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Thread: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
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2021-06-01, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
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2021-06-01, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Thanks for the confirmation.
Now I have to wonder if this was an honest mistake or some weird kind of conspiracy.
Unless there are other, more significant votes are off as well, I tend to think it's an honest mistake. Anybody thinking otherwise?
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2021-06-01, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Okay guys. Some of you have been leaving mental notes and thoughts in your role QTs and someone just asked me if this is allowed. I want to confirm that it is allowed. I encourage it. It helps keep me entertained so I say go for it. Though I promise to try to remember how you think and use it when I play against you in future games. So that might be the only downside if you worry about that.
Edit: also I have mentioned that I might be out of commission today because the doctors warned I might be but except for needing a nap, I'm already back to being present if anyone needs anything.Last edited by gac3; 2021-06-01 at 04:26 PM.
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2021-06-01, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
After thinking through options, I'm inclined to trust Apogee's Demeter claim. Although I'd advise those with info-gathering roles to trust but verify - the fact that it'd largely be a stupid play for wolves because of how easy it is to check could explain why Apogee is working hard to be transparent, so as to convince people to not double-check without just saying that they shouldn't. Now, for game numbers!
21 players. Probably 1 neutral? That leaves 20 for town/scum, so probably a 15/5 split? 16/4 feels too little, and while I could maybe see 14/6 if their powers are generally weak, I wouldn't bet on wolves having strong numbers and weak powers - that seems like setting up for disappointment. With 11 cabins with 2 powers each, we've probably got two representatives from most cabins. Some of those are gonna be wolves, but probably not two wolves from the same cabin for the most part. Let's see...
Spoiler: RolesFirst power makes sense for scum, second power doesn't.
Poseidon: You are the child of the god of the sea and King of Atlantis.
- Healing Waters: You have learned that you can use water to heal yourself and others. Each night you may choose one person and they are immune to dying that night.
- Big Reveal: Your dad both has your back and a dramatic streak. At any point during the game, you can ask the DM to reveal your role and faction to others. At the time of use, you may choose to have me announce it openly in the main thread or privately to up to two individuals in their role QT. (I will do this as soon as I see the request and am able. I cannot promise that if you make the request while I am asleep or at work that it will happen until after I complete said activity though I will try if possible.)
Second power is not a wolf power in any universe.
Demeter: Your mother is the queen of plants and grain.
- Sibling: You begin the game with knowledge of another child of Demeter.
- Sibling: You begin the game with knowledge of another child of Demeter.
Ares: As a child of Ares, you are exceptionally skilled in battle.
- Hard to Kill: You are exceptionally tough. The first time you would die, you don't.
- Vicious Warrior: It is near impossible to escape battle with you unscathed. If you die, one person responsible is randomly killed in the process.
Athena: While skilled in combat, the children of Athena's most dangerous weapon is their agile mind.
- Divine Deduction: Your mind is always moving as you keep an eye on those around you. Each night choose someone to watch and learn who their parent is.
- Lookout: You are confident that you can catch the guilty patty in the act. Each night choose one person to target. You see anyone who targets your choice during the night.
Apollo: Children of Apollo are some of the most diverse in powers because of his diverse list of domains.
- Prophecy: With the approval of your father, you have limit access to his gift of prophecy to help find the culprits. Each night target one person and see their faction (town, neutral, wolf).
- Smile like Sunshine: Children of Apollo are especially charming and have a way with words. Your vote counts as two when tabulating the result at the end of the day.
Second one is useful for town and wolves alike.
Hephaestus: You have knack for invention and crafting, much like your father.
- Scanner: You invented a scanner that lets you copy the abilities you see around you. Any power used on you gives you a single charge of that power to use on future nights.
- Booster: You have invented a device to help boost people's natural powers. Each day choose someone to target. That night they will be given a boost to their power. (Night actions that change your target or prevent your action will influence your action the following day.)
Aphrodite: You have inherited some of your mother's beauty and charm.
- Charmspeak: You have a supernatural talent for getting people to do what you want. Each night target one person. During the following day phase you will be able to change who that person is voting for.
- Deceptive Appearance: You are skilled at getting people to see what you want them to see when they look at you. Each night you may choose to change either what alignment you scry as or who your parent is revealed as for roles that target you that night.
Hermes: The children of Hermes might not always be the most skilled in battle but often are some of the stealthiest and most dexterous.
- Light of Foot: You are particularly stealthy and are able to follow people around without detection. Each night choose someone to track. You see who they target that night.
- Strategic Placement: You are not a fighter. More a runner. Each night choose one person to hide behind. Anyone who targets you that night will instead target the person you hid behind. Be careful though, if they die in the night, you will too.
Dionysus: You can be quite a lot of fun at parties, able to induce drunkenness or madness among those around you.
- Drunken Fun: Everyone is too stressed out and you just want to help them relax. Each night you can choose someone to help loosen up. They are unable to use their power that night and wake up with a hangover.
- Induce Madness: You are able to change people's perceptions and intentions by inducing minor madness. Choose one person and redirect who their power targets that night.
Hades: You're connection with your father gives you special powers over the dead or access to the underworld.
- Command Spirits: You have the ability to summon and control spirits. Each night choose one dead player and gain the use of their power for the night.
- Highway to Hades: You know a secret path from camp to the underworld. You begin with access to the "Underworld" QT and may speak freely in the QT with the dead players. At any point in the game, you can choose to end this access in exchange for bringing one dead player back into the game.
Order of cabin suspicion, most to least:
Ares
Aphrodite
Hermes
Dionysus
Athena
Hephaestus
Zeus
Hades
Apollo
Poseidon
Demeter
My thoughts:
1) There's no wolves in the blue section.
2) There's not more than one wolf in the teal section.
3) There's not more than two wolf in the orange section.
4) There's at least two wolves in the dark red section.
(incidentally, this sorta lines up with the lore - the top three have antagonist children in the original series, Dionysus and Athena themselves are kinda unfriendly, and the protagonist is a child of Poseidon.)Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-06-01 at 04:28 PM.
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2021-06-01, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-06-01, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
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2021-06-01, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
So first thing's first, we aren't going to get much more from batcathat. I'm gonna rescind my vote on them because the only point voting them now is to lynch them. (Not saying they're not a wolf, but anyway.)
But what I do want to do is put some pressure onAvatarVecnawho has shown up and posted big long walls of so far obvious information. Everything she's put up has felt like a contribution without contribution.
Can you put up any suspicions you have? (This is not meant as a serious lynch target yet, I just want more concrete present contribution from them.)
- - - Updated - - -
Also can someone verify Xih's past actions because that lynch pleading is bloody weirding me outLast edited by bladescape; 2021-06-02 at 03:17 AM.
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2021-06-01, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-06-02 at 11:47 AM.
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2021-06-01, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Who the bloody hell popularised self-voting while I was out.
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2021-06-01, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
idk about "popularized", but I've had a habit of self-voting at least once a game since before I started playing WW/Mafia on this site. I don't manage it every single game, and sometimes it works out better than other times.
I'm working on getting a proper feel for players, but there's a lot of them, and more than a few share avatars, so I'm doing some ISOs to keep things straight, so it'll take awhile.
- - - Updated - - -
Spoiler: Batcathat ISORandvote. Null.
Last bit feels weird, but not really able to put my finger on why.
Yeah okay I can't say I'm a fan of "I'm just following the crowd" protests. "I'm not leading this mob, I'm just lending it some more legitimacy" isn't exactly a stellar defense, it looks like somebody trying to take part in a mislynch without wanting to get blamed for taking part in a mislynch. On its own that's not really enough to lynch somebody normally, but it's as good a reason as any D1.
"I'd OMGUS vote somebody, except I know that looks bad, so I won't [winkyface]". Are you trying to look suspicious? Xihirli, somebody's copying your schtick!
From a more experienced player, I'd expect them to think through the Demeter claim privately before jumping right into questioning. A D1 mason claim is weird enough that you'd wanna give it some thought to think about what could be happening here and how you should react. I'm inclined to think this series of posts is gut reaction. I can see how some people might see this as immediately casting shade on the weird D1 mason claim, and from a more experienced wolf that's maybe what I'd expect (albeit more subtle than this), but given how new BCH is I'm inclined to think this is an excited townie digging into a claim they're not sure whether they should trust or not.
"Lol that makes me sound suspicious doesn't it, good thing I'm calling attention to it."
I'm honestly trying to think of something more textbook "Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf" than literally saying "wait did I just do what scum would do? oh well lol", and I'm not coming up with much.
I like that they don't seem to be backing down from their suspicion of Apogee just because town is pushing back against it. Townie points.
"I can't imagine I'd be staring at four votes if I just stayed silent."
Thank you, I almost forgot that I haven't checked to see if we've got any inactives to poke.
Null. Feels like speaking freely, but doesn't really lean either way.
At least at this point, roleclaiming wouldn't do much to help, no.
Null.
Feeling kinda sketchy about all this. Slight wolflean, would be stronger if they were a more veteran player.Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-06-01 at 05:59 PM.
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2021-06-01, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Could be a wolf trying to throw some shade on the mason as an attempt to stop a town network? There were several people (including me) who suggested far-fetched ways Apogee could be a lying wolf, but basically everyone except Valmark agreed that it's much more likely Apogee was town. Kinda weird that Valmark wouldn't realize that.
Valmark switching off Apogee:
Could be a townie realizing they're wrong. Could definitely also be a wolf realizing that their attempt to throw shade has failed and quietly backing off in the hopes of not looking too suspicious. It feels kinda off to me that Valmark didn't acknowledge Apogee's response to the above post, or even mention whether or not he still suspects Apogee. Maybe a sign of a wolf that never suspected Apogee in the first place?
Agreed, the lampshading feels weird but also it's pretty in line with how batcathat has been posting in the last couple games. I'm pretty neutral on them right now. I'd be more suspicious if they were more experienced.
Yeah, I don't like this either. Town always has a numbers advantage over wolves at the start of the game, and yet in other all-PR games we've still decided to lynch D1. And I know Xi knows that, so what's up with bringing up this suggestion in this game, and not any other all-PR game?
(Also, Xi calling to stop the bloodshed and violence is definitely weird. )
Any particular reason? There's a few different reasons people have given for voting batcathat, I'm curious which of them you agree with.
To clarify, I wasn't debating between voting for Valmark or you, I was debating between voting for Valmark versus voting for someone who voted for you, because your wagon sprang up suspiciously quickly.
I guess I could have left off the second paragraph and just voted Valmark, but I wanted to flag that the wagon was weird. And then I had to explain why I was voting Valmark instead of pursuing that suspicion.
FWIW Xi trying to get lynched and AV self-voting are both pretty typical for them regardless of alignment. Not that I don't think Xi is suspicious, because I definitely do, but not because of the asking to be lynched.
I wouldn't say self-voting is popularized, it's mostly just AV and occasionally Xi.
I think it's just Mornshine who's inactive now. But given the amount of activity that's happened so far, I think we can do better than "get rid of the inactive".
---
So I'm basically debating between voting Valmark or Xihirli right now. And looking at the votecount, I'm pretty surprised thatXihirlihas so few votes given what felt like several people voicing suspicion of her? Kinda makes me wonder if it's because her wolf teammates are holding out on voting her.
I'm ... moderately certain that this is a correct votecount. Hopefully.
Batcathat (5): Jeenleen, Bladescape, EmmyNecromancer, Zelphas, Murska
Valmark (3): AvatarVecna, Xihirli
AvatarVecna (2): Snowblaze, Shal06
Rogue_Alchemist (2): Flat_Footed, BookWombat
Totadileplayz (2): Batcathat, CaoimhinTheCape
BookWombat (2): Libro, Valmark
Xihirli (3): rogue_alchemist, Rogan, Elenna
JeenLeen (1): Totadileplayz
Not Voting (2): Apogee1, Mornshine
Apogee, I guess you're waiting to vote until you get more information from QTs?Last edited by Elenna; 2021-06-02 at 10:17 AM.
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2021-06-01, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Here's the thing. Town has won most of the games up to now just playing the same way boringly. I think we have enough town-wins under our belt that we can afford to try new things and get crazy.
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2021-06-01, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
@Elenna to clarify, in the first post you quoted from me I had already took the vote off of Apogee1 (like I said in it). Or I took it off immediately after, not sure.
I stayed for a bit without voting (if you check the vote counts you'll notice in some of them I was counted as not voting) then moved on Book Wombat.
- - - Updated - - -
Also yeah, I definitely still suspect Apogee1, I've got no reason not too. I took the vote off because I didn't feel alright voting the only claim we have, but that doesn't mean I'm not suspicious.
I didn't comment on the reply because what he said had already been said so it felt kinda pointless to add to it.
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2021-06-01, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
I tend to agree here. The claim should be verified. Although the seer probability should only claim if he needs to counter the claim.
21 players. Probably 1 neutral? That leaves 20 for town/scum, so probably a 15/5 split? 16/4 feels too little, and while I could maybe see 14/6 if their powers are generally weak, I wouldn't bet on wolves having strong numbers and weak powers - that seems like setting up for disappointment. With 11 cabins with 2 powers each, we've probably got two representatives from most cabins. Some of those are gonna be wolves, but probably not two wolves from the same cabin for the most part. Let's see...
Spoiler: Roles analysis
ZEUS
First power makes sense for scum, second power doesn't.
If you don't, this could be used to trick everyone about Apogees claim and might help the wolves by getting the seer to claim. Swap Apogee with a wolf and there would be quite some damage to the town.
POSEIDON
First power is unlikely as a wolf. It's not a daybane, so it's not immunity to losing if they've got one, but even then, bane is much weaker in the hands of wolves than town, just because town is less likely to be throwing around NKs.
Second power is not a wolf power in any universe.
DEMETER
Never a wolf. If there were no demeter in-game and wolves knew that, I could see them claiming demeter as a safeclaim, but given the game size, it's almost a guarantee that there's demeters in game, and that means it's not a safeclaim cuz a counterclaim could easily come in.
I mean, free QTs for everyone, so the only advantage they have is knowing each other as town. This is useful and Apogee makes use of this role already, so my intuition might be wrong about the power of this ability...
But if the wolves know these are not in play and they have the right abilities, this could be a real effective plot. Claim siblings, fake the role at night or redirect the powers.
Of corse this plot requires a special knowledge for team wolf that was not mentioned before (knowing the role is not in the game)
ARES
Either of these could work as a wolf power.
ATHENA
I'm unclear if the first power is track+devil, or just devil. Either way, it's useful to wolves. Second power (motion detector) is also useful to wolves.
APOLLO
First one is alignment scry, so useless to wolves...except for neutral-hunting, I suppose? I'd only expect this to be a wolf if scumteam is 6-man band.
Second one is useful for town and wolves alike.
HEPHAESTUS
Either of these works well as a wolf power.
APHRODITE
Both of these feel like wolf powers.
The vote manipulation could be very funny (make a wolf kill a wolf) but I think it's more likely to be a wolf power.
HERMES
This makes me inclined to think that the Athena power is just a devil power, since this is a track. I could see either of these as a wolf power.
Tracking seems more like a town power, but no strong opinion here.
DIONYSUS
Both of these powers are pretty useful to wolves.
HADES
The first can work well as a wolf power. The second is problematic as a wolf power, but that's at least partially cuz it's just plain problematic. If there was a power I would expect to not be in the game, it's that second Hades one.
If the second ability is in the game and town aligned, use it on Gac night 1. He is town and I've got a feeling, he might know things nobody else does. He can tell us day 2 and the game is basically over. Dionysus might need to make him drunk for the rest of Gacs life though, to protect everybody from the smell
I think, if this is in play, it would be more useful for town than wolf. A wolf would be an obvious target, while a townie could mean a second chance of keeping someone alive for one round or two.
NEUTRALS
Well, I think it's save to assume there is at least one neutral role. My guess would be two or even three.
This means, between two and four roles are not in play.
Order of cabin suspicion, most to least:
Ares
Aphrodite
Hermes
Dionysus
Athena
Hephaestus
Zeus
Hades
Apollo
Poseidon
Demeter
My thoughts:
1) There's no wolves in the blue section.
2) There's not more than one wolf in the teal section.
3) There's not more than two wolf in the orange section.
4) There's at least two wolves in the dark red section.
(incidentally, this sorta lines up with the lore - the top three have antagonist children in the original series, Dionysus and Athena themselves are kinda unfriendly, and the protagonist is a child of Poseidon.)
Might do so later.
Might also add some more thoughts about the roles, who is in the game and at what side.
Edit: I tend to trust Apogee. But I have to wonder his death would be more helpful than his life.
A certain reveal without risk of outing a seer, plus his ally can continue his work, taking to persons he trusts in the QT Apogee sent.
It's not enough to make me want him to die, but I had to get this off my head.Last edited by Rogan; 2021-06-01 at 07:18 PM. Reason: one more thought
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2021-06-01, 07:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Spoiler: bladescape ISOSome decent points but nothing too concrete - makes sense for how early in the day it was made. Feels a bit more towny than scummy at least.
It's a good and fair callout, even if my initial response was to joke by giving yet another thing to weird out over. Townie points.
Null. Legit annoyance but could come from either side.
Slight town lean, but also I'm worried. Reading through the thread, I had the impression that bladescape was much more in the thick of things for some reason. There's a lot of mentions and replies, but very few actual posts from them. I don't necessarily think bladescape is a wolf trying to look busy without actually contributing much, but if they are they're doing a fantastic job of it.
- - - Updated - - -
Spoiler: Book Wombat ISO
Slight scum lean. BW is typically pretty low-activity, although what little we have does at least have something worth thinking about. It's very little, but it's more than I'm used to getting from the less-active players so I'll take it.
- - - Updated - - -
This isn't a point against Cao, I'm just addressing it now cuz I didn't think of it in the BCH ISO: looking skeptical for the sake of not looking like you know for a fact Apogee is telling the truth just makes you look suspicious. If you think there's a scheme going on, dig into it and unearth it, don't just hem and haw like "idk if I can trust them aaaaaaaaaa". Yeah, it's weird that a mason claimed D1 when not even leading a wagon, but doing nothing about it but make noises of suspicion does more to harm the case against Apogee than help.
Spoiler: CaoimhinTheCape ISOVote counts used to be the classic "information without analysis" wolf move, and then Cao came along and did them constantly.
It's good that the seeming-inconsistency was getting called out, but it's not like it was subtle that something was wrong, so no points for calling out the obvious mistake.
I've already asked a question about this post and I'm still waiting on an answer.
I've addressed this outside the ISO so I'll leave it be. The post itself is null: at the point in the thread this post was made, I could see a townie putting effort into puzzling through any possible scheme, but I could see a wolf putting this much effort in as well.
I can't speak for the others but my valmark vote at the time was just early randvoting, not based on anything in particular. I'm also not really inclined to view the people that were voting me as less wolfy for it - I'm not saying they're necessarily wolfy for doing so, I'm just saying that "wolves wouldn't wagon somebody that early" isn't necessarily true, and it's especially not true if they're all voting somebody's who's a frequent target D1. If the votes on me had been a bit more spread out, it would barely be any more suspicious than usual, which makes it good cover for getting wolves all voting on one person D1. In a game this big, 4-6 people on one wagon D1 is death.
Null, although that might change depending on how they react to some other things that have occurred.
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2021-06-01, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
It's called content. People interact with stuff and therefore my name pops up a lot. Or maybe I'm just that handsome.
2nd:
I don't like Cao. And I don't like AV defending or nullifying the potential points against him.
Feel free to read through AV's ISO above to form your own opinions on it, but if you're going to call BookWombat a wolflean on two posts and negligible content it seems a little incongruous to then say a null on Cao.
(The exception is if everyone agrees this is some meta about Cao I don't know, but right now we call that S U S)"Trust bladescape, Shadow of Doubt,"
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2021-06-01, 10:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Cao has wagon analysis and called somebody out on their actions not matching their words. Book Wombat has done basically nothing except something that looks slightly wolfy and then commented on how wolfy the thing they did looks. Cao has put forth 267 words of content to analyze (not counting the votecount stuff), while Book Wombat has put forth 63. I'm not really sure why you think they're comparable at all. Cao is most comparable to you: just a few posts, light analysis and contributions but nothing really solid either way, 271 words of content.
Additionally, I'm not ignoring the points that have been raised against him. In point of fact, I'm one of the people with an unaddressed point raised against him that I'm waiting on an answer for, and that answer will probably affect my opinion of him. I'm just doing this analysis via ISOs, and doing stuff in alphabetical order, and haven't really had the opportunity to react to people calling him out. At least partially because except Batcathat, none of the ISOs I've done so far have very much in the way of content.
(And that's not looking to change anytime soon. People seem to think this game has more activity than usual, when really it just has more players. There's waaaaaaay too many people who don't even have a half-dozen posts yet for my tastes, but I know that not everybody is as unfond of the "silent townie" approach as I am.)
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2021-06-01, 10:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
I somehow missed the start of the thread, to be presented with four full pages.
AV seems to be acting fairly in-character. Though, it's a bit early in the thread for self-voting and long analyses.
Having read through them,Xihriliis incredibly suspicious. Her posts are just off, not so much in substance but in style. For example:
Xi's grammar is usually better than this, and her tone is usually enthusiastic and borderline-suspicious. That's her whole schtick. At least, from the handful of games I've played with her. This post smacks of almost desperation.
I also note the use of the word "we" in this post, something that's odd for Xi-- she tends to stay a bit aloof, in line with the lynch-pleading. Maybe an intentional wolf deception, maybe a slip of the tongue. And also subject to the grammar and style oddities.
Unfortunately, I could see this discrepancy being the result of a Town role as a Wolf role, from what little I've seen of Xi. Nonetheless, she's still my strongest wolf-read in the thread so far.Last edited by MornShine; 2021-06-03 at 01:12 AM.
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
I vary my grammar! I don't have to obey your rules! OR YOU'RE RULES!
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2021-06-01, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
I haven't checked to confirm but I think at this point we not only have 21 players but all of them have posted during day one?
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2021-06-01, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Let me elaborate for you.
1. Number of words don't mean ****. Until it's substantial enough of content vs no content. Pre-400 word counts are, at best, misleading.
2. I'll pay you that he pointed out one thing. I did kinda breeze over that one, so my bad.
3. Pending his response, to be honest I dislike that play a lot from him in the first place.
4. Thank you for the response, I was poking the bear to see how it reacted so that was a nice meaty response.
Finally:
I take some minor offense that you think my contribution quality is the same as Cao's. He has so far waffled on, made irrelevant votes, (Both times voting for people who were not near lynch contender.) made no strong arguments for anyone bar one minor note which could've been an easy throwaway, and provided null analysis. Particularly:
Gonna do a cheap vote against Totadileplayz for now. If we have such a large game I'm more OK spending Day 1 with a vote on someone who hasn't posted yet, so we don't run into too many afk players going forward. I'm also not a huge fan of any of the wagons:
The AvatarVecna wagon did build very quickly so there's a little worry that it was wolves jumping on a good wagon for them.
Valmark's counterwagon seems to be for the sake of having someone else to vote. I didn't get any wolf vibes from his post so of the three that's the lest likely for me to get a vote.
I haven't seen Batcat play as wolf yet so I don't know what is a wolf read and what is regular posting. Lampshading anything that might look bad feels wolf like to me but that's been pretty standard. On the other hand, Batcat has been engaging people in conversations and I like that.
(That being said, direct correlation to BookWombat was a little inaccurate of a statement on reflection. I was just incensed by seeing "null" on someone I thought obvious wolf-telling.)"Trust bladescape, Shadow of Doubt,"
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2021-06-01, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Spoiler: Elenna ISOI think I've put my finger on why this feels weird. A townie who said they'd vote Valmark would just vote Valmark - it's her first post, who cares, it'll get changed later. But when there's a big wagon on AV, and AV is voting Valmark already and nobody else is, putting your vote on Valmark is creating a counterwagon. That's why there's this hemming and hawwing to justify a vote she already said she'd probably cast. A townie wouldn't feel so inclined to care that hard about their first vote, but I could definitely see a wolf second-guessing themself in such a situation. Scum lean.
While I don't think the thing being called out is too unreasonable (I think it's more just a veteran seeing newbs as wolfy than a wolf seeing newbs as easy mislynches), I appreciate the callout occurring. Slight town lean.
This is some of the initial "can we trust the claim" discussion, so it gets a pass. There's stuff that happens later on that I kinda take issue with.
...
...oh boy, big reaction post. Let's split this up:
I definitely agree that it looks like Valmark is being skeptical for the sake of looking skeptical. I'll discuss that more in Valmark's ISO, but for now I'll say that I like this callout. Towniepoints.
Agreed, the lampshading feels weird but also it's pretty in line with how batcathat has been posting in the last couple games. I'm pretty neutral on them right now. I'd be more suspicious if they were more experienced.
Yeah, I don't like this either. Town always has a numbers advantage over wolves at the start of the game, and yet in other all-PR games we've still decided to lynch D1. And I know Xi knows that, so what's up with bringing up this suggestion in this game, and not any other all-PR game?
(Also, Xi calling to stop the bloodshed and violence is definitely weird. )
...oh, null. Elenna is familiar enough with Xihirli to find this worth calling out regardless of her own alignment.
Any particular reason? There's a few different reasons people have given for voting batcathat, I'm curious which of them you agree with.solved the game from the grave D2good and ready.
To clarify, I wasn't debating between voting for Valmark or you, I was debating between voting for Valmark versus voting for someone who voted for you, because your wagon sprang up suspiciously quickly.
I guess I could have left off the second paragraph and just voted Valmark, but I wanted to flag that the wagon was weird. And then I had to explain why I was voting Valmark instead of pursuing that suspicion.
FWIW Xi trying to get lynched and AV self-voting are both pretty typical for them regardless of alignment. Not that I don't think Xi is suspicious, because I definitely do, but not because of the asking to be lynched.
I wouldn't say self-voting is popularized, it's mostly just AV and occasionally Xi.
I think it's just Mornshine who's inactive now. But given the amount of activity that's happened so far, I think we can do better than "get rid of the inactive".
So I'm basically debating between voting Valmark or Xihirli right now. And looking at the votecount, I'm pretty surprised that Xihirli has so few votes given what felt like several people voicing suspicion of her? Kinda makes me wonder if it's because her wolf teammates are holding out on voting her.
Generally, slight townie lean, but the first post still feels really sketchy to me. It might just be first impression coloring my overall opinion, but I think it's plausible that Elenna is a veteran wolf who stumbled a bit in her first post and then got into a proper rhythm as a good little pretend-townie.
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Spoiler: EmmyNecromancer ISOSkipping is bad, but she's new so hrmm...
Randvotes are all the rage ITP. Null.
I've already responded to this, although I think I need to walk back part of it: I'm forgiving of this attitude in a new player, but somebody who's played a good bit of forum WW/Mafia should really know better. Statistically speaking, "no vote D1" is a bad move, even if for multiple reasons it has the lowest chance of all lynches to catch a wolf. Better to take the risk than to sit and do nothing. We have first move advantage, don't give it up for no reason.
...okay so I mentioned that Cao always does votecounts, but it's always because Cao was posting something else and gathers a votecount to accompany his normal post as well. A votecount with nothing else isn't very helpful.
...see I thought it couldn't look worse than a bare votecount, and then you add a "I'd change my vote but it would make me look suspicious".
Slight wolf lean.
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Null. If it were somebody else, a single bare post would make me suspect the person is trying to fly under the radar, but FF is a mod so they're probably just busy. As always, I'd still like to see more content from them.
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Spoiler: JeenLeen ISOI kinda get the logic here, but I don't like it. JeenLeen smells something wrong with the AV wagon and wants to vote one of the people on it. His options are two recently-returned veterans, one utterly new player, and one with just a few games under their belt. BCH wasn't picked for being the most suspicious of the people on the AV wagon, but for...let's call it "ww/mafia forum etiquette". It could be a townie playing by etiquette, or it could be a wolf who wants to lynch the person on that wagon least likely to result in backlash on the wolf.
I can appreciate the effort being put in to think through possible schemes here. And as fun as it is initially, I don't think gac would pull a town/wolf mason combo, that kinda thing tends to upset people in my experience. >.>
No lynch D1 is a win for wolves too - it means one less kill to analyze, it means arguments to lynch this person vs that person take longer for us to get to analyze. D1, especially a D1 that's going like today has gone, is a goldmine of information to be untapped, and skipping the vote delays that information being available. Every third post or something like that has speculation on what this or that could mean, but a lynch gives us concrete information to build theories around, rather than pure theoretical conjecture.
Solid reaction to tot's post, and I like just asking Xi outright even if it's not really a lean either way. Slight townlean for the tot stuff.
Townie's and wolves alike are capable of moves that make them look wolfish. The difference is, "don't look wolfy" isn't a townie's top priority, a townie's top priority is catching wolves, and this sometimes means that they do something wolfy because they weren't thinking about controlling their image. For a wolf, "dont look wolfy" is top priority, so when they include something in a post that looks wolfy, they can either remove it (which makes the post flow differently than it did when they originally typed it up), or they can leave in the wolfy-looking thing. A simple second draft of the post would do wonders for many a wolf, so that their post flows properly while excluding or dodging around the wolfy thing their first draft did, but people are lazy by default so it's either delete it and make the post read weirder, or lampshade the wolfiness.
Null.
Null read overall. There's a few things I like, and there's a few that rub me the wrong way.
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Spoiler: Libro ISO
Urgh. Low activity, but that's Libro for you. Null in the way I don't particularly like, slight wolf lean I guess but it's probably just my bias against low-activity playstyles.
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Spoiler: MornShine ISOI've started "early" because there's a lot of posts to dig through despite how we're like halfway through D1. I honestly wish people were posting even more, but them's the shakes.
I appreciate that he's come into the thread with thoughts on things going on rather than just dropping a randvote before leaving to analyze. I can't say I've really seen a grammar analysis before - of course, I'm also not really sure this is all that different from Xihirli's usual typing style (even if the tone is a bit less bloodsoaked than usual). I can't say I necessarily agree with the conclusion, but I like the direction the post is going in, I have good feelings about MornShine.
Slight townlean, marred only by a lack of activity that I'm hoping will be soon rectified.
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Spoiler: Murska ISO
Null. I got exactly what I expected from this ISO: nothing to go on whatsoever either way.Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-06-02 at 12:09 AM.
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2021-06-02, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2019
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Overall, I do not feel confident to read anyone based on a total of 3 games, I Trust Apogee, and that's about my only town-read right now. Ultimately I can not see The Wolves trying to attempt it as it sacrifices a wolf, and people are dis-incentivised to try to reveal the roles day 1. Ultimately all that means is that there will be a focus on them. Possible neutral that somehow knew the demeter cabin wasn't in the game? Maybe, overall I believe it's just best to trust it.
Another contestant? Bookwombat he's as others have pointed out basically just did I did a wolfy play, let me point out I made a wolfy play. Then be quiet for the rest of the game. While Batcathat, and Xihirli are weird this game, I don't see it as particularly wolfy weird.Bookwombat.
There aren't even any real plays I can point out logistical problems with as everything seems to make sense. So, can't point at someone there, no one to bounce ideas off of either. So... Yeah. Guess I'm voting Bookwombat.Last edited by totadileplayz; 2021-06-03 at 12:32 AM.
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2021-06-02, 01:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Morning. I see I missed a lot. Vaguely caught-up-ish and feeling like I need to skim through ISOs to get a firm grip on the game. In the meantime, since I don’t feel like voting for the current wagons right now, let’s see what happens if I vote for
CaoimhinTheCape.Last edited by Snowblaze; 2021-06-03 at 09:22 AM.
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Werewolf games won: 28
Werewolf games lost: 18
Games as town: 28.5
Games as neutral: 6.5
Games as wolf: 11
Games narrated: 2
Deaths: 30
Extended Signature
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2021-06-02, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Spoiler: Rogan ISOAs before, I'm not fond of any argument to skip the D1 lynch, and this one providing additional reasons to do so is striking me badly.
Null, nothing to indicate alignment here.
I like calling out mistakes in the votecount. It gives good reason to look at the people tabulating the votes, to see if it looks like they're trying to skew public perception of the lynch.
...
...next one is big, so let's cut down to the parts I wanna address.
Before I go off on my enormous tangent about Apogee, I'll just say that I'm not fond of the shade being cast at this point. It's already been discussed to death. The situations where this is a fakeclaim are either exceedingly unlikely or extremely easy to check/counterclaim - in particular, a counterclaim is a good idea for the reasons I'm about to go into. At this point, if you're questioning the claim, you need to present a plausible reason for doing so - a scheme or scenario that hasn't been considered. This hand-wringing "I wanna trust it but idk if wolves had the right power combo this could hand them the game" and not specifying what that "nightmare combo nobody else has considered" is, just looks scummy.
Spoiler: My Thoughts On Apogee"his death would be more helpful than his life" IME you are correct. Masons + QT Spam = Boring Town Win. Here's the order of events:
1) Mason!Apogee publicly reveals D1, makes QTs with absolutely everybody. Apogee shares these links in the mason chat.
2) Apogee is murdered in the night. Nobody scried him, nobody watched him, nobody baned him. Only a wolf targeted him, and nobody was tracking that wolf. It's a complete mystery who performed the kill. Apogee is revealed as a townie and a mason, and their mason buddy is still both alive and anonymous.
3) The other Mason logs into QT with a pseudonym (ie "Child Of Demeter") and proceeds to make contact through all the QT links they have from the mason chat.
4) Every true townie gives an honest claim and conspires with the mason to catch the wolves. The mason knows the most and is demonstrably trustworthy, so it's best if they pick the lynch and the night targets as part of their larger scheme to catch wolves not obeying.
At this point, the game balance has shifted dramatically in town's favor. The mason doesn't know which claims they can trust, but all townies know they can trust the mason even if they don't know who the mason is.
The wolves have to decide between claiming their real roles or fakeclaiming something else. If they fakeclaim, it's easier to catch them not obeying mason instructions because they're incapable of obeying mason instructions - and even with three neutrals, there's probably five wolves, which means there aren't enough fakeclaims to go around, somebody is going to claim something that somebody else has claimed, and that will get announced by the mason via some other player (ie "mason says that these two people have both claimed to be the Ares with the survival power. Let's test that, shall we?"). Final fakeclaim option is some nebulous neutral, but there can only be so many of those: even if I'm correct and there's only one neutral in the game, if all the wolves claim neutral, the mason will smell rats. You could maybe get away with two neutral claims, if I'm correct and there's only one real neutral in play - but I might be wrong, and even a single neutral fakeclaim by a wolf will result in four neutral claims made to the mason, which still means a rattish smell. Fakeclaiming is a great way to get caught either immediately or shortly.
If they give a true claim, this at least gives them the ability to obey (even if they don't want to), and it means their claims shouldn't contradict anybody elses, but it also puts their night actions in control of the network or they risk getting caught disobeying. It also means that they get analyzed a bit based on how useful their power would be as a wolf vs as a townie; there's several powers wolves probably don't have, and a few that they probably do have, and having one of those "looks like a wolf power" powers is gonna put extra attention on them. This, incidentally, is why analyzing the roles to see which make more sense as town powers or wolf powers is useful information - it gives the mason something to think about when they're getting claims post-apogee-murder.
Wolf priorities at this point have shifted to include a few things:
1) Don't let Apogee die, and cast shade on the mason claim so that people aren't as likely to claim to him until he dies.
2) In case Apogee dies, figure out how we're gonna claim to the anonymous mason.
2a) If fakeclaiming, have one or two claim neutral, and the others claim roles that are hopefully not present and not easily provable.
2b) If realclaiming, make sure to cast shade on anybody trying to analyze which powers are more or less likely to be wolves, like calling out the people who did it as wasting time with useless information with the intent to look more helpful than they really are.
Per the wolf priorities, villager priorities also shift slightly. The weirdest shift is definitely that it's probably in our best interest to kill Apogee unless we're pretty sure we've caught a wolf today: the sooner we can confirm Apogee as mason, the sooner we can get the ball rolling on that super network.
Of course, all of that is the upside of this strategy. Now we get to the downside, which is that it's anti-fun. It's not fun for Apogee, who did the right thing and gets killed for it by town. It's not for for Apogee's mason buddy, who now has to control all the powers in the game, while figuring out how to test players for disobedience/scumminess, while not accidentally revealing themselves to wolves in any of a number of ways. It's not fun for wolves, who now have to focus all their effort on fooling the mason long enough to kill the mason before the mason finds somebody they can absolutely trust to hand the network to in the event of their death. It's not fun for the rest of town, whose optimal strategy is to allow themselves to be led around by the nose by an anonymous poster, while doing as much as possible to obfuscate who that mason could be so that they don't accidentally give the game away to any wolves they're talking to.
You have analysis? Share that privately with the mason, but otherwise keep it to yourself. You have a scheme to pull? It better focus around taking out the mason. You've got a neutral goal and don't wanna get ganked? Better kowtow to the mason. The entire game shifts to focus around one player. It's optimal play for town, but it's not really fun. And the game can shift to this so quickly when it's like this: if the masons didn't pull this trick, then the game would take place 90% in QTs as players start privately talking with all other players, webs of links connecting everyone to everyone while they compare notes on who seems to be changing their suspicions depending on who they're talking to. It's all this exciting analysis...and then one of the masons dies anyway, an anonymous person shows up in that mason's chats, and now it's back to the boring version.
Anybody with the scanner would have a reason to draw night actions. However, a wolf would have to be careful, since I can't think of a non ridiculous way to draw the heat and survive it for a long time. So I tend to think the scanner would be town.
Lots of options.
Slight scum lean. There's some stuff I like here, but some of it really rubs me the wrong way.
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Spoiler: rogue_alchemist ISOGood callout without being too harsh. Kinda null read for this game, but I like seeing this for community-growth reasons.
More of the same.
This is a bit before Apogee claimed, so it's not calling out Cao specifically for voting a mason. It looks better in hindsight than it was at the time because of that.
Null, the analysis part could be made by anybody, as could the given clarification on roles.
RA is making a habit of explaining concepts to the new players. It's a good attitude in general, but at this point I must also consider that it's a good way to look more helpful than you're actually being to the game.
Mmm.
Null. Anybody can want to kill Xihirli.
Forum functionality. Null outside the aforementioned "looking busy" thing.
More of the same.
Clarification post. Null.
Forum functionality. Null.
This started out good with talking about stuff that isn't the game, but then it just kept going and there wasn't really much actual discussion of the game ever. There's a lot of words here, but barely any of them focused on the strategy and tactics and lynch. I can't tell if this is just RA being a kinda casual townie unconcerned with the gamestate, or scum doing a phenomenal job of disguising nongame discussion as activity. Slight scum lean.
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Spoiler: Shal06 ISO
Null for now. Might just be a new player who isn't particularly active, might be a new wolf who's avoiding posting because they're not sure how to post without looking wolfy - a common enough anxiety. I wanna see more activity so I can get a better feel for them either way.
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Spoiler: Snowblaze ISORandvote, null.
Nice response, but could've come from a wolf or townie, so NAI.
It's pretty early for reads. There's nothing too controversial or weird here, but because there's not much to go on, it's mostly obvious stuff.
A decent response, although not really alignment indicative.
This feels good to me, better than some of the other meandering theories were coming out of the gate. This feels slightly more town than most I've read so far.
Null, it's pushing for more discussion but it's an easy push to make given the context.
Null, although looking forward to seeing her thoughts once she's caught up.
Slight town lean. Got a good feeling about Snowblaze.Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-06-02 at 01:40 AM.
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2021-06-02, 02:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Since I'm on my way to work, I don't have lots of time left to reply to this, so this post will be shorter than I'd like it to be.
About Apogee: I don't trust him 100% yet. But right now, there does not seem to be any proof.
Killing him would be a proof, but I agree it would not be a nice thing to do so. It would mean to kill somebody you belive to be town. It might yield more info, but it feels like an evil move.
So I would like to have another way to proof his claim. If possible, without outing important power roles.
I suggested to use info gathering roles on him, only claiming if you find a contradiction. I might have missed it, but is there a reason this would not work or otherwise be a bad plan? Except the scanner thing?
About voting not kill, I guess I'm missing the experience to judge what is worth more, a death reveal or one more active power role in night 1. The chances of catching a wolf by chance is quite low, after all. So, in short, despite your wolf read, I stand by my thought:
No lynch has some advantages. I have to admit it also has disadvantages. That's one reason I'm following the general advice to vote to kill.
To come to an end, before I'm away:
You have good points, but I'd like to hear your answers to the following questions.
Do you propose to verify Apogees claim? If yes, how?
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2021-06-02, 02:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
Spoiler: totadileplayz ISOOMGUS at its finest. Null I guess, idk. Getting tired.
lmao guess I'm not the only tired one.
Forum functionality. Null.
Alrighty a solid post to work with. I think this is the first suggestion that apogee could be neutral. I like tot not just taking the easy path and jumping on a wagon - I could see a wolf doing that. Slight townie points, although I'll keep in mind the possibility of a BCH/tot wolfteam.
Slight town lean but it's pretty shaky. Hopefully much more activity incoming.
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Spoiler: Valmark ISOLooks worse in hindsight than it was at the time. Null.
*nods*
Scumlean. Either you doubt it for a reason, and keep your vote there, or you think it through and realize the claim is almost certainly legit, like basically everybody. This honestly reads like "I still suspect you, but I don't wanna attract attention for voting the claimed mason so I'll move my vote elsewhere".
This continues feeling kinda wishywashy.
Poking an inactive instead of addressing posts calling him out hmmmmm.
Given what all has happened and been discussed, I'd really like to hear the scenario that to your mind justifies continued suspicion.
Wolf lean, easily my strongest yet.
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Spoiler: Xihirli ISOCounterwagon for counterwagon's sake, and valmark hadn't been weird yet. Possible AV/Xihirli scumteam?
Yeah, really not liking the "no voting D1" ball this post started rolling with others picking it up later. Hrm...
Normally RP happens before serious game posts but ok. Null, Xihirli being Xihirli.
Forum functionality, null.
RP.
Forum functionality.
RP.
An odd sentiment, but could just be a Xihirli-ism. Hard to say.
RP.
Slight scum lean, but could just be typical Xihirli stuff.
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Spoiler: Zelphas ISO
Null for now.
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In order of suspicion from least to most:
Apogee1
Snowblaze
(Elenna)
MornShine
(bladescape)
totadileplayz
Shal06
Zelphas
Libro
flat_footed
JeenLeen
CaoimhinTheCape
Murska
Xihirli
Batcathat
Book Wombat
EmmyNecromancer
rogue_alchemist
(bladescape)
Rogan
(Elenna)
Valmark
AvatarVecna
(And yes, that's a vote on Valmark)
I'm sorry I don't share your conviction based on three mostly-neutral posts? *shrugs* I've seen Cao play wolf quite a bit, both as town and scum myself, and I'm not exactly seeing any red flags. There's one kinda good thing (calling out another player on being inconsistent), and one kinda bad thing (explaining that callout after it became a bad idea to explain it), and then the same kind of middling commentary that half the players in the game have made.
Which, if we wanna talk about middling commentary and null analysis...
There's a decent chance that if Cao is wolf then one of AV/Valmark/Batcat is also wolf.
The strength of the "boring town win" plan is in the guarantee that the hidden mason is trustworthy despite being alive and anonymous. Normally, the only time you can 100% trust someone is what you think they are is after the narrator has confirmed it following that person's death. There are three scenarios where we can have 100% trust in a player this game: first, in a private chat with a now-dead mason, the other mason talks to us (anonymously or otherwise); second, that one Poseidon power is used to have the narrator publicly claim your role (which could be used to absolutely private-claim to two people instead, which doesn't get you a giant pile of claims from everybody but is probably safer tbh); third, you have been brought back from the dead via that one Hades power. In two of these three scenarios, the 100% trustworthy person is also at risk of being intentionally targeted by scumteam.
That's it. Any other "proof" is largely going to depend on info-gathering roles, except there's multiple target-switching powers available, and almost certainly at least one of them is in play. Given that switch-powers (usually) don't inform the person that their target has been switched without their knowledge, info-gathering abilities aren't as reliable as narrator reveals or mason QT shenanigans. Obviously they could be quite dependable, but it's not going to be quite as rocksolid.
...but it would still probably work out just fine. An alignment-scry or role-scry could confirm Apogee in the seer's mind.Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-06-02 at 11:48 AM.
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2021-06-02, 03:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
See, you vacillate between looking good at analysis and then you pull this. Sarcasm doesn't become you.
That being said, after reading your ISOs over, I'm going to move vote off you, I don't need anything more.
TO explain the thing that was sarcasmed:
No one else has tried discrediting every wagon so far. Generally a "I don't like all the wagons" is what a lot of town will do, or they'll acknowledge the ones they don't mind.
To go to the effort of describing the reasons he doesn't like all the wagons? Leans wolf for me. Wolves in the absence of scrutiny are more likely to attempt to justify something they don't need to justify.
That being said, all that everyone has said is Day 1 reads. None of them are going to have the strength of a lategame ISO finding trends or interesting information uncovered in hindsight.
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CaoimhinTheCape
Please tell us your reads and thoughts on the current situation.Last edited by bladescape; 2021-06-02 at 06:16 PM.
"Trust bladescape, Shadow of Doubt,"
My almighty and all knowing extended Signature lies HERE! Now includes awesome quotes!
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2021-06-02, 03:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
You look less scummy for having finally gotten some bite to match all the barking you were doing.
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2021-06-02, 03:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Percy Jackson
I'm AV's top non-confirmed townread. That makes me very paranoid.
That being said, I agree with a good proportion of their reads. The major points of difference are Valmark and totadile.
Valmark's reaction to the claim reminds me of HP Mafia and "Snowblaze claimed Seer, she must be a wolf". He was town that game. On the other hand he moved his vote away from rather than onto the claim this time... so it's not a super strong read, but strong enough for day one purposes. And I used to know how to read Valmark... let's see if I still do.
There were a couple of things I didn't like about Totadile - I think his focus on and random vote for Jeen (especially a good way into the day) was my main problem with them, as it feels like something a wolf could easily hide behind. But I don't know them at all, so I could definitely be wrong on this one.I'm writing stuff, come and read it!
Werewolf games won: 28
Werewolf games lost: 18
Games as town: 28.5
Games as neutral: 6.5
Games as wolf: 11
Games narrated: 2
Deaths: 30
Extended Signature