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2022-08-17, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
No, it's a very strong argument.
The infinite number of demons require infinite space, and have an infinite amount of space in D&D lore.
Nothing that I know of in D&D lore tells us what their density is in that infinite space. There could be one demon for every space the size of the observable universe in our world, and there'd still be an infinite number, and the modrons would typically never meet one on any reasonable finite journey, and if the number of modrons is finite and the length of their march is finite then they are only cutting across part of the abyss in their march.
If one per observable universe is too many for you, then reduce it to one per Googleplex observable universes, and the number of demons is still infinite.
How many demons the modrons meet is undetermined based on the available information, it is a number between 0 and a very large but finite value.Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2022-08-17 at 05:16 PM.
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2022-08-17, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2022-08-17, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
I always assumed that people saying planes were infinite meant "Its beyond our ability to measure in terms of scale", which is what people sometimes mean when they say something is infinite.
I like heated water, not heated arguments.
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2022-08-17, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Peelee; 2022-08-17 at 06:10 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2022-08-17, 07:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
I like heated water, not heated arguments.
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2022-08-17, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
Well, the modrones that are destroyed on the march never get to merge into their home plane, as the progression of souls on Mt.Celestia was described. Outsiders slain on non-native planes are a net loss of energy to their home plane. Meanwhile, demons slain on their home planes do incorporate into their plane, so the demon princes have good cause to hurl wave after wave of demons at the invading modrones.
Anyway. I just don't get the whole Modron March thing. But then Logic is a tool of Law, not its master. When called upon to do so, logic will service Law in the same way that Probability services Drama.
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2022-08-17, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
I assume the Modrons usually have proper plans so the entire March doesn’t get turned into scrap metal(and Modrons also get combat bonuses when in groups so that also helps). Also, the Lawful planes at least likely have agreements not to trouble them during their normally scheduled marches.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2022-08-17, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2022
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- Misery (h/t XTC)
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Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
"But it always seemed weird to me to get mad about things going wrong, as if everything turning out OK was promised to anyone, ever. There wouldn't need to be paladins if the world was, like, fair." -Lien
I get to be a favorite today!
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2022-08-17, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
The March is primarily along the roads which are a sort of physical link to the top layer of every plane
So they don’t encounter every fiend - and the fiends wouldn’t gang up on them precisely because the whole point of d&d fiends is they outnumber pretty much everyone else but are too busy fighting each other.
As for the timing - 284 years seems a short interval considering the March is along such massive distances. Then add in time to interpret the results.
As for the dead modrons I think the March is it’s own special magic so they end up returning to Mechanus for respawning - minus the few that go rogue.
Edit - found a discussion on this with sourcesIt's not clear whether modrons have a soul. They are constructs, machines. They are built, not born. However, in an earlier edition of the game, they are defined as living constructs, a type of construct which is sentient, can have free will, and can be raised or resurrected, suggesting they may have a soul. (Return of the Modrons, Dragon Magazine #354, p.35-49.)
There is some lore which suggests that their life energy could be trapped in that plane. In Return of the Modrons, p. 41, it states:
Ondrild, a now deceased wizard who studied modrons extensively, found through complex experimentation that destroyed modrons send their life energy back to the Energy Pool, and that each advancing modron subtly draws upon the pool to power its transformation.
Ondrild believed he was close to discovering how the energy transfers (even between planes) when he was found murdered and his laboratory destroyed. It was no surprise to Ondrild's students that the killers apparently destroyed the lab in a very thorough and orderly manner. None of them carried on his research in modrons after that.Last edited by mjasghar; 2022-08-17 at 11:53 PM.
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2022-08-18, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
I can imagine a square of 10 people by 10 people (with 9 more people stacked up, sitting on each of their heads) pretty well... but I could only make wild guesses if you asked me to estimate whether a non-arrayed crowd was 1000 or 10000.
Where I really trip myself up, though, is imagining dimensions of infinity.
There are infinite points in a line, right? It can't be any greater, because infinity +1 is meaningless.
But aren't there also infinite lines containing infinite points in a plane?
And infinite planes containing infinite lines containing infinite points in space?
And infinite spaces containing infinite planes containing infinite lines containing infinite points in time? (^_^)°
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2022-08-18, 01:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
Add time to that and each discrete point is altered, becoming another entity, very much like, but older than its temporal predecessor, so that each infinite point in time contains an infinity of spaces with infinite planes with infinite lines with infinite points which themselves contain an infinity of discrete subdivisions. Ad infinitum.
I hope I am not alone in being awed and humbled by this. It is a great big universe and we're all really puny, yes, we're all real small, (about the size of Mickey Rooney...)
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2022-08-18, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2022
Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
If you think "interesting" is an anticlimax, I feel sorry for you because it means you don't really know about interesting.
~Robin McKinley
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2022-08-18, 06:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Peelee; 2022-08-18 at 06:59 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2022-08-18, 07:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2022-08-18, 07:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2022-08-18, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"
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2022-08-18, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
there's indeed a finite number of modrons in existance at any time
but as soon as any modron dies a new monodrone spawns inmediatly in mechanus, if the modron was of higher rank then a modron of one rank lower will inmediatly be promoted and take over the duty of the dead modron with another modron of one rank lower promoting to fill the open space and so on and so on
this even applies to primus, as soon as he dies a secundus will take over as the new primus
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2022-08-18, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
Ah, now you're just trying to cheat. I see this game.
You can imagine that because you can imagine 10 of a thing. Minor change to the parameters, exact same structure but now it's 1000 units on each axis, and suddenly the problem re-appears plain as day. Our feeble human brains can't grasp the concept of it. The number is just too big. And a million? Forget about it. We're so bad at conceptualizing big numbers we by and large are overwhelmed when we are first introduced to decent breakdowns about the true difference between a million and a billion.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2022-08-18, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Tokyo
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Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
I remember a thing on television that explained if you counted 1 number per second it would take 11 and a half or so days to count to a million and over 30 years to get to a billion.
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2022-08-18, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2022-08-18, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2021
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2022-08-18, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
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2022-08-18, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Bristol, UK
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2022-08-18, 05:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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2022-08-18, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-08-18, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-08-18, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
yes, but I've been lucky with my education and as such I know we also have a billion, it's just that it's a million million rather then a thousand million
but seeing as how english media is a big thing I need to keep mind that our billion is not their billion but rather our milliard
the only thing I don't really know is who exactly is using the short form or the long form (the only rule of thumb I've come up with is that if it's in english it's probably the short form, I just wasn't really sure about the UK since halfeye asked about which billion is meant and he's from the UK)
edit: ah, I see where the disrepancy happened: personally I've never seen milliard used anywhere in english but as explanation of the difference between long form and short formLast edited by a_flemish_guy; 2022-08-18 at 06:58 PM.
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2022-08-18, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Bristol, UK
Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
I am from the UK but I'm old, I remember when a billion was 10^12 and 10^9 was "an American billion", now a billion is almost always 10^9. "long" and "short" forms aren't usually how English would describe the different billions.
I do like the way the SI affixes deal with this, the meanings of "kilo", "Mega", "Giga", "nano", etc. are so clear.Last edited by halfeye; 2022-08-18 at 07:37 PM.
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2022-08-18, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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2022-08-18, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1264 - The Discussion Thread
There are in fact different sizes of infinity, it's just that all the points in space is the same size infinity as all the numbers between zero and one.
But there's a proof that the number of real numbers is greater than the number of integers, and that the power set of any set is larger than the set.
So you can construct an infinite number of different infinities, start with set of all integers, take the power set of that set and you have a larger infinite set (the set of all subsets of the integers, this is the same size as the set of reals), then take the power set of that set and you have a larger infinite set (which is the size of the set of all functions of the reals), you can keep going, and you've left my ability to provide decent examples behind.
There's probably an irregular webcomic annotation out there somewhere that explains this better.