OOTS #1247 - The Discussion Thread

[internisus]

Does the fact that V was targeted with a mind-effecting beam mean that Serini's knowledge of the Order does not extend to the day-to-day level, or did V just get lucky?

I have my doubts that V's assessment is accurate. I think that the beam had some effect that wasn't immediately apparent.

[zinycor]

I’d be glad to see that if she wasn’t making the protagonists look entirely incompetent in comparison. About the only thing the Order’s legitimately achieved through skill here is getting Sunny to blink and Haley kicking Serini down to the floor. And she got out of all of that as well.

This is a comical strip. Having the protagonists looking entirely incompetent is totally normal and in-character for them.

[smuchmuch]

So, at this rate, next we should get a darkmantle, a gelatinous cube in a square hole, two dozens variety of mimics and some umber hulks int he walls ? :p

Seriously tho, while i don't mind that Serini, the epic level rogue, easily evade the order in the dungeon she herself filled with traps and monsters, that make sense to me, this particular page felt a little like filler-y to me. Am i the only one ?
(Yeah V being pendat is cute and the joke at overanlalysis was funny but still not enough to make the page for me). I just kinda hope the rest of the chasse, if it keeps going on, is handled with either a montage page or mostly offscreen with occasional close in while we get to see something else.

[KorvinStarmast]

I keep forgetting that V's character development didn't include learning to be concise.

V is for Verbose

So Serini is friends with lots of monsters, I get it. But doesn't it seem most of them are pretty old D&D canon?

Ain't it great?

Belkar's the one to suggest NOT to kill. Yep. Nothing wrong there.

Is this along the lines of "Belkar's acting like a Ranger, we're doomed!"

The creature that fell on V is likely a Lurker Above, one of several Gygaxian creations that depended on adventurers rushing ahead without checking the ceiling (like V did.)

Ain't it great?

Does the fact that V was targeted with a mind-effecting beam mean that Serini's knowledge of the Order does not extend to the day-to-day level, or did V just get lucky?

V was prepared for a different threat (Xykon) - this threat is a lesser included case. Sometimes, "luck" means that preparation meets situation.

wait, you can have a wand of dimdoor? Sweet! I want one!

My bard does also (5e). She's been swallowed by a purple worm, and a kraken. (Yes, she had to burn a spell slot to DD out of each one of those).

Belkar: back to being comic relief. Good!

Thank you Giant!

[danielxcutter]

This is a comical strip. Having the protagonists looking entirely incompetent is totally normal and in-character for them.

Yes, but up until the last book they actually were fairly competent. This one rolled them right back to Blood Runs In the Family, if not earlier.

[Ionathus]

This one's fantastic. Love both Belkar's quips and V's indignant pedantry. "You circumvented my bubble!" is so delightful.

I’d be glad to see that if she wasn’t making the protagonists look entirely incompetent in comparison. About the only thing the Order’s legitimately achieved through skill here is getting Sunny to blink and Haley kicking Serini down to the floor. And she got out of all of that as well.

Really, you think this fight has made the Order look incompetent? They had the deck stacked against them in a nasty ambush with cheesed tactics, and they turned it completely around and even sent the ambusher herself into full retreat. That feels pretty darn competent to me.

I am really annoyed by V's behavior at this juncture. Just running/flying ahead like that, without even checking their surroundings. Whatever happened to basic adventurer paranoia, though? It's like these people have never had a ceiling come to life and try to smother them before!

If that's an intentional callback, it's a great one

All jokes aside, I'm loving this group dynamic. We've already seen Haley & V and also Haley & Belkar, but all three of them together (plus some character growth) makes for a fun skillset and decision-making mentality.

[zinycor]

So, at this rate, next we should get a darkmantle, a gelatinous cube in square hole, two dozens variety of mimics and some umber hulks int he walls ? :p
Seriously tho, while i dodn't mind that Serini, the epic level rogue, easily evade the order in the dungeon she herself filled with trps and monsters, that make sense, this particular page felt a little filler. Kinda hope the rest of the chasse, if it keeps going on, is handled with either a montage page or mostly offscreen with occasional close in while we get to see something else.

I believe this is a case of one getting spoiled from reading one page at a time over the course of weeks. Once we are reading it on the bulk, as part of a story it will flow more naturally.

[Rogan]

Does the fact that V was targeted with a mind-effecting beam mean that Serini's knowledge of the Order does not extend to the day-to-day level, or did V just get lucky?

V wasn't targeted with a mind effecting beam. Haley moved her out of the way of one beam, but this made another beam hit V instead.

I also want to say, I agree with everybody who liked Vs pedantic response to the burst the bubble pun and Belkars last comment.

[zinycor]

Yes, but up until the last book they actually were fairly competent. This one rolled them right back to Blood Runs In the Family, if not earlier.

Blood in the family had Elan and Durkon failing to recognize that Elan's father and Mallack were evil , Roy and Belkar getting defeated and then taken prisoner.

The previous arc had the whole party (Minus Belkar) actively helping vampire Durkon.

[danielxcutter]

Blood in the family had Elan and Durkon failing to recognize that Elan's father and Mallack were evil , Roy and Belkar getting defeated and then taken prisoner.

The previous arc had the whole party (Minus Belkar) actively helping vampire Durkon.

Yes, but the Dining Room fight actually feels legit; sure they blew their saves but it feels like they lost that one fair and square.

This fight feels like those preschool fights where the other guy makes up new rules on the spot.

[hroþila]

The Order just repelled an ambush by an Epic rogue and a beholder in their home turf, I honestly don't see how this qualifies as incompetence.

[zinycor]

Yes, but the Dining Room fight actually feels legit; sure they blew their saves but it feels like they lost that one fair and square.

This fight feels like those preschool fights where the other guy makes up new rules on the spot.

Since we are arguing feeling I'll just say it doesn't feel that way to me

[danielxcutter]

I don’t really see how the Order is going to accomplish anything with three separate epic factions on their ass, which is why I’m eager to see this threat at least overcome sooner rather than later.

[zinycor]

I don’t really see how the Order is going to accomplish anything with three separate epic factions on their ass, which is why I’m eager to see this threat at least overcome sooner rather than later.

It's the beginning of the arc, that feeling is purposefully there

[elecampane]

WAs that a shot from the giant to the forums there at the top? Love it!

I, for one, very much appreciate the lampshading that how dispel rules were a little bent (still shouldn't have dispelled multiple spells from a single person for an area dispell, though :p ). It makes easier for me to not get hung up on the inconsistency and move on.

(Where's Blackwing?)

Still outside on his perch among the snow, he never joined them in the cave. If at least one character maintained the telepathic bond after the dispel, they can still communicate with him.

I have my doubts that V's assessment is accurate. I think that the beam had some effect that wasn't immediately apparent.

I mean, we pretty much know what are the effects of each and every one of Sunny's eyes (the effects are similar to the standard beholder, but they lack the finger of death and the inflict wounds eyes). None of the rays have delayed effects; 4 out of 8 rays are indeed mind-affecting (charm monster/person, sleep, fear), other 4 we would notice immediately (disintegrate, flesh to stone, slow, telekinesis)

[Joe the Rat]

ROM NOM NOM

I need to remember that next time I get to drop something on the players.

[Cygnia]

Somebody specc'ed into Beast Heart Adept, I see...

[Ionathus]

Yes, but the Dining Room fight actually feels legit; sure they blew their saves but it feels like they lost that one fair and square.

This fight feels like those preschool fights where the other guy makes up new rules on the spot.

Your mileage may vary. I, for one, feel like they're showing more competence here than in the second half of the Dining Room fight. They had a strong start with the chaos giraffes, but as soon as the vampires used Dispel Magic (a pretty predictable tactic) they were dead in the water. I don't necessarily feel they were incompetent in that fight, but I don't think they displayed any worse decision-making here. And in fact, I feel they've gotten demonstratably better at thinking on their feet and improvising.

[Windscion]

I keep forgetting that V's character development didn't include learning to be concise.

V's character development doesn't seem to have included "listen to Haley." Which is odd, because Haley is V's closest confidante. I guess on matters of tactics V only listens to "Roy Big Hero Guy."

[danielxcutter]

Your mileage may vary. I, for one, feel like they're showing more competence here than in the second half of the Dining Room fight. They had a strong start with the chaos giraffes, but as soon as the vampires used Dispel Magic (a pretty predictable tactic) they were dead in the water. I don't necessarily feel they were incompetent in that fight, but I don't think they displayed any worse decision-making here. And in fact, I feel they've gotten demonstratably better at thinking on their feet and improvising.

By competent I mean “able to do crap”. They… haven’t actually done much because Serini keeps pulling out contingencies out her ass. Ten quatloos says that another of her monsters is trying to eat the rest of the Order right now.

[Ionathus]

A Serini who's constantly pulling contingencies out of her ass is a Serini who isn't neutralizing/knocking out members of the Order. She's retreating - she's on the back foot.

Repelling an ambush does count as "doing crap," even if it's not a flashy, conclusive victory.

[InvisibleBison]

By competent I mean “able to do crap”. They… haven’t actually done much because Serini keeps pulling out contingencies out her ass. Ten quatloos says that another of her monsters is trying to eat the rest of the Order right now.

It seems to me that the Order is doing quite a bit - they've overcome everything that Serini has thrown at them and forced her to flee.

[SlashDash]

To me this seems like this whole things is about to be over any second now.
It's probably not a coincidence that Roy, Durkon and Minrah - aka the three lawful characters were left behind alongside Elan the childish member of the party who is least likely considering that sometimes things need to be done the hard way.

Haley, Belkar and V are far closer to Serini's mentality that they might actually start having a dialogue soon.

Seriously tho, while i don't mind that Serini, the epic level rogue, easily evade the order in the dungeon she herself filled with traps and monsters, that make sense to me, this particular page felt a little like filler-y to me. Am i the only one ?

It's not a filler, it's a setup.
Last we saw them, the party split up and we saw what happened back with Sunny, now we are shifting to the other half of the party, so you need an establishing strip at the very least.

[TuringTest]

Yes, but the Dining Room fight actually feels legit; sure they blew their saves but it feels like they lost that one fair and square.

This fight feels like those preschool fights where the other guy makes up new rules on the spot.

They were fighting newly-born vampires then. Even if one of them was his goddess' High Priest, it was matched in power level.

Here they're fighting an epic rogue several levels above theirs, in her own dungeon, after giving her more than enough warning to prepare an ambush. That they managed to overcome the ambush at all is alreasy a success in itself.

[Robots]

Update. Aw yeah.

V getting trapped in the jaws of that Monster I Cannot Identify Because I Don't Play A Lot Of DnD reminds me of like, when people get rolled up into carpets.

Does that make sense? I doubt it.

[Psyren]

To be fair you were already tired of that approximately minus eleventy minutes after it started.

Serini needs to be competent.

She's indeed great at stalling without accomplishing anything of substance.

I do find it interesting that she only popped 10-20ft. away from the bubble instead of taking the opportunity to blink 400ft. away. Does she not know her own dungeon that well, or is she luring them to something specific?

Does the fact that V was targeted with a mind-effecting beam mean that Serini's knowledge of the Order does not extend to the day-to-day level, or did V just get lucky?

It means two things
- Serini's knowledge is pretty good, but not 100%, and anyway, Sunny decided which ray to use without her guidance.
- The Giant wanted to poke at the over-analyzing ways of this forum, just a little bit

For my part, I just love this comic, in particular V's and Belkar's hilarious lines, and the super-cute little lurker!

Alternatively, and hear me out on this one, Sunny is not Serini.

I have my doubts that V's assessment is accurate. I think that the beam had some effect that wasn't immediately apparent.

We know what all 8 of them do, so no.

[Hurkyl]

Is Belkar the most experienced dungeon crawler of the group?

Anyways, I think the past couple of strip is setting us up for a rogue on rogue game of cat and mouse. Haley seems to have the best grasp by far about what they may be dealing with, and circumstances seem to be setting her up to take the lead in organizing the chase party to go after their foe.

[Peelee]

I’d be glad to see that if she wasn’t making the protagonists look entirely incompetent in comparison.

Shes not. She's an epic level rogue with a home field advantage, fighting against people who were wholly unprepared for such a fight (in no small part due to her never answering their calls, and thus not confirming whether she was even alive, much less actively disinterested in their help).

Thst doesn't make them look incompetent. That's completely understandable, based on the setup. If someone sucker pinches you, that doesnt mean you're a bad fighter. That means you were caught unprepared.

[danielxcutter]

She's indeed great at stalling without accomplishing anything of substance.

She’s also doing an excellent job at ensuring that the Order won’t be able to stop Xykon.

[Psyren]

Is Belkar the most experienced dungeon crawler of the group?

I'd honestly put Haley above him but he's up there.

She’s also doing an excellent job at ensuring that the Order won’t be able to stop Xykon.

I'll be fair here, that "ambush Xykon at the portal trap by ourselves with no help from the architect of the dungeon" plan had a pretty high chance of ending with Order Pizza. Getting a surprise round was better than a straight-up fight, but not by much.