuff doesn't align well with deals and middle grounds.

[Vikenlugaid]

It's not about accepting, it is more about trusting. If he would trusted Durkon, he probably would accepted his offer.

[Blue Dragon]

Probably none. He's mostly moved by resentment and sunk cost fallacies, and that stuff doesn't align well with deals and middle grounds.

I second this.

[hroþila]

It's not about accepting, it is more about trusting. If he would trusted Durkon, he probably would accepted his offer.

I disagree. The impression I got is that Redcloak fundamentally trusts Durkon, as in he doesn't really think Durkon's trying to mislead him. But he doesn't trust Thor, and he thinks Durkon lacks the power to enforce the terms, which are way too uncertain and have way too many moving parts (which is definitely true).

No matter how much or how little Redcloak trusts Durkon, he can't accept these terms for several reasons:
1) The Dark One explicitly told Redcloak not to prioritize Gobbotopia over the Plan.
2) Redcloak thinks he's winning. The only terms he would accept are terms that would give him everything the Plan is supposed to accomplish. Durkon's terms don't do that, and given that the gods can't really intervene, there are no terms that Redcloak (with his current attitude) could ever accept.
3) Related to #2 above, Redcloak can't ditch the Plan unless the outcome is both exactly the same that the completion of the Plan would have achieved and also a direct consequence of the Plan as pursued by Redcloak. He needs to be able to rationalize and justify everything he's done. Terms that Thor may have suggested to the Dark One anyway due to his quiddity won't do. You could say that Gobbotopia wouldn't exist if not for the horrible things Redcloak has done, and you'd have a point, but the scale of Gobbotopia is too small compared to what the Plan is trying to achieve. Gobbotopia alone won't help Redcloak sleep at night.

To get him off the Plan, you need to do it in a way that leaves him thinking it wasn't his fault. Xykon walking out for three years to decipher Serini's diary gave Redcloak an out he could take without feeling guilty, at least until Xykon returned. After the events at the end of SoD, even destroying Xykon might not make Redcloak think that he has no choice but to abandon the Plan for Thor's plan, and thus avoid the guilt and the sunk cost fallacy. It's probably more likely that he'll just go completely cuckoo and get himself killed in the most destructive way possible. But again, that's with Redcloak's current attitude - maybe the Order will manage to change that somehow.

[brian 333]

Well, we do have on record that blunt force trauma to the skull changes minds...

The part about Durkon being unable to enforce any agreement is a good point that I hadn't considered. I was thinking about it from the perspective of what would Redcloak want rather than what could Durkon deliver.

That makes a bargain even less likely. Heck, even with an agreement to every demand it makes it unlikely that Redcloak would accept. Even a broken Redcloak with Xykon destroyed would likely opt for world destruction over the promises that the Good guys have really changed.

[RMS Oceanic]

At present, Redcloak is in way too deep to accept anything but 100% of everything he wants, which as we know is impossible without a planetary reboot. There's gonna have to be some fundamental shift, either in power or perspective, to get him to come to the table in good faith.

[understatement]

Here before the thread devolves.

There is all but a guarantee that there will be a second time in diplomacy, based on Durkon's words to Roy. It won't be in logical reasons, however, because Durkon already tried that once and with the new knowledge Thor gave him there is simply no way to meet the demands for the Plan.

It would be more of an emotion-related tangent. The root of the Plan stems from Redcloak's sunk-cost fallacy (this phrase is used so many times, I swear) which has always tied back to one person: Xykon. Only if something drastically changes between Redcloak and Xykon will there be any window of opportunity for a negotiation that won't end terribly.

[Robots]

Well, we do have on record that blunt force trauma to the skull changes minds...

Obviously they just have to bonk RC over the head until the brain damage makes him accept their help.

[Metastachydium]

"You guys let me do what I'm doing and leave me alone to enact my plan and I kindly will not kill you maybe"
"sure!"
"Deal accepted!"

The Plan must continue!

Here before the thread devolves.

There is all but a guarantee that there will be a second time in diplomacy, based on Durkon's words to Roy. It won't be in logical reasons, however, because Durkon already tried that once and with the new knowledge Thor gave him there is simply no way to meet the demands for the Plan.

It would be more of an emotion-related tangent. The root of the Plan stems from Redcloak's sunk-cost fallacy (this phrase is used so many times, I swear) which has always tied back to one person: Xykon. Only if something drastically changes between Redcloak and Xykon will there be any window of opportunity for a negotiation that won't end terribly.

Back when I was an unreasonably and unnecessarily active participant of the Redcloak discussions, I suggested that the Order saving Redcloak's life from Xykon would probably help with that. It could feasibly leave Redcloak pleasantly confused (PC raced adventurers saving a goblin?) and it would lend credence to the notion that 1. the world actually needs Redcloak to stay in one piece and 2. the main objective of the Order is not stopping the Plan through tricks, since, to put it mildly, Redcloak's death would negatively impact the chances of the Plan succeeding, especially once the cold conflict between the core members of Team Evil gets hot, so letting him die would achieve what Redcloak believes is the Order's goal without the Order having to put themselves to risk.

[Jason]

Redcloak has to understand that the gods will never give him what he wants, and possibly have the Snarl directly threatening Gobbotopia, before he will accept something other than total success of the Plan. I suspect he may have to gain more insight into the Dark One's true character as well.

[Metastachydium]

I suspect he may have to gain more insight into the Dark One's true character as well.

If Big Purple is the real problem, giving a permanent solution to the ongoing Snarl crisis is next to impossible. Subsequently, I don't expect that Big Purple is the real problem.

[Jason]

If Big Purple is the real problem, giving a permanent solution to the ongoing Snarl crisis is next to impossible. Subsequently, I don't expect that Big Purple is the real problem.

Thor has already said that all they need from him is one 9th level spell. The Dark One can refuse to play along as long as Redcloak decides to provide the spell.

[Metastachydium]

Thor has already said that all they need from him is one 9th level spell. The Dark One can refuse to play along as long as Redcloak decides to provide the spell.

We don't know that this would allow the other pantheons to seal every Rift forever, though. (And if it worked like that (as some believe), Thor is a supreme jerk.)

[Mike Havran]

I am pretty much convinced that most of Redcloak's radical position is tied to his relationship with Xykon and his submissive role therein. Therefore, any reasonable bargain can be attempted only after Xykon has been destroyed (once and for all. Redcloak switched the phylactery and once Xykon is destroyed, the betrayal will be immediately exposed so Redcloak might as well finish the weakened lich off).

Now, with Xykon gone and a Gate still standing, there will be plenty of space for reasonable response (such as: OK, why not, let's try to seal a Redmountain Hill gate first to see what happens. After it goes well, let's go to Gobbotopia and seal the rift that endangers my nation ...)

And once in Gobbotobia, he might plan to do some betrayal stuff ...

[Snails]

It's not about accepting, it is more about trusting. If he would trusted Durkon, he probably would accepted his offer.

To be precise, it is not necessarily that Redcloak's does not believe Durkon is sincere, but whether Durkon can deliver. While Hinjo, nominal ruler of the greatest apparent threat to Gobotopia, might be persuaded to make promises, too, I doubt Redcloak would be satisfied that he could deliver.

Ultimately, Redcloak perceives his beef is with the gods and not specific individual humanoids. While he believes he has a chance to help TDO beat the gods, he will be impossible to persuade.

And we can presume that Redcloak has been telling himself that his fallback plan is to face personal annihilation so that TDO can build a better new world for goblinkind, for a very long time. Redlcoak is not going to let go of the narrative that he himself is brave and selfless beyond the measure of any normal hero, as balm for all the sacrifices and evil done along the way.

[tomandtish]

Honestly, trying to convince Redcloak to abandon the plan is useless at this point..

1) He's convinced it will work.

2) He has too much invested in it to turn away.

3) The last thing he heard from his god was in support of the plan.

And that's actually where the focus should be. Don't convince Redcloak the plan is bad, convince The Dark One. If you can convince him, then he can tell Redcloak to stop. And he's honestly the only one who can.

[Worldsong]

To be precise, it is not necessarily that Redcloak's does not believe Durkon is sincere, but whether Durkon can deliver. While Hinjo, nominal ruler of the greatest apparent threat to Gobotopia, might be persuaded to make promises, too, I doubt Redcloak would be satisfied that he could deliver.

Ultimately, Redcloak perceives his beef is with the gods and not specific individual humanoids. While he believes he has a chance to help TDO beat the gods, he will be impossible to persuade.

And we can presume that Redcloak has been telling himself that his fallback plan is to face personal annihilation so that TDO can build a better new world for goblinkind, for a very long time. Redlcoak is not going to let go of the narrative that he himself is brave and selfless beyond the measure of any normal hero, as balm for all the sacrifices and evil done along the way.

Agreed. As a reminder, Redcloak is a Cleric who has dedicated almost his entire life to a task given to him by his deity. And on top of that, he's been told that the issue he's trying to solve has divine origins. It's not very surprising that he'd have a hard time accepting that the solution is not divine in nature as well.

[RochtheCrusher]

If Xykon knew that Redcloak's ritual wouldn't help Xykon take over the world (or even survive), then Xykon would attack Redcloak.

If Xykon attacked Redcloak, Redcloak may not be equipped to end the lich by his lonesome right now. Might be looking for allies, willing to make some deals.

[skim172]

I don't think Redcloak will accept any bargain. Nothing short of complete fulfillment of his plan will suffice. And the reason is personal rather than strategic. Redcloak has done too much and given up too much to be personally satisfied with anything else.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness spoilers

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That was the meaning behind the act of killing his brother. As Xykon stated, Redcloak is now bound to this plan by his guilt - because he gives up on "The Plan", then killing his brother would've been pointless act of betrayal that he did for nothing. (It was a pointless betrayal - but he doesn't want to admit that to himself)

It's a sunk cost fallacy. In his mind, anything less than full completion of the plan would render everything that Redcloak has done - all the sacrifices, all the killings, all the death, and all the moral compromises and bargains he's made - to be pointless. And Redcloak can't accept that. It would break him irreversibly if he had to truly face what he's done and what he's responsible for.

I see Redcloak's character arc as one of a fall from grace. A person with good intentions and righteous motives is corrupted via a downward spiral of of ever-greater compromises and irrational decisions which feeds its own vicious cycle.

[Mariele]

Obviously they just have to bonk RC over the head until the brain damage makes him accept their help.

But don't use a coconut, we're not trying to cure amnesia.

I know everyone hangs on the sunk cost fallacy (and if I had a nickel for every time I read that term on this forum, my student loans would be paid off in triplicate), but I do feel like RC's rejection of Durkon's terms goes way beyond that. As mentioned upthread, Durkon was being very sympathetic and pleasant, but he wasn't actually promising much. He could maybe get the leader of Azure City on board with not reclaiming it and maybe eventually people would be ok with gobbos. In return, RC would have to abandon a plan he has been working on for decades under orders from his own god and give up any leverage he had over the other gods. Like... even I'm going "hold on a minute pal, this sounds like a bit of a bum deal". RC doesn't trust Thor because of what his own god has told him. His own god has never mentioned the other gods pulling the plug on the world, or not being able to make it to the next world. He has to rely on the word of this emissary of a god he doesn't even trust, and it just so happens that the emissary is describing terms that put RC and TDO at a severe disadvantage, and it's the first time he's ever heard of them.

Durkon was very nice, but he wasn't bringing a lot to the table. I wouldn't have taken the deal, either. I mean, I probably wouldn't have imploded Durkon, I would have left to fact-check with TDO and left it on the table for now, but I can't say I really found his reaction all that surprising.

ETA: I think that if Durkon had genuine, solid proof of everything he was saying, and was able to guarantee peace for Gobbotopia, and could have the news delivered to TDO to save RC the burden of feeling like he's betraying his god by dropping the plan, I think RC might have agreed. I'm not sure, since he's a tricky character, but it seems like he did consider Durkon fairly seriously, and maybe the actual heft of proof and guarantees would have been enough.

[semi]

What if the goblins get the world within the rift and bunny rabbits or something to kill for XP?

[Vikenlugaid]

I disagree. The impression I got is that Redcloak fundamentally trusts Durkon, as in he doesn't really think Durkon's trying to mislead him. But he doesn't trust Thor, and he thinks Durkon lacks the power to enforce the terms, which are way too uncertain and have way too many moving parts (which is definitely true).

Yeah, i did mean mostly that, i didn't express it too well.

No matter how much or how little Redcloak trusts Durkon, he can't accept these terms for several reasons:
1) The Dark One explicitly told Redcloak not to prioritize Gobbotopia over the Plan.
2) Redcloak thinks he's winning. The only terms he would accept are terms that would give him everything the Plan is supposed to accomplish. Durkon's terms don't do that, and given that the gods can't really intervene, there are no terms that Redcloak (with his current attitude) could ever accept.
3) Related to #2 above, Redcloak can't ditch the Plan unless the outcome is both exactly the same that the completion of the Plan would have achieved and also a direct consequence of the Plan as pursued by Redcloak. He needs to be able to rationalize and justify everything he's done. Terms that Thor may have suggested to the Dark One anyway due to his quiddity won't do. You could say that Gobbotopia wouldn't exist if not for the horrible things Redcloak has done, and you'd have a point, but the scale of Gobbotopia is too small compared to what the Plan is trying to achieve. Gobbotopia alone won't help Redcloak sleep at night.

1) I don't remember TDO saying that.
2) Yeah, he thinks he is winning, but Durkon told them that he is not, that he will lose all of this because the Gods will destroy the world, and Redcloak doesn't trust him on that, that's the problem.
3) Yeah well... i think Redcloak is actually very pragmatic, he obviously have issues "deep inside", but i don't think he can't fight them... if not, he wouldn't listened Durkon at all.

To get him off the Plan, you need to do it in a way that leaves him thinking it wasn't his fault. Xykon walking out for three years to decipher Serini's diary gave Redcloak an out he could take without feeling guilty, at least until Xykon returned. After the events at the end of SoD, even destroying Xykon might not make Redcloak think that he has no choice but to abandon the Plan for Thor's plan, and thus avoid the guilt and the sunk cost fallacy. It's probably more likely that he'll just go completely cuckoo and get himself killed in the most destructive way possible. But again, that's with Redcloak's current attitude - maybe the Order will manage to change that somehow.

Well, none says that's easy, but Redcloak is pragmatic and one of the smartest characters in the comic, i don't think he will just go kamikaze.

[Vahnavoi]

I don't know what kind of bargain Redcloak would accept, but the way his character arc has been built up, I'd expect him to reverse his final decision from Start of Darkness and try to get one over Xykon.

Spoiler

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Basically, "my brother was right, I should've helped him kill you instead of killing him, and I will kill you like he meant to."

I expect the trigger for this to be related to the Monster in the Dark and Xykon attempting to kill Redcloak when Xykon realizes Redcloak has been playing him.

The other alternative is a final boss switcheroo where Redcloak destroys Xykon and takes over as the main antagonist.

[Dr.Zero]

2) Yeah, he thinks he is winning, but Durkon told them that he is not, that he will lose all of this because the Gods will destroy the world, and Redcloak doesn't trust him on that, that's the problem.

I'd say that is natural: after tens of years you (think you) are eventually winning, your enemies come and say that if you win, you actually lose, but fear not, we can find an agreement so that you can stop your war, now that you're winning.

Yeah, sure, do you want to sell to me the Colosseum, too?

[rbetieh]

You know whats funny, Redcloak had basically accepted Durkons proposal (you get to keep Azure City and its lands) up to the point that the IFCC tricked V into proving that his new land would never be safe...

Thos IFCC are really good at what they do...