Evangelical Gish

[KyleG]

There was a chat in here about Gishes not long ago and i supposed my definition would be being able to melee attack and cast in a single turn. That suggests to me Sorcerer (with quicken) multi, Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger.

My current character idea evokes comparison to Ebony Maw in Avengers Infinity War. It wasn't intentional (got told githyanki) but he certainly feels like him in many way. I want him to be a worshipper of some god and given the chance upon entering a situation he may be heard saying a similar spiel.
"Hear me and rejoice! You have had the privilege of being saved by the Great Titan. You may think this is suffering. No... it is salvation. The universal scales tip toward balance because of your sacrifice. Smile... for even in death, you have become children of Thanos."

But that doesn't translate necessarily into Cleric and i wanted to try and capture three things

• Be able to stand at the front at the start without too much fear.
• Fight in melee if necessary.
• very much show off that psionic feel, telekinetic, wave of a hand to send a problem or solution away from his sight.

So my current thinking is just background and roleplay the religious aspects. You don't have to be a cleric to be devout.
Class wise i really like the aberrant sorcerer with its 6th level ability making things interesting gaining power with your spell slots AND casting with a free SUBTLE. Feels very inline with magic being merely a thought.
Githyanki get swords and medium armour proficiency so strictly speaking a melee class isnt needed but would it be more optimal?

I looked at Psi Warrior but its a long way to those 7th level features and i think you would then have to make it a 12/8 split sorcerer/fighter.
Rune Knight you could get away with only 4 levels in and get some benefits that might work.
Lore bard keeps spell progression and could lean into a religious angle with his knowledge.
Paladin of the Ancients seems the most fitting of the paladins going to 8 for another 12/8 split. Traditionally Paladins are all about the smites and this character is more of the 'defensively kill minions in melee while using magic to control things all the while walking around telling people to rejoice.

What are your thoughts? How would you build the idea? What other options should i relook at/reflavour and reconsider? As i get to the bottom of this post im thinking back on cleric and perhaps this particular character doesn't have to be a gish. A combo of spirit guardians and then sanctuary provides some great defense (brandishing off the minions) as one walks around spouting the good lords words. Infact Order Domain could work quite well.

[RogueJK]

Something to consider is a Celestial Tomelock. See the Celestial Generalist here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...fective-Builds

It's a good option for a religious-flavored gish, getting you decently hard-hitting CHA-based melee using Shillelagh + Green Flame Blade with extra fire damage from Level 6+, plus a solid ranged option with Eldritch Blast (or Sacred Flame if they're behind cover), along with the usual Warlock spellcasting with the ability to poach some handy spells from the Cleric list, and great utility thanks to 9 cantrips and access to all of the ritual spells in the game through the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation.

One of my current characters is a Celestial Tomelock evangelist for a cult. He's not a Cleric or a "priest", just a lay preacher who has been imbued with power by his deity. It has worked out well, both in and out of combat.

Since you're going with a Githyanki, who already have racial Medium Armor proficiency, you can get away with skipping the Moderately Armored feat that is in the recommended Celestial Generalist build linked above (although that extra +2 AC from shield proficiency will be missed). It would look something like:
Githyanki Celestial Tomelock
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 15+1
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+2
Wear Half Plate armor and wield a quarterstaff.
At Level 4 take the Telekinetic feat for +1 CHA, Bonus Action psychic shove ability, and extra range on your racial Mage Hand. Then take Warcaster at Level 8 for Booming Blade OAs and Advantage on Concentration checks. Then +2 CHA at Level 12 to max out your Charisma.


Another good option would be a Paladin 2 or 6/Aberrant Mind Sorcerer X, as a zealous warrior of the faith who focuses more on spellcasting than a traditional Paladin, but can still swing a weapon on the frontline and smite hard.

[strangebloke]

Githyanki are great for such a concept. Really, I think just having a greatsword and medium armor while being a spellcaster is enough to evoke the feel.

So for something simple, how about a Githyanki Divine Soul sorcerer? You have a pretty all-rounder kind of stat spread, you use green-flame blade or booming blade, you start out with mage hand and maybe pick up telekinetic at fourth level to turn your starting 15 in CHA into a 16...

You'll have good AC, good damage, and a few extra spells like misty step that a sorcerer really wants. Your CHA lags a bit, but that's not the worst thing.

[Unoriginal]

Related to the suggestions above:

Githyanki Celestial Warlock Pact of the Blade is pretty great, if you want more melee power. Celestial Warlocks get to add their CHA mods to fire and radiant damage, which works well with Green Flame Blading a Greatsword with Eldritch Smite potential.

For the "show off that psionic feel, telekinetic, wave of a hand to send a problem or solution away from his sight" part, the Telekinetic feat is worth taking a look at. Taking it as a Githyanki also strengthen your Mage Hand cantrip.

[RogueJK]

Githyanki Celestial Warlock Pact of the Blade is pretty great, if you want more melee power. Celestial Warlocks get to add their CHA mods to fire and radiant damage, which works well with Green Flame Blading a Greatsword with Eldritch Smite potential.

That could be tough to pull off effectively, due to MADness. You'd need a high CHA for your Warlock spells and abilities, a high STR for the Greatsword, a 14 DEX for Medium Armor, and a decent CON since you'll be in melee and need the HP and Concentration bonus.

With Point Buy, best case scenario would be:
STR 14+2
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 15+1

Doable, but not ideal, especially that 12 CON. Then you're looking at a minimum of 2 and preferably 4 ASIs going towards boosting STR and CHA. (Warlocks only get 5 total, with the 5th coming at Level 19.) Doesn't leave much room for anything else, like Warcaster/Resilient and Telekinetic.

[Arkhios]

Celestial Bladelock maybe?

You'd be kinda like something between paladin and cleric.

[strangebloke]

That could be tough to pull off effectively, due to MADness. You'd need a high CHA for your Warlock spells and abilities, a high STR for the Greatsword, a 14 DEX for Medium Armor, and a decent CON since you'll be in melee and need the HP and Concentration bonus.

With Point Buy, best case scenario would be:
STR 14+2
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 15+1

Doable, but not ideal, especially that 12 CON. Then you're looking at a minimum of 2 and preferably 4 ASIs going towards boosting STR and CHA. (Warlocks only get 5 total, with the 5th coming at Level 19.) Doesn't leave much room for anything else, like Warcaster/Resilient and Telekinetic.

A lot of doors open up when you realize that +1 to a stat means only +5% chances of success.

[Unoriginal]

That could be tough to pull off effectively, due to MADness. You'd need a high CHA for your Warlock spells and abilities, a high STR for the Greatsword, a 14 DEX for Medium Armor, and a decent CON since you'll be in melee and need the HP and Concentration bonus.

With Point Buy, best case scenario would be:
STR 14+2
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 15+1

Doable, but not ideal, especially that 12 CON. Then you're looking at a minimum of 2 and preferably 4 ASIs going towards boosting STR and CHA. (Warlocks only get 5 total, with the 5th coming at Level 19.) Doesn't leave much room for anything else, like Warcaster/Resilient and Telekinetic.

You don't really need that, though.

You could easily replace the DEX 14 by the Heavily Armored feat, for example, which frees up a lot of points. Granted you won't have great AC to start with, but that's more than manageable.

[KyleG]

Something to consider is a Celestial Tomelock. See the Celestial Generalist here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...fective-Builds

It's a good option for a religious-flavored gish, getting you decently hard-hitting CHA-based melee using Shillelagh + Green Flame Blade with extra fire damage from Level 6+, plus a solid ranged option with Eldritch Blast (or Sacred Flame if they're behind cover), along with the usual Warlock spellcasting with the ability to poach some handy spells from the Cleric list, and great utility thanks to 9 cantrips and access to all of the ritual spells in the game through the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation.

One of my current characters is a Celestial Tomelock evangelist for a cult. He's not a Cleric or a "priest", just a lay preacher who has been imbued with power by his deity. It has worked out well, both in and out of combat.

Since you're going with a Githyanki, who already have racial Medium Armor proficiency, you can get away with skipping the Moderately Armored feat that is in the recommended Celestial Generalist build linked above (although that extra +2 AC from shield proficiency will be missed). It would look something like:
Githyanki Celestial Tomelock
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 15+1
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+2
Wear Half Plate armor and wield a quarterstaff.
At Level 4 take the Telekinetic feat for +1 CHA, Bonus Action psychic shove ability, and extra range on your racial Mage Hand. Then take Warcaster at Level 8 for Booming Blade OAs and Advantage on Concentration checks. Then +2 CHA at Level 12 to max out your Charisma.


Another good option would be a Paladin 2 or 6/Aberrant Mind Sorcerer X, as a zealous warrior of the faith who focuses more on spellcasting than a traditional Paladin, but can still swing a weapon on the frontline and smite hard.

A lot of the suggestions involve the all powerful warlock and although im not completely opposed i have had two builds with warlock and i was trying to stay away if possible.

If i lean into the Aberrant Mind idea, A paladin build would need to go to 8 to get enough ASI over the build wouldnt it? Unless I went fighter with its extra ASI at 6. And if the plan isnt to focus on smiting would fighter be a better option?

[Unoriginal]

If i lean into the Aberrant Mind idea, A paladin build would need to go to 8 to get enough ASI over the build wouldnt it? Unless I went fighter with its extra ASI at 6. And if the plan isnt to focus on smiting would fighter be a better option?

Well, in my opinion, pure sorcerers have an hard time to be Gishes, but a lvl 1 Fighter/lvl 1 Aberrant Sorcerer is already a Gish, if you get what I mean.

I would start with Fighter, then go Aberrant Sorcerer at second level. Afterward each level is a question of if you want more sorcerer good stuff or the Fighter's perks. Psi Warrior has good perks for what you want, including at lvl 6 if I'm not mistaken, so that'd be a sound path.

Basically just need to figure out which class you want to level up at the moment of leveling up, depending on the situation you are in in-game.

[RogueJK]

If i lean into the Aberrant Mind idea, A paladin build would need to go to 8 to get enough ASI over the build wouldnt it? Unless I went fighter with its extra ASI at 6. And if the plan isnt to focus on smiting would fighter be a better option?

Depends. A Custom Lineage/Variant Human Paladin 6/Sorcerer X would have the same number of ASIs as a another race Paladin 8/Sorcerer X. (And you may not need all those ASIs anyway, depending on what feats your wanting and what your starting stats are.)

The typical breakpoints for Paladin/Sorcerer multiclasses are 2/X and 6/X. Occasionally it's worth justifying more Paladin levels (7/8/9) in specific situations, like if you really want a certain Level 7 subclass ability, or an extra Level 8 ASI, or 3rd level Paladin spells at 9, but those will be the minority (from a optimization standpoint at least).

A Paladin 2/Sorcerer X Sorcadin is more of a spellcaster, relying on BB/GFB to boost their sole melee attack. A 6/X Sorcadin is more martial-oriented, with Extra Attack, plus the amazing Paladin aura to saving throws.

If Smite doesn't interest you, Fighter/Sorcerer is worth looking into, and the level split would be similar, 1-2/X or 5-6/X. If you're just after Martial Weapons and Heavy Armor, 1 level of Fighter is all it takes, but 2 levels for Action Surge is likely worth it. From there, the next breakpoint would be 5 for Extra Attack, and if you're going to 5 it could be worth going one more to 6 for the additional ASI.

So either way, level split comes down to whether you want your gish to be more martial (6/X with extra attack) or more of a spellcaster (2/X with BB/GFB and more spells).


Another to consider besides Fighter, if you don't want to Smite and don't need Extra Attack, would be a Cleric 1 or 2/Sorcerer X relying on BB/GFB for melee. Depending on subclass, Cleric 1 can get you the armor and weapon proficiencies you're wanting, plus some other subclass abilities that could be handy. And it only requires a 13 WIS, provided you stick to Cleric spells and subclass abilities that don't rely on your WISMOD (like buff/utility spells). Importantly, it doesn't slow down your spell slot advancement like Fighter levels would. You'll be a level behind in Sorcerer spells known, but on track for spell slots, and have access to some additional 1st level Cleric buff spells too. Cleric 2 is a bit of a stretch, unless there's a Channel Divinity option that you're really wanting, like Tempest Cleric's ability to maximize your Sorcerer Thunder/Lightning blasting spells.

[KyleG]

Im not picturing him as wading into battle but being able to ward of minions/mooks. Infact now thinking on it even that melee defence id like to be magical in nature for the most part. And he certainly isn't heavily armoured so shouldn't be getting too close to the action. So perhaps I to purist if I stick with githyanki and its racial proficiencies.

[Kane0]

Githyanki abberrant or clockwork sorc with the telekinetic and/or telepathic feats sounds fine to me. Use sword burst when in melee if you dont want to actually swing a sword yourself.