OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

[Thales]

Serini is definitely overestimating Xykon. Yes, he beat her — when he faced her out in the open without her having access to any of her rogue skills. Since then, he got destroyed by a random midlevel fighter, outright lost to one of her former companions while making a serious effort, and the only reason he didn't have his phylactery chucked into the rift was the hand of the author. And right now, with her, are witnesses to or authors of those defeats. Hopefully they can help her reason overcome her fear.

That said, she probably doesn't have such overwhelming fear of Redcloak. Redcloak is powerful and clever, but I don't think he has much in the way of answers to an antimagic ambush like the one Serini sprung on the Order. Is it just that he spends enough time with Xykon that Serini is afraid to move against him either?

[Metastachydium]

Soon just had his turn and so it was now Xykon's turn - which he seems to have used to pickup Redcloak and fly away, without Miko he could have done the exact same thing (although he might not have) - and he did this before Miko broke the gate.

Soon himself admits that he only might have ended Xykon's threat permanently.

Well, Xykon absolutely thought he was beaten and it is more than implied that had it not been for the Gate getting shattered, he could have caught up to the Bony Bastard, which given the shape he was in would have likely been a one-shot kill.

That said, she probably doesn't have such overwhelming fear of Redcloak. Redcloak is powerful and clever, but I don't think he has much in the way of answers to an antimagic ambush like the one Serini sprung on the Order. Is it just that he spends enough time with Xykon that Serini is afraid to move against him either?

For all we know, the Mantle might protect him from the AMF. It's an artifact, after all.

[Hokum]

I'm having a horrible day, but "Fire in the hole! Meaning me. I'm fire." actually made me laugh aloud.

thanks Rich, it is much appreciated.

[Wraithfighter]

An emotional argument like, say, embodying what the Scribble could have been if they hadn't broken up? Because I gotta say, I like that idea.

Aye. Or bringing up that she's actively helping the person that almost killed her and murdered her friends. Or just smacking her in the face with her irrationality.

...Belkar might be key here. He's got a talent for getting under people's skin, after all, and him mocking the hell out of the world-class adventurer who got so terrified of the big bad that she's become a monster in order to help him, with a cutting aside that he's not talking about her troll half?

Just a thought :).

[Peelee]

Arguably, that one wasn't luck. It was something Lirian was not prepared to deal with, but Redcloak knew what he was doing and didn't succeed by accident.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Eh, the Crimson Mantle letting Reddie keep his spellcssting was luck. No way to foresee that and, IIRC, Reddie himself was surprised.

so the better idea is to make him win.

She has had unrestricted and unfettered opportunity to do that. She has not, as evidenced by the fact that he still is stuck on the entry round to find her Gate. You might dislike Serini less if you don't make up things that are not supported by the comic about her to dislike.

Aye. Or bringing up that she's helping the person that almost killed her and murdered her friends.

Shes not actively helping him. She's just not helping the Order and the paladins, and is trying to make them go away. If she wanted to actively help him, she could just gift him the Gate. Which she notably has not done.

[Metastachydium]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Eh, the Crimson Mantle letting Reddie keep his spellcssting was luck. No way to foresee that and, IIRC, Reddie himself was surprised.

Fair,

Spoiler: SoD

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although he shouldn't have been surprised. He got to keep his casting because it made him immune to disease.

[Peelee]

Fair,

Spoiler: SoD

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although he shouldn't have been surprised. He got to keep his casting because it made him immune to disease.

That's a good point, but

Spoiler

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it was a magical, epic disease.

Also, I'm not 100% that he was surprised, so I count even be wrong on that too start with.

But yeah, I'd still call it luck.

[Wraithfighter]

Shes not actively helping him. She's just not helping the Order and the paladins, and is trying to make them go away. If she wanted to actively help him, she could just gift him the Gate. Which she notably has not done.

Oh, sure, she hasn't gone to the level of giving him the thing he wants most of all, sure. But I sure do call "actively attacking and attempting to neutralize people that seek to stop him" a form of active help. Just because she's not knocking down all the barriers in Xykon's path doesn't make her knocking down these specific barriers any more acceptable or justified.

She's actively helping Xykon right now. She cleared out the scouting team that had important information that the Order of the Stick could've used to create a solid ambush of Xykon, and diverted them when they were prepared to ambush him at point-blank range when the opportunity came. That's a pretty hefty amount of support that she's given to the villain who murdered her friends and turned her into a Three-Eightsling.

[dancrilis]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Eh, the Crimson Mantle letting Reddie keep his spellcssting was luck. No way to foresee that and, IIRC, Reddie himself was surprised.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Not sure that Redcloak actually needed to cast any spells for helping turn Xykon into a lich.

[Peelee]

Oh, sure, she hasn't gone to the level of giving him the thing he wants most of all, sure. But I sure do call "actively attacking and attempting to neutralize people that seek to stop him" a form of active help. Just because she's not knocking down all the barriers in Xykon's path doesn't make her knocking down these specific barriers any more acceptable or justified.

She's actively helping Xykon right now. She cleared out the scouting team that had important information that the Order of the Stick could've used to create a solid ambush of Xykon, and diverted them when they were prepared to ambush him at point-blank range when the opportunity came. That's a pretty hefty amount of support that she's given to the villain who murdered her friends and turned her into a Three-Eightsling.

The Order was on the cusp of giving up one of the Gate defenses in the (likely) scenario that their attack failed. They already gave up a big hint with their disappearance. Serini seems to me to believe that while Xykon cannot be beaten, the Gate defenses may be able to prevent him from winning, and the Order's actions, while not deliberate, are an active hindrance to that.

Shes not actively helping him and more than the Order is actively helping him by showing him the tricks that are being used to stop him from getting to his goal.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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Not sure that Redcloak actually needed to cast any spells for helping turn Xykon into a lich.

A lich is an undead spellcaster, usually a wizard or sorcerer but sometimes a cleric or other spellcaster, who has used its magical powers to unnaturally extend its life.

It looks like license was used so that one caster can turn another person into a lich instead of just themselves, but the basis of the creature still seems to be magically created/tranformed. It's not explicit, and it could be handwaved away just like the "self" bit, but I wouldn't expect that to be the case.

[dancrilis]

Shes not actively helping him and more than the Order is actively helping him by showing him the tricks that are being used to stop him from getting to his goal.

I would argue that they have been more actively helpful then she has been.

But more importantly her mission is 'save world' which she is commited to even if Xykon ends up ruling it - the Order might not agree, which puts them as a potential threat to her mission.

Edit:

It looks like license was used so that one caster can turn another person into a lich instead of just themselves, but the basis of the creature still seems to be magically created/tranformed. It's not explicit, and it could be handwaved away just like the "self" bit, but I wouldn't expect that to be the case.

I think given the base change to the transformation that linking Redcloak's spellcasting to it is suspect.

I would also wonder if a wizard if high enough level but who hasn't any spells prepared could not become a lich but one with a cantrip prepared could - so I am dubious about the strictness of the casts spells requirement even in base (similiarly if you can cast from a scroll or want etc).

[Jay R]

I wonder how many other rescue parties O-Chul needed before, to get a nice baseline to compare with the order.

None, I suspect. The baseline for measuring a rescue is where you were right before the rescue.

Before rescue: tortured daily by Xykon, picking up important information one saving throw at a time.
After rescue: Back with liege lord, healed fully, in comfortable surroundings, having reported on important information.

That's really all the information you need for your evaluation. Conclusion: "Five stars, would be rescued by again."

[Wraithfighter]

The Order was on the cusp of giving up one of the Gate defenses in the (likely) scenario that their attack failed. They already gave up a big hint with their disappearance. Serini seems to me to believe that while Xykon cannot be beaten, the Gate defenses may be able to prevent him from winning, and the Order's actions, while not deliberate, are an active hindrance to that.

Except that the attack takes place after the point that she got involved and started mucking up the OOTS' plans. Sure, it's entirely possible that they would've found themselves in a similar situation anyway, but by preventing them from linking up with Lien and O-chul safely, comparing any notes that can't be summed up in 25 words, and most importantly understanding what the Paladins have figured out about the doors and gates, things went crazy.

Seriri's responsible for that. She's not the only one, sure, but her actions, done in a manner that would help Xykon's efforts, were the first untoward steps towards this path. She shares just as much blame for any downside to that potential ambush of the main villain, especially since her method there was less "don't do that guys some with me lets plan things out" but instead "time to neutralize more good guys trying to stop the main villain". Sorry, but she does not get to dodge any blame on this front here. She's actively helping Xykon, period.

[Peelee]

But more importantly her mission is 'save world' which she is commited to even if Xykon ends up ruling it - the Order might not agree, which puts them as a potential threat to her mission.

That I'll totally agree on. She's wrong, of course, and getting her to realize that is no small weapon in their arsenal of "turn her to their side if only they can get her to listen", but yeah, I'm with you 100% on that.

Except that the attack takes place after the point that she got involved and started mucking up the OOTS' plans.

Because if she doesn't Neutralize them, they'll go right back to doing what they were to start with. I fail to see the problem.

[Ekim One-Eye]

By the end of this tale the Azurites may consider V the greatest wizard of all time

Except the HELLFIRE TRIO still have vetoes left.

[Wraithfighter]

Because if she doesn't Neutralize them, they'll go right back to doing what they were to start with. I fail to see the problem.

Durkon only emphasized talking with Redcloak after their efforts at contacting Serini, Lien and O-Chul failed. If O-Chul and Lien had been present there, it's quite likely that discussion about meeting with Redcloak would've been tabled in favor of comparing notes, particularly since its probable that Step 1 would've been extracting Lien and O-Chul back to the airship to have a safe discussion on the topic.

Should we expect Serini to see 50 decisions into the future? Of course not. But by robbing OOTS of critical scouting intel for no other reason than her irrational terror of the big bad lich, she set things in motion down this path. She's deep in the wrong here, and she keeps digging herself in deeper.

This also gets into the issue with the Gate's defenses: It's not going to stop Xykon. It's stalling him out immeasurably, and it deserves credit for that, but eventually they'll have to switch plans and there's no reason to be going "maybe they'll never consider the possibility of epic-level, subtle traps". It might happen in a day, a week, a month, a year, or a decade, but Xykon's a Lich and Redcloak's lifespan is unnaturally extended by virtue of the Mantle. As I've said in previous threads, she's bought a marvelous amount of time, but she's completely and utterly wasting all of it. And by doing everything she can to prevent people from defeating Xykon, she's turning into a really fantastic ally of his, really top notch job of hers, kudos to the last living member of the Scribbles, Team Evil's Employee of the Month!

[Oromin]

Serini is definitely overestimating Xykon. Yes, he beat her — when he faced her out in the open without her having access to any of her rogue skills. Since then, he got destroyed by a random midlevel fighter, outright lost to one of her former companions while making a serious effort, and the only reason he didn't have his phylactery chucked into the rift was the hand of the author. And right now, with her, are witnesses to or authors of those defeats. Hopefully they can help her reason overcome her fear.

That said, she probably doesn't have such overwhelming fear of Redcloak. Redcloak is powerful and clever, but I don't think he has much in the way of answers to an antimagic ambush like the one Serini sprung on the Order. Is it just that he spends enough time with Xykon that Serini is afraid to move against him either?

He wasn't trying to kill the Order at Dorukan's Gate though. He needed them alive to unlock it for him. The fact that throwing him into the Gate was enough to one shot him is just as much the hand of the author. It certainly isn't going to happen twice. Even Roy admits it was a fluke.

I always felt like the fight with Soon was a close thing. Redcloak didn't show up till halfway through and still managed to take out all of Soon's backup. We don't know how much HP Soon still had at the end of the fight.

[dancrilis]

That I'll totally agree on. She's wrong, of course

I am not sure she is - if Roy has to make the call between no world and Xykon runs the world I am not sure the choice he would make.

Now Roy would likely say 'save world and don't let it be run by an evil lich' is the option he is going for but if that was off the table I am unsure which side he would go with.

Or perhaps more directly 'allow the ritual' or 'destroy the gate' I am not sure where he would sit on those two options.

[Peelee]

Durkon only emphasized talking with Redcloak after their efforts at contacting Serini, Lien and O-Chul failed. If O-Chul and Lien had been present there, it's quite likely that discussion about meeting with Redcloak would've been tabled in favor of comparing notes, particularly since its probable that Step 1 would've been extracting Lien and O-Chul back to the airship to have a safe discussion on the topic.

Should we expect Serini to see 50 decisions into the future? Of course not. But by robbing OOTS of critical scouting intel for no other reason than her irrational terror of the big bad lich, she set things in motion down this path.

"Robbing" the Order of critical intel? She's not beholden to give them everything they want to know. She "robbed" them of nothing, just as they did not "rob" her of critical intel that could have influenced her decisions once they arrived by not giving everything out part and parcel over their sendings.

I am not sure she is - if Roy has to make the call between no world and Xykon runs the world I am not sure the choice he would make.

Now Roy would likely say 'save world and don't let it be run by an evil lich' is the option he is going for but if that was off the table I am unsure which side he would go with.

Or perhaps more directly 'allow the ritual' or 'destroy the gate' I am not sure where he would sit on those two options.

Given that binary choice, I feel safe in saying that I fully believe Roy would not choose "destroy the Gate". And I would be sorely disappointed if that is anything less than completely accurate.

[elros]

I like what the Giant is doing in this strip:

• Haley is the voice of everyone who is angry at Serini,
• O-Chul and Lien the voices of everyone who are saying the Order should be given a chance to fight Xykon,
• Serini is explaining why she is traumatized, which is the opinion of many of her defenders.

I don't know if the Giant read the forums, but if he did, he has done a great job of addressing issues in-strip (the other example was V's use of dispel magic).

[Wraithfighter]

"Robbing" the Order of critical intel? She's not beholden to give them everything they want to know. She "robbed" them of nothing, just as they did not "rob" her of critical intel that could have influenced her decisions once they arrived by not giving everything out part and parcel over their sendings.

She ambushed and abducted O-Chul and Lien without provocation or warning. That's the robbing of critical intel I'm talking about. Unless your argument is that by merely being in the general vicinity of the Gate complex she's entitled to do whatever she wants to people, she's outright in the wrong here. And yes, one of the results of that was that the key scouting info that Lien and O-Chul could've given the order was taken. Hence "robbing the Order of critical intel".

[Rogan]

None, I suspect. The baseline for measuring a rescue is where you were right before the rescue.

Before rescue: tortured daily by Xykon, picking up important information one saving throw at a time.
After rescue: Back with liege lord, healed fully, in comfortable surroundings, having reported on important information.

That's really all the information you need for your evaluation. Conclusion: "Five stars, would be rescued by again."

Oh, I don't know...
This interpretation would mean that the order would get a worse result now, since the situation is not as bad. And the likely outcome is not that good either. It's still freaking cold up north, Team Evil is still dangerously close, etc.

I think a fair evaluation might take the difficulty of the rescue into account, but other things should be more important.
Using the end point of the rescue as a part of the evaluation is fine as well.
But things like the preparation of the rescue team, the time to arrival, amount of work required by the prisoner, execution of side missions etc. should be more important.

[Peelee]

She ambushed and abducted O-Chul and Lien without provocation or warning. That's the robbing of critical intel I'm talking about. Unless your argument is that by merely being in the general vicinity of the Gate complex she's entitled to do whatever she wants to people, she's outright in the wrong here. And yes, one of the results of that was that the key scouting info that Lien and O-Chul could've given the order was taken. Hence "robbing the Order of critical intel".

She only did that once they explicitly talked about trying to find the Gate. Unless your argument is they're entitled to muck around with her Gate with her defenses, while they tried to destroy their own Gate just to prevent Xykon from getting it, then no, she's not outright in the wrong there. They knew the deal with the Gates - don't mess with the defenses of the other ones. They can argue all they want to that the destruction of their gate means they can go to another one, but those words are worth their weight in gold for all that it matters to the actual defender of another Gate. To use the parlance of our time, they ****ed around and found out.

[Hurkyl]

She only did that once they explicitly talked about trying to find the Gate. Unless your argument is they're entitled to muck around with her Gate with her defenses, while they tried to destroy their own Gate just to prevent Xykon from getting it, then no, she's not outright in the wrong there. They knew the deal with the Gates - don't mess with the defenses of the other ones. They can argue all they want to that the destruction of their gate means they can go to another one, but those words are worth their weight in gold for all that it matters to the actual defender of another Gate. To use the parlance of our time, they ****ed around and found out.

And to drive home the point

Serini: No spying, no "just checking in" visits, no nothing. We leave here today and that's it. We're done with each other.
Shojo: They agreed, and swore an oath to that effect.

Furthermore, the protagonists' presence is totally sketchy. The whole reason the Order was originally railroaded into this campaign was so that Shojo could violate this agreement without the Sapphire Guard getting upset about it. And later, Hinjo used the Sapphire Guard's failure to defend a gate as an excuse to void his Paladin's oaths so they could involve themselves in the other gates. Maybe that excuse was even built-in by Soon, whether intentional or not.

[Wraithfighter]

She only did that once they explicitly talked about trying to find the Gate. Unless your argument is they're entitled to muck around with her Gate with her defenses, while they tried to destroy their own Gate just to prevent Xykon from getting it, then no, she's not outright in the wrong there. They knew the deal with the Gates - don't mess with the defenses of the other ones. They can argue all they want to that the destruction of their gate means they can go to another one, but those words are worth their weight in gold for all that it matters to the actual defender of another Gate. To use the parlance of our time, they ****ed around and found out.

Oh, so they talked about doing a thing! Gasp! The unbridled affront of them! The impudence, to do some direct scouting when there's no indication that the Gate has any guardians but the passive ones! What temerity of them!

But hey, I'm sure that the Rogue is a much better person to discuss the rules and morality with than the pair of Paladins.

You keep seeming to be arguing that as long as it makes sense to Serini, then she shouldn't be blame for her actions. But she's been helping Xykon out here for long enough that I just can't see any sense in that kind of argument, and I've got little patience for people who are willing to assault, abduct, brainwash, and who knows what else innocent people in order to preserve a status quo that has no chance of actually being maintained forever.

"No", says Serini, "Don't try to stop the big bad, just let him continue to idle here forever and ever, surely he'll never figure out a way past the trap that you losers who have no chance of actually defeating him managed to detect and evade on your first attempt! This is clearly a foolproof plan, and I'm so sure of it that I'm going to keep doing whatever's required to make sure no one manages to get in his way!"

Because at this point, why not give Xykon the Gate? She's stripped it of those looking to defend it proactively, she's refusing to act herself, she says that he's utterly unstoppable, she's thrown away every single bit of purchased time.

So, please, tell me what her plan is that doesn't amount to "...and Xykon will probably take the Gate anyway". Because if she doesn't have one, and she's getting in the way of everyone else trying to stop him from getting it, then she might as well just cut out the middleman and give it to him, because at least that way she stops the Gate from being destroyed first.

Or, maybe, just maybe...

...Serini's being completely irrational, and logic has nothing to do with how she's acting now, which explains why the defender of the final Gate has been helping the enemy so much.

[JonahFalcon]

ha ha! never got to read a comic before even the topic thread came up!

"Five star, would be rescued by again" is a great line!

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html

Belkar only gave his jail 3 stars, but would be incarcerated again.

[Peelee]

Oh, so they talked about doing a thing! Gasp! The unbridled affront of them! The impudence, to do some direct scouting when there's no indication that the Gate has any guardians but the passive ones! What temerity of them!

Yeah, and Serini will place them unharmed in a different t area with no recollection of what to do, and in no immediate danger. What a horrid psychopath. I hope that Xykon brutally murders her for such a dastardly plan.

[Wraithfighter]

Yeah, and Serini will place them unharmed in a different t area with no recollection of what to do, and in no immediate danger. What a horrid psychopath. I hope that Xykon brutally murders her for such a dastardly plan.

You forgot "while the world is conquered by an evil Lich because he has access to a power that even the Gods fear", and that's only operating on the info that Serini's allowed herself to be informed of. Totally nothing at all to worry about there.

Serini: Team Evil's Employee of the Month. Best to just create the plaque for her.

[Peelee]

You forgot "while the world is conquered by an evil Lich because he has access to a power that even the Gods fear", and that's only operating on the info that Serini's allowed herself to be informed of. Totally nothing at all to worry about there.

We can play this game all day long. They burned down their house, camped outside of hers, and talked about how to pick the locks and find the matches. Only then did they get hit with the "no trespassers" gun. And they knew about the "this means you" clause. Notwithstanding that they swore to protect the very thing they tried to destroy, and also swore to never go to hers, of course. But hey, you want Serini to twirl her mustache of idiocy so it's perfectly fine to ignore every actually valid concern that she has just so you can be happy with hwo you've already judged her. You do you, man. I certainly won't be able to stop you.

[dancrilis]

Given that binary choice, I feel safe in saying that I fully believe Roy would not choose "destroy the Gate". And I would be sorely disappointed if that is anything less than completely accurate.

Last time he destroyed the gate while admitting he didn't know the potential consequences - one of those consequences might have been that one gate alone couldn't do the job.

Seperately we know that even without Xykon and with knowing that the gates are foundational to reality he would have destoyed Dorukan's gate anyway (panels 1+2) just top keep it out of Redcloak's hands.

He might have changed his mind more recently after his actions in Girard's gate did nearly destroy the world via the deities (panel 9 indicates that), but allowing the ritual effectively has him gambling that an evil goblin and evil lich getting what they want with one of the pillars of reality is better then letting the gods (most of whom are not evil) decide.

If Roy was back in Girard's gate knowing what he knows now would he do anything differently - I am not convinced he would.