OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread

[Liquor Box]

Well that's a stretch.

Didn't you argue that the Order were partly responsible for Soon's gate's destruction because they'd contributed to Miko's downfall? And now you think Serini writing down all the secrets in a diary is a stretch???

If the paladins and the order werent here, Serini wouldn't had atacked them.
If shapphire guard wouldn't had massacre Redcloaks village, he would had never met Xykon, and the later would have died long ago.
If Roy didn't want to do some sidequest, V wouldn't had killed a teenager dragon, and therefore he/she wouldn't had commited genocide later.
What a way to avoid responsabilities...

The difference between those points (with the possible exception of the paladins being at the north pole) and what Serini did, is that it was perfectly foreseeable that keeping a diary with top secret information might lead to it falling into the wrong hands. It would not have been at all forseeable that Roy going to recover some starmetal would lead to V committing familicide.

This was the world's biggest secrets, and Serini put it in a diary. To go back your nuclear weapon analogy, it would be like someone writing the access codes to launch the nukes in their diary and then wandering around alone with the diary in their pocket (anyone with access who did this would go to jail). A ten year old knows that you have to be careful about putting their secrets in their diary. It was predicable that by writing about the gates in her diary a villain would get the information and go after the gates, and that was a partial cause of the destruction of the gates so far.

[Peelee]

True, it doesn't prove they can beat Xykon. But it does prove that her initial estimate of them was too low (presumably she thought she might win or she wouldn't have spring this ambush), so it might make her re-evaluate whether they might be powerful enough. Especially if she previously didn't know much about them.



Where do you get that they want to help her or they want her help? All we know is that they wanted to talk to her, a rational step for anyone who may be able to get more information from another party.

But even if they did want to work with her, they may not now.

If they still want to work with her, I don't see how defeating her will make her receptiveness work (as noted above, given her comment to the paladins, showing their power might make her more receptive). The possibility of a cordial introduction is gone, they are fighting, so its hard to see how winning that fight would detract from any of their goals.

A.) If I say "you can't buy a Ferrari, you don't even have five dollars!" and you pull a twenty out of your wallet, I'm still probably not going to re-evaluate whether or not you can buy a Ferrari. Especially if you have been denied several times already, and burned down the last dealership specifically because you were about to get another rejection.

2.) OK, let's say the Order only wants to talk to her. Your attempted role reversal still fails immediately because that is an incredibly poor method to extract information you want to learn.

[a_flemish_guy]

Didn't you argue that the Order were partly responsible for Soon's gate's destruction because they'd contributed to Miko's downfall? And now you think Serini writing down all the secrets in a diary is a stretch???



The difference between those points (with the possible exception of the paladins being at the north pole) and what Serini did, is that it was perfectly foreseeable that keeping a diary with top secret information might lead to it falling into the wrong hands. It would not have been at all forseeable that Roy going to recover some starmetal would lead to V committing familicide.

This was the world's biggest secrets, and Serini put it in a diary. To go back your nuclear weapon analogy, it would be like someone writing the access codes to launch the nukes in their diary and then wandering around alone with the diary in their pocket (anyone with access who did this would go to jail). A ten year old knows that you have to be careful about putting their secrets in their diary. It was predicable that by writing about the gates in her diary a villain would get the information and go after the gates, and that was a partial cause of the destruction of the gates so far.

serini also isn't just joe rando, she's an epic level rogue, her diary was safer on her then it was in any vault
shouldn't she have written down the coordinates? maybe, but I think it was done at the time when they where adventuring, there's no entry in there going: if anyone reading this wants to find the gates these are the coordinates of each of them
but rather, entry: date, coordinates, dear diary, today we sealed the rift at windy canyon in the western dessert, it was great adventure,blablabla...

[Bookwyrm13]

Hehehe. Franklin Piercer.

I know OotS is probably the last comic where this is a valid nitpick, but naming a monster {scrubbed} does bend my brain a bit.

Also, I don't know what's funnier to me, Serini's completely childish insults towards V, or the fact that V actually seems to be genuinely offended by them.

Simultaneously anticipating and dreading all the hay that the "Serini is a moron" contingent will make with it though

EDIT: Oh god it's already started

[Fyraltari]

Hehehe. Franklin Piercer.

I know OotS is probably the last comic where this is a valid nitpick, but naming a monster {scrubbed} does bend my brain a bit.

If it helps, you can tell yourself that in-universe it isn't a reference. It just coincidentally happened to match something from real-life.

[Linworm]

I'm genuinely starting to wonder if Serini suffers from some form of senile dementia.

[Bookwyrm13]

So what makes piercers a kinda dumb monster is they have no attack when they aren't falling from a ceiling. And they are really really slow. So they get one attack and get butchered for XP usually. But it is also a fairly reasonable tactic to just ignore them, especially in versions of D&D where they aren't worth any xp to the current party.

I love the idea that someone decided "I'm going to design a monster that can disguise itself as a stalactite" and then just declined to add anything that would make it more dangerous than if the DM just had a real stalactite fall on a player.

[a_flemish_guy]

I love the idea that someone decided "I'm going to design a monster that can disguise itself as a stalactite" and then just declined to add anything that would make it more dangerous than if the DM just had a real stalactite fall on a player.

what's even funnier is that they also have an unrelated monster which disguises themselves as stalagmites

[Bookwyrm13]

what's even funnier is that they also have an unrelated monster which disguises themselves as stalagmites

Unrelated???

It's things like this that are why I love D&D

I presume it's called the pierger and that's how you remember which one is which...

[a_flemish_guy]

Unrelated???

It's things like this that are why I love D&D

I presume it's called the pierger and that's how you remember which one is which...

no no, that would make sense, no, it's called a roper (presumably because it has tentacles with which it can grab you)

[Peelee]

Unrelated???

It's things like this that are why I love D&D

I presume it's called the pierger and that's how you remember which one is which...

Close. https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/roper

[a_flemish_guy]

the absolutely funny part is that instead of saying that mimics could disguise themselves as any part of the room they have 3 distinct monsters who disguised themselves as the ceiling (lurker), the floor (trapper) and the walls (stun jelly)

[JonahFalcon]

I'm genuinely starting to wonder if Serini suffers from some form of senile dementia.

Question for you:

How long has the fight between her and the Order being going on for?

[Psyren]

I must have missed that. I saw V saying she should have picked up the call, and then effectively "no, u", but I certainly did not see a verbal smackdown of any sort, eloquent or otherwise.

Precisely - it was the most eloquent "no u" I've seen in any webcomic thus far

So...Wall of Force persists but Forcecage does not?

Rules as written, yes. As intended, Forcecage should probably resist it too (at least the solid box configuration which is explicitly made of walls of force), but absent a specific reference it was up to the Giant to make a ruling. Obviously, his ruling back then was pretty contentious on the forums, but he wasn't technically wrong by RAW.

Piercers are INT 1 mollusks, making them too stupid to be trained, so Franklin must be awakened. Toormuck must have a whole army of awakened animals.

Int 1 can learn three tricks actually; "Fall when I say 'Franklin'" is simple enough to be one.

[danielxcutter]

Logic is really a tool, something we use to achieve a result; it doesn't define our goals or our values or our passions, to say nothing of our starting premises or assumptions. (Aside, one look around the internet should readily confirm how many people who define themselves as logical and rational just really aren't aware of their own biases or the assumptions they make in their premises.)

Serini's goal is to protect the gate. A group of people who say they want to help but have a history of destroying gates show up. It is rational to conclude that achieving the goal of protecting the gate requires removing them from the area.

Here's the odd thing: she says they had four chances. Four, not three. The Order and Guard cannot be held responsible for Lirian's Gate at all for anyone who has anything remotely approaching accurate information. Dorukan's, Soon's, Girard's maybe. But not Lirian's. I'm not sure if most of the Order was born back then.

It may be the wrong conclusion, but it was arrived at through a fairly sound reasoning process with the information available.

I'm just not sure what revealing this process to have actually been irrational would improve.

I think she's got a point or two(Xykon is indeed scary OP, plus the phylactery is a factor). I just don't think she's right.

Also for me, her decisions being at least partly based on her biases, trauma, and emotional baggage makes her more... human would be the right term. I mean, Kraagor got unmade sealing this Gate, her team almost killed each other if she hadn't had them all swear an oath never to see each other again, no matter what soon after that, and Xykon blackfired half her body and left her for dead and stole her diary with the coordinates. I'm not inclined to think those didn't influence her decisions at all.

I mean, you guys can't seriously think her only flaw is not knowing about the Godsmoot stuff or the Order's actual plans, right? I thought giving your characters flaws and having them being relevant was Storytelling 101.

Question for you:

How long has the fight between her and the Order being going on for?

Not the guy you were responding to, but it's only been like, less than a minute I think. Since a round is six seconds.

Also for the record, I don't agree with her decisions even accounting for her lack of crucial knowledge, but senile dementia is probably a bit much.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[elros]

I am enjoying this update and overall like Serini, but I admit that she is a "spanner in the works" right now.
That said, I am curious what other allies and tricks Serini has planned. It seems that Haley is the only one who is able to do anything against her, so I wonder when the rest of the OOTS is going go do.

[danielxcutter]

If they're up, awake, and outside the AMF, there's a bunch of ways for them to hinder or hold Serini. That's why she brought Sunny in the first place, and turning on the AMF would turn off the Baleful Polymorph. Unless Sunny turns upside down again they can't take out the entire Order at once like they did earlier, so that's at least a round or two more time for retaliating.

[Fyraltari]

what's even funnier is that they also have an unrelated monster which disguises themselves as stalagmites

Wait, if you want a monster to disguise themselves as a stalagmite, why wouldn't you use a mimic?

[Lemarc]

I love the idea that someone decided "I'm going to design a monster that can disguise itself as a stalactite" and then just declined to add anything that would make it more dangerous than if the DM just had a real stalactite fall on a player.

If they just had a stalactite arbitrarily fall on you it would feel very much like "rocks fall, everyone dies". Having it be a predatory animal gives it the barest ghost of an excuse. Which is important, because although they're funny, they are no joke when they land on you.

[JonahFalcon]

Wait, if you want a monster to disguise themselves as a stalagmite, why wouldn't you use a mimic?

Because there's a mimic sealing the cave and Serini isn't Friend of All Mimics?

[danielxcutter]

Wait, if you want a monster to disguise themselves as a stalagmite, why wouldn't you use a mimic?

That is the joke, though perhaps mimics couldn't do that in earlier editions?

[Lemarc]

That is the joke, though perhaps mimics couldn't do that in earlier editions?

Probably just down to the fact that a mimic will wipe a first-level party whereas a piercer is a glorified falling rock.

[danielxcutter]

Probably just down to the fact that a mimic will wipe a first-level party whereas a piercer is a glorified falling rock.

I was under the impression throwing a monster that'd wipe out a party was entirely in the spirit of AD&D.

[Peelee]

Wait, if you want a monster to disguise themselves as a stalagmite, why wouldn't you use a mimic?

Ropers are much beefier than mimics.

Probably just down to the fact that a mimic will wipe a first-level party whereas a piercer is a glorified falling rock.

Stalagmite. The ground ones. Stalactites are the ceiling ones.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, wouldn't a roper wipe out a first-level party too?

also if Franklin goes outside does that make him a snowpiercer

[Lemarc]

I was under the impression throwing a monster that'd wipe out a party was entirely in the spirit of AD&D.

I don't know about back in the day, but in my gaming circles it's always been considered polite to have some kind of warning sign before the whole party gets eaten. The worst of these gotcha monsters, the trapper, you don't meet until you're about eight levels down in the dungeon and have presumably achieved an appropriate level of paranoia. Piercers are more of a pour encourager les autres deal.

Ropers are much beefier than mimics.

Stalagmite. The ground ones. Stalactites are the ceiling ones.

Ah right. I forgot about ropers, I don't think I've ever met one.

[Fyraltari]

also if Franklin goes outside does that make him a snowpiercer

I would like to hop aboard this train.

[Psyren]

I don't know about back in the day, but in my gaming circles it's always been considered polite to have some kind of warning sign before the whole party gets eaten. The worst of these gotcha monsters, the trapper, you don't meet until you're about eight levels down in the dungeon and have presumably achieved an appropriate level of paranoia. Piercers are more of a pour encourager les autres deal.

Assuming "back in the day" means Gygaxian, the game had very different assumptions back then. Because many aspects of your character were completely randomized, bad stat arrays were common and death was expected. You essentially had a whole lot of people adventuring who had no business adventuring. Getting attached to your character wasn't as prevalent as it is now, and the expectation was to have several backups ready to go for when your current one carked it.

[Bookwyrm13]

I think she's got a point or two(Xykon is indeed scary OP, plus the phylactery is a factor). I just don't think she's right.

Also for me, her decisions being at least partly based on her biases, trauma, and emotional baggage makes her more... human would be the right term. I mean, Kraagor got unmade sealing this Gate, her team almost killed each other if she hadn't had them all swear an oath never to see each other again, no matter what soon after that, and Xykon blackfired half her body and left her for dead and stole her diary with the coordinates. I'm not inclined to think those didn't influence her decisions at all.

I mean, you guys can't seriously think her only flaw is not knowing about the Godsmoot stuff or the Order's actual plans, right? I thought giving your characters flaws and having them being relevant was Storytelling 101.

I can't speak for everyone in the pro-Serini camp (well, not pro-Serini per se, but you know. The camp opposite yours) but I don't believe I have never once expressed the idea that she's being perfectly unbiased and logical and that her perspective wasn't informed by her trauma and baggage. If I have, I apologize, because I did not properly express my point if so. I firmly believe that--I don't think she would be nearly as jaded or cynical as she is if that weren't the case (given what little we've seen of her pre-Kraagor and pre-trollification).

But one's perspective being informed by those things doesn't make them wrong or bad or deserving of a callout by the narrative. I don't think she arrived at her conclusions through purely rational thought (then again, I don't believe any being has ever arrived at a conclusion through purely rational thought.) But I still think her perspective is still defensible from her point of view, and I think a lot of the arguments people have made attempting to refute that have been unfair or flawed in themselves.