Fun Gestalt Builds for 3,5

[Jervis]

I'm looking to theorycraft some fun builds for a specific form a Gestalt game. This ruleset is meant to force everyone to use some of the weirder content in the system. One side has to primarily progress one of the following, ToB Initiator levels, Incarnum Meldshaping, Vestige Binding, Turenaming, or Shadow Magic. That is to say the majority of levels have to progress that and need to reach the 9th level spell equivalent without help from the other side. You can, say, use cleric on one side and crusader on the other for example until switching the crusader half to RKV and mostly use something else on the cleric side. You can't progress anything twice in a level so you can't gain two cleric levels by using cleric on one side and RKV on the other.

What are some fun weird builds you can do in this ruleset? I'd like to hear some ideas people get from reading this. Allowed content is all 1st party + dragon mag.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Warlock // Shadowcaster. The problem with Shadowcasters is that they have no sustain; lots of cool powers, but so few uses per day that they'll always struggle in combat. The main problem with Warlocks is a lack of versatility, but the only daily limits they have are HP (and maybe magic item charges).

Use your Warlock invocations for blasting, flight, all the things that you want to be able to do all day. Pick Shadowcaster mysteries to fill in the gaps, with cool utility/social/just niche powers that you could never justify spending an invocation on.

Maybe throw in Nosomatic Chirurgeon 1-4, which will progress either side, but also by RAW give you Adept casting (since neither Shadowcasters nor Warlocks are technically spellcasters). Ask your DM about that one first, though. Glimmerskin Halflings (from Dragon Magic, descendants of Gold Dragons) get heal as a permanent class skill, and so are worth considering if you go this route.


One class that goes well with most gestalts is Dragon Shaman, as its auras are almost completely passive, benefiting your party without costing you any action economy (maybe invest a feat into Double Draconic Aura at 12th level, but maybe not). The Con focus makes it an especially good pairing with Totemist or Incarnate from Magic of Incarnum. Ask your DM if you can count as (Dragonblood) subtype like Dragonfire Adepts do, because that gives you access to some exclusive (and excellent) Totemist soulmelds.

[lylsyly]

One I personally played was Unarmed Swordsage 20 /// Totemist 20. Very MAD but the way we roll attributes that's rarely a problem. Was fun to play too!

[Quertus]

Well, I don't know if it would be fun for anyone else but me to play, and I don't know if it works with your personal rules for gestalt, but…

If the GM would work with me to write up a Savage Species style progression, and it was solid / actually balanced to the table, and it only takes up one side of the gestalt?

Merilith on one side. On the other? Well, the limit on mass teleported points to totemist being a good choice. But I'd probably go with primarily Truenamer, with a level of Crusader thrown in for good measure.

Not great on passives (beyond what Merilith gives you), but lots of options on active abilities, from melee to (minor) healing to teleportation to (iirc, AFB) Animate Dead to Gate as a capstone (right? AFB, haven't played a Truenamer).

Sounds to me like it could be fun.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I've always been partial to using one side for manifesting (psion, namely), since there are lots of rules that allow psionics to support the other mechanics you mentioned, then using the other side primarily for dips, with factotum 3 (with Able Learner for all skills as class skills forever), totemist 2, swordsage 2+, and others filling up the other side. Use feats and powers to support the other side of the gestalt, including action economy enhancers (Linked Power + synchronicity is a favorite of mine) and psionic open chakra allows for some really high level chakra binding, since the power scales freely with augmentation (and thus, manifester level), and this grants access to chakra binds well before anyone else, even non-multiclassing incarnum users. Just boost your ML really high and make use of cost reduction strategies (of which there are many).

For instance...

Shaper 5/3.5 constructor 9 (with early entry)/anarchic initiate 5/shaper 1
...on one side, with...
Factotum 3/LA +1 race or template (such as dark creature human or changeling)/totemist 2/unarmed swordsage 2/whirling frenzy lion spirit totem barbarian 1/martial chaos monk 2/crusader 2/warblade 2/swordsage 3+/etc
...on the other...

...is really, really good. It can do virtually anything with the right loadout of feats, powers, maneuvers, soulmelds, and items. Just think about getting the phase cloak soulmeld bound to your shoulders chakra at level 7 and how much that would affect your ability to function both in and out of a fight. It's a fantastic defensive and maneuverability item, allowing you to bypass obstacles and AoOs whenever you move more than 5'. It also helps you to scout, since you can simply phase through walls and doors like they're not even there.

And you can use the non-manifesting side of the gestalt to fill in the ML holes in the other side. For instance, when you'd lose a ML to constructor, take a level of psion on the other side to keep your ML up.

[Gnaeus]

Boring, but warblade is one of the classic wizard gestalts. Providing pretty much everything wizard lacks and fixing the low level issues, so from a power perspective, optimized wizard with PRCs//Warblade 20 is as good as it gets.

At the other end, Truenamer//Marshal is better than the sum of its parts. Motivate Intelligence helps truespeak numbers, and with knowledge devotion is a good fighter type. But since marshal is really only a dip, you could throw in anything you want on that side after about 2-3 levels. I’d consider Samurai, because truenamer and marshal would both help intimidate lockdown, or Rogue for skill mastery truespeach and lots of skills for truenamer to buff.

If LA or monstrous progression is allowed on one side, that would be even better. If not, any of the racial paragon classes that boost Cha or Int would be ok. So maybe something like marshal 1-3/wizard 1/half elf paragon 3/human paragon 3/elf paragon 3. This is also extremely good at maxing out any odd, potentially broken skill, like iajutsu focus, since you get adaptive learning and truenamer is good at buffing skill numbers.

[pabelfly]

I'd go Truenamer/Crusader for a melee gish character. Truenamer gives you swift-action casting (at 9th level) to augment your physical prowess, since Crusader is lacking in swift action attacks, and Crusader gives you the martial stuff you want. Bonus points if you pick up Aura of Perfect Order to be able to take 11 on all your Truespeak checks.

[Wildstag]

Incarnum on one side, anything else on the other side. Incarnum is fun in general, but hard to justify outside of Gestalt.

[Maat Mons]

Warblade always tempts me in gestalt. Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Mind Over Body, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Focus, and Iron Heart Endurance are nice-to-haves on most characters.

For someone looking to subvert the intent of the restrictions, Tome of Battle classes are nice in that you could devote 6 levels of that side of your build to something else while still getting 9th-level maneuvers by 20th level.

A build which springs to mind is Paladin 4 / Warblade 14 / ??? 2 // Cloistered Cleric 5 / Divine Oracle 10 / Contemplative 5.

Paladin gets you Divine Grave (which can be converted to Wis with the Serenity feat, immunity to Compulsions (via Paladin of Freedom Variant), immunity to Death effects (via Aura of Sanctity ACF), Power Attack as a bonus feat (via holy Warrior ACF), and Darkvision and Low-Light Vision (via Angel's Sight ACF). Cleric Gets you Turn Undead, plus the Pride domain and one other. Contemplative gets you immunity to Poison and Disease. And Divine Oracle gives numerous goodies.

[Jervis]

I've always been partial to using one side for manifesting (psion, namely), since there are lots of rules that allow psionics to support the other mechanics you mentioned, then using the other side primarily for dips, with factotum 3 (with Able Learner for all skills as class skills forever), totemist 2, swordsage 2+, and others filling up the other side. Use feats and powers to support the other side of the gestalt, including action economy enhancers (Linked Power + synchronicity is a favorite of mine) and psionic open chakra allows for some really high level chakra binding, since the power scales freely with augmentation (and thus, manifester level), and this grants access to chakra binds well before anyone else, even non-multiclassing incarnum users. Just boost your ML really high and make use of cost reduction strategies (of which there are many).

For instance...

Shaper 5/3.5 constructor 9 (with early entry)/anarchic initiate 5/shaper 1
...on one side, with...
Factotum 3/LA +1 race or template (such as dark creature human or changeling)/totemist 2/unarmed swordsage 2/whirling frenzy lion spirit totem barbarian 1/martial chaos monk 2/crusader 2/warblade 2/swordsage 3+/etc
...on the other...

...is really, really good. It can do virtually anything with the right loadout of feats, powers, maneuvers, soulmelds, and items. Just think about getting the phase cloak soulmeld bound to your shoulders chakra at level 7 and how much that would affect your ability to function both in and out of a fight. It's a fantastic defensive and maneuverability item, allowing you to bypass obstacles and AoOs whenever you move more than 5'. It also helps you to scout, since you can simply phase through walls and doors like they're not even there.

And you can use the non-manifesting side of the gestalt to fill in the ML holes in the other side. For instance, when you'd lose a ML to constructor, take a level of psion on the other side to keep your ML up.

I actually didn’t know constructor got a update. Is there a way to buff astral constructs with self powers like Expansion? I ask because that gives me some interesting ideas.

Warblade always tempts me in gestalt. Moment of Perfect Mind, Sudden Leap, Mind Over Body, Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart Focus, and Iron Heart Endurance are nice-to-haves on most characters.

For someone looking to subvert the intent of the restrictions, Tome of Battle classes are nice in that you could devote 6 levels of that side of your build to something else while still getting 9th-level maneuvers by 20th level.

A build which springs to mind is Paladin 4 / Warblade 14 / ??? 2 // Cloistered Cleric 5 / Divine Oracle 10 / Contemplative 5.

Paladin gets you Divine Grave (which can be converted to Wis with the Serenity feat, immunity to Compulsions (via Paladin of Freedom Variant), immunity to Death effects (via Aura of Sanctity ACF), Power Attack as a bonus feat (via holy Warrior ACF), and Darkvision and Low-Light Vision (via Angel's Sight ACF). Cleric Gets you Turn Undead, plus the Pride domain and one other. Contemplative gets you immunity to Poison and Disease. And Divine Oracle gives numerous goodies.

If possible I’d also grab the OA fortune domain for a 1/day Reroll and the Substitution spell. Substitution is basically 750 GP for 100 extra HP and halved damage till that runs out. Good for durability. You could also go Witch Hunter on the Warblade side for two levels to grab Kami’s Grace for another source of charisma to saves. At that point I’d be tempted to go Crusader instead of Warblade for mettle but that’s debatable as to if it’s worth it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I actually didn’t know constructor got a update. Is there a way to buff astral constructs with self powers like Expansion? I ask because that gives me some interesting ideas.

The soul crystal from the MoI power of the same name would allow an astral construct that holds it to use the power contained within, although I wouldn't blame a DM for disallowing a mindless creature from using it. Them's houserules, though. RAW allows it. I think maybe a power storing weapon could do so, although that depends on the exact definition of "single targeted power." Yes, self-only powers only affect a single creature (that is, you), but it's a bit fuzzy. You'd have to store expansion in the weapon and then whack the astral construct with it.

If you could share alter self, greater metamorphosis, or shapechange (not metamorphosis, since that disallows ectoplasmic creatures, nor polymorph, since it specifies living creature) with your psicrystal to turn it into an astral construct, that could work too, since nothing in either the Boost Construct feat nor the 3.5 constructor PrC require you to create an astral construct with the astral construct power to gain their benefits. You're still creating an astral construct out of your psicrystal, just not ex nihilo.

[Thurbane]

For me, gestalt is a great chance to put two not-so-great classes together, to become a more powerful or versatile class.

I've been pondering Hexblade, and what might work well with it...

Aside from full casters, I think these might be interesting:

Hexblade//Marshal
Hexblade//Dragon Shaman
Hexblade//Binder

[Gnaeus]

For me, gestalt is a great chance to put two not-so-great classes together, to become a more powerful or versatile class.

I've been pondering Hexblade, and what might work well with it...

Aside from full casters, I think these might be interesting:

Hexblade//Marshal
Hexblade//Dragon Shaman
Hexblade//Binder

Marshal and Dragon Shaman don’t fit the brief, but hexblade does gestalt well with binder or Shadowcaster.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Paladin with Battle Blessing would be a good pairing with most of the subsystems, letting you cast as a swift action while leaving your main actions free for everything else. You would have to be a little careful picking your maneuvers (for ToB) or soulmelds (for MoI) so that you won't need to switch stances, reallocate essentia, or use boosts/counters too often in combat, to make sure that your swift action stays free for when you need it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you can somehow coerce shadowcasting into counting as arcane, adding spellthief on one side of the gestalt and the Master Spellthief feat would basically double your CL.

[Jervis]

If you can somehow coerce shadowcasting into counting as arcane, adding spellthief on one side of the gestalt and the Master Spellthief feat would basically double your CL.

If it did I would say Spellthief into Ur-preist into Mystic Theurge on one side with shadow caster on the other. Not sure if there’s a good way to do that though.

[vasilidor]

Rogue into Shadow Dancer on one side, Warlock on the other. It was fun. The eldritch blast stacked with sneak attack and I got a few cool tricks that helped with being a rogue.
For pathfinder I want to try Fey Adept (spheres of Power), Rogue (Canny Scoundrel Archetype from Spheres of Might).
Soul Knife & Psion was fun in 3.5.
In the future, If I do 3.5 again as a Gestalt, a druid barbarian of some sort called angry bear. Turn into a bear, summon some bears, and rage.

[Thurbane]

Marshal and Dragon Shaman don’t fit the brief, but hexblade does gestalt well with binder or Shadowcaster.

Yep, I should have read the OP in full.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

If it did I would say Spellthief into Ur-preist into Mystic Theurge on one side with shadow caster on the other. Not sure if there’s a good way to do that though.

With Shadowcaster on the other side, Spellthief 5 with the Educated or Apprentice feat will do it.

[Maat Mons]

I just noticed the opening post said Ruby Knight Vindicator is okay. So I guess the standard gestalt prohibition against prestige classes that hybridize two base classes isn't being enforced. Any other deviations from standard gestalt? For example, do you allow prestige classes on both sides at the same time? Are you using fractional progressions? Or maybe that variant of fractional progressions where you only get the +2 once per save?

[vasilidor]

If things like mystic theurge are *on* the table, I would do mystic theurge (cleric/wizard) on one side, psion on other, because I could. any way to get triple 9s?

[Jervis]

If things like mystic theurge are *on* the table, I would do mystic theurge (cleric/wizard) on one side, psion on other, because I could. any way to get triple 9s?

Bamboo Spiritfolk Wizard 3, Cleric 3, Mystic Theurge 10, Arcane Hirophant 4. If flaws are allowed Earth Spell can lets you in as early as wiz 1, cler 2. Alternatively there's a elf PrC that gives trackless step at level 1 so that can let you in as well. Fudging the rules a bit lets you just trade 3 pison levels for druid levels to get a animal companion and trackless step and still get 9th level powers by 20th.

I just noticed the opening post said Ruby Knight Vindicator is okay. So I guess the standard gestalt prohibition against prestige classes that hybridize two base classes isn't being enforced. Any other deviations from standard gestalt? For example, do you allow prestige classes on both sides at the same time? Are you using fractional progressions? Or maybe that variant of fractional progressions where you only get the +2 once per save?

For the purposes of this id probably say no two prestige classes at once unless its a prestige class that doesn't progress anything being progressed by another one. So RKV + Gryphon rider in a level would probably be fine but RKV + Divine Oracle on the same level wouldn't. As for BaB that's probably fractional just because otherwise Gestalt is a headache to calculate. Saves are weird too so probably just fractional there too.

[Ramza00]

I actually didn’t know constructor got a update. Is there a way to buff astral constructs with self powers like Expansion? I ask because that gives me some interesting ideas.

It is not 3.5, but Dreamscarred Pathfinder has Shared Power in Ultimate Psionic, a Metapsionic feat and your Psionic Focus allows you to manifest any personal power as a touch power, and if you pay 2 pp more it is instead close range.

[Maat Mons]

Revisiting the "be immune to a bunch of stuff" angle, something that's possible in gestalt is Cleric 4 / Bone Knight 10 / Contemplative 6. You just need the first four levels of the other side to have full base attack bonus and get ride as a class skill at some point.

You could even do Archivist 4 / Bone Knight 10 / Contemplative 6, but then the only option for the first four levels of other side is Paladin, since you need to get Turn Undead without losing any base attack bonus. Unfortunately, Archivist just doesn't synergize with Paladin as well as I'd like, since taking advantage of Divine Grace requires spreading your ability scores out.



Out of curiosity, what counts as "9th-level spell equivalent" for meldshaping? Is it opening the heart chakra? That's the only thing you can't get from the feats, except for the totem chakra, which Incarnates never get and Totemists get at 2nd level, and except for the soul chakra, which Totemists never get.

[Jervis]

Revisiting the "be immune to a bunch of stuff" angle, something that's possible in gestalt is Cleric 4 / Bone Knight 10 / Contemplative 6. You just need the first four levels of the other side to have full base attack bonus and get ride as a class skill at some point.

You could even do Archivist 4 / Bone Knight 10 / Contemplative 6, but then the only option for the first four levels of other side is Paladin, since you need to get Turn Undead without losing any base attack bonus. Unfortunately, Archivist just doesn't synergize with Paladin as well as I'd like, since taking advantage of Divine Grace requires spreading your ability scores out.



Out of curiosity, what counts as "9th-level spell equivalent" for meldshaping? Is it opening the heart chakra? That's the only thing you can't get from the feats, except for the totem chakra, which Incarnates never get and Totemists get at 2nd level, and except for the soul chakra, which Totemists never get.

I think heart chakra is the closest thing to it. But yeah Bone Knight is very fun, it gets most of the undead immunities without actually being undead. And that’s always fantastic.

[mabriss lethe]

Soulknife//Crusader or Warblade works fairly well. Admittedly, the initiator side is doing most of the heavy lifting, but by relying on strikes, that frees up the soulknife's relatively bad action economy and puts it to better use. Combining Psychic strike damage with a maneuver could add up pretty well, and diamond mind maneuvers especially play well with psionic focus. Sure, you still have all the other soulknife issues, but it holds up pretty well.

[Almus Rayne]

This is already a very well answered post, so just to share a little added flavor there is one recommendation that I always make to anyone who plays with the benefit of gestalting rules.

For any player who uses a unique character race with a level adjustment such as a vampire or a werewolf, I recommend gestalting the adjustment. I.E. Vampire has a level adjustment of 8 which means in order for a vampire PC to be level one and exist in a party, the rest of the party would need to be an average level of level 8. However you can help mitigate some of that bite if every PC in the game is also gestalting because even though everyone else might be 8 levels in two different classes, your character could at least be 8 levels in a single class while being 8 levels in vampire.

You can call that homebrew or overpowered if you want to, even though the same thing could be said about gestalting to begin with... but I call it mitigating character restrictions and I think it works out wonderfully.

[vasilidor]

This is already a very well answered post, so just to share a little added flavor there is one recommendation that I always make to anyone who plays with the benefit of gestalting rules.

For any player who uses a unique character race with a level adjustment such as a vampire or a werewolf, I recommend gestalting the adjustment. I.E. Vampire has a level adjustment of 8 which means in order for a vampire PC to be level one and exist in a party, the rest of the party would need to be an average level of level 8. However you can help mitigate some of that bite if every PC in the game is also gestalting because even though everyone else might be 8 levels in two different classes, your character could at least be 8 levels in a single class while being 8 levels in vampire.

You can call that homebrew or overpowered if you want to, even though the same thing could be said about gestalting to begin with... but I call it mitigating character restrictions and I think it works out wonderfully.

I have done this with a character before. level adjustments and monster levels only apply to one side of the gestalt.

[liquidformat]

For me, gestalt is a great chance to put two not-so-great classes together, to become a more powerful or versatile class.

I've been pondering Hexblade, and what might work well with it...

Aside from full casters, I think these might be interesting:

Hexblade//Marshal
Hexblade//Dragon Shaman
Hexblade//Binder

I'm still working on the build but have been thinking something like this: hexblade//Paladin of Tyranny4/Crusader 3/Divine Crusader 1/Warpriest 1/not sure what else/Contemplative 3-7 as a follower of Bel (LE, Greatsword, Domains: Baator, Destruction, Strength, War) seems like a pretty fun gish

For the main idea here I always like going Totemist//Barbarian 2/swordsage 4/FotF 3/weretouched master 5/warshaper 4/swordsage or warblade shifter becomes quite crazy especially if you are using the un-errata'ed version of weretouched master. Taking the extra level of swordsage upfront delays the build but allows you to bump unarmed damage to 1d10 with your first level of FotF and 2d6 with your 3rd which is a great return on three levels, I haven't gotten past level 12 with this thing so not sure about finishing it off but it works quite well as a blender especially with Shifter Savagery and extra rage feats.

For a non shifter version totemist//bear totem city brawler barbarian 3/ wild shape Champion of the Wild Ranger 5/ FotF 2/primeval 10 this is one of my personal favorite builds between city brawler bear totem barb and ranger you have all the prerequisite feats for FotF and primeval except for Power Attack and Self-Sufficient which leaves your build mostly open to taking other useful feats, I normally go full goody goody with VoP and dumping ranger casting for the extra feat works out nicely. Dire Puma and Dire Lion are normally your best bang for your buck though I have had dms in the past let me choose a primeval form based on my hd upon entering primeval in which case hand down go for smilodon.

[Maat Mons]

Elfy Elf
Wizard 5 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Divine Oracle 10
//
Fighter 1 / Duskblade 3 / Warblade 6 / Eternal Blade 10



Creepy Elf
Wizard 5 / Pale Master 10 / ??? 5
//
Duskblade 3 / Warblade 2 / Wizard +1 / Warblade +4 / Eternal Blade 10



Creepy Dude of Indeterminate Race
Cleric 4 / Bone Knight 10 / Contemplative 6
//
Paladin 2 / ??? 4 / Crusader 14