The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas

[Gwynfrid]

As (I think I) mentioned, I don't like to extrapolate for the entries (as opposed to the kind of interpolation necessary for summarizing), in much the same vein as my refusal to pass judgement on something the Giant's said; my view is that the Index should be providing neutral information for readers to make their own subjective interpretations from.

To that end....The Giant enjoying his ignorance of the "Tarquin is a Swordsage" theory is a personal preference that does not touch on the comic directly; for an entry this has no value one way or the other. Same with...whatever sequence of words is encompassing the Blue Carbuncle. Conversely, Wrecan technically being a Crusader does touch directly on a character in the comic and specific wording used in the comic; in the (highly likely) case the post gets an entry, that will be all it mentions.

Fully agree on all counts.

[Ruck]

Given that Rich has confirmed fan questions before (e.g. Girard's alignment) and given more detailed answers to certain questions even in this answer set, I think "No" to "Is Tarquin a Swordsage?" is a logical and safe extrapolation from his answer.

I think #7 if included would be better served with the full answer by way of explanation.

I'll have to think of any other possible suggestions on other questions.

[Kish]

Given that Rich has confirmed fan questions before (e.g. Girard's alignment) and given more detailed answers to certain questions even in this answer set, I think "No" to "Is Tarquin a Swordsage?" is a logical and safe extrapolation from his answer.

I concur, and do not see any logical way to read "I was unaware of both theories" to not indicate "no, I did not mean to convey either of the two things you just asked me about." If he meant for Tarquin to be a swordsage then it wouldn't be a theory and him being unaware of it would suggest he's suffering from profound amnesia.

[LadyEowyn]

I vote Yes for 6, 8, 12, and F1, and no for all the others.

[ti'esar]

Honestly, I don't see any reason not to include all.

Also, I feel like that was specified in the comic, but I can't find it somehow.

Just for the record, it's this strip. Though I agree that - speaking as someone who did assume that was referring to the class, but who also barely knows anything about said class - it's a sufficiently ambiguous reference that it does no harm to add the post.

[b_jonas]

Wait, I get it! You know how a lot of strip titles have a double meaning, right? Sometimes The Giant does it because readers often see the strip title first, so he wants the strip title to not spoil the strip contents. The title of #1288 is “Plus They're Not Even Blue” has a double meaning in a different way. It was about the Carbuncle from GDGU the whole time!

[Ron Miel]

wrong thread?

[Kish]

No, not the wrong thread.

[Jasdoif]

In case anyone's missed it, there's a new answers post over on Patreon; and a new forum post over...here, "cleverly" labelled as F1 on the table to keep everything together:

#	Question	In Favor	Against	Disposition	Posters
1	How do you feel about OOTS remaining (D&D) 3.5? Great.	6	3	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Kish, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c, Gwynfrid, LadyEowyn
2	What makes a good magic system? Lack of bad drama.	7	2	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn
3	Would you ever appear on a tabletop gaming stream? No.	6	4	Vote-able	In Favor: 137beth, Gwynfrid, Kish, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Aidan, Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium
4	Is the Open Gaming License an issue for the comic? No.	6	5	Vote-able	In Favor: 137beth, Gwynfrid, Kish, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Aidan, Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium, b_jonas
5	Why is your Patreon avatar Elan? Representative accuracy.	7	3	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium
6	How did you pick which Norse Gods made it into the Northern Pantheon? Matching names to reasons.	9	1	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c
7	Did you know Christopher Walken was going to appear in a Dune movie? No.	7	4	Vote-able	In Favor: 137beth, Gwynfrid, Joerg, Kish, Tzardok, b_jonas, ti'esar Against: Aidan, Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn, Sir_Norbert
8	Why was Tarquin obsessed with Elan and Nale? He saw extremes of personality.	10	1	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, b_jonas, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c
9	Do you read the forums anymore? No.	8	3	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, Metastachydium, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn, b_jonas
10	Do you speed the plot up after reader feedback? Not anymore.	8	3	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, Metastachydium, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn, b_jonas
12	Does Neutrality fit death gods better than Evil? Only sometimes.	9	1	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c
F1	Wrecan is technically a Crusader. ...yes.	12	0	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Grey_Wolf_c, Gwynfrid, Kish, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium, Ruck, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, b_jonas, ti'esar Against:

Spoiler: Breakdown by Poster

Show

Poster	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	12	F1
Kish
Ruck
Gwynfrid
Tzardok
Metastachydium
b_jonas
Sir_Norbert
Grey_Wolf_c
Aidan
Joerg
137beth
LadyEowyn
ti'esar

---

...though I would prefer a wording like "what is the actual reference in that strip".

To be clear, as this has come up twice now and I did change this from the verbatim question copy/paste the color-coded summary tables have used for almost...four years (geez): the overly terse question paraphrases are not the final entry text; I write those up later, once dispositions have started settling. The primary purpose is hinting at question content so people don't have to go look at the Patreon post every time a question number comes up...though it appears that the ancillary goal behind the change, highlighting where my interpretation of what's the important part is contested, is paying for itself in spades.

---

Given that Rich has confirmed fan questions before (e.g. Girard's alignment) and given more detailed answers to certain questions even in this answer set, I think "No" to "Is Tarquin a Swordsage?" is a logical and safe extrapolation from his answer.

"Given that the Giant has answered fan questions before, I think this thing that doesn't answer a fan question is logically an answer to a fan question"...? o_O

I concur, and do not see any logical way to read "I was unaware of both theories" to not indicate "no, I did not mean to convey either of the two things you just asked me about." If he meant for Tarquin to be a swordsage then it wouldn't be a theory and him being unaware of it would suggest he's suffering from profound amnesia.

While I can follow this, what's unstated is the implicit leap from "I did not mean to convey either of the two things you just asked me about" to "I did mean to convey the absence of the the two things you just asked me about"...<insert platitude about "absence of evidence" here/> Perhaps more importantly, I find it entirely plausible that the Giant did not nail Tarquin down to a specific class build...a scenario in which "Tarquin is not a Swordsage" would be technically accurate but also misleading.


In any case, as of yet I'm unmoved to laxen my standards for the Index that are intended to obviate me having to make these subjective calls let other people make these subjective calls themselves.

[Kish]

While I can follow this, what's unstated is the implicit leap from "I did not mean to convey either of the two things you just asked me about" to "I did mean to convey the absence of the the two things you just asked me about"...<insert platitude about "absence of evidence" here/> Perhaps more importantly, I find it entirely plausible that the Giant did not nail Tarquin down to a specific class build...a scenario in which "Tarquin is not a Swordsage" would be technically accurate but also misleading.

Sure, that's why I wouldn't phrase it that way, but would include the information that Rich did not intend Tarquin to be a swordsage or the carbuncle to be a Blue Carbuncle, which is relevant to both those characters. And would still let a reader conclude "Swordsage comes under fighter, so Tarquin can be one," if they believe the stated premise there.

(Which does not imply I do not now understand that you don't intend to.)

[Tubercular Ox]

The Carbuncle is blue. If you zoom in on the Monster Class design you can see it has a blue stone in its forehead.

This is the entirety of the "theory": That Rich would draw a Carbuncle living in Azure City as blue instead of red. Every description of it insists it has a red stone in its forehead, probably because "Carbuncle" is also a word for any red stone.

My goof was thinking the whole thing would be blue instead of just the stone.

The relevance to this thread is that Rich had a bag full of blue carbuncles he wanted to sell off when he told us that he'd never heard the "theory" before.

[Kish]

Ox, if he didn't use scare quotes, don't use scare quotes on one word he used, unless you actually want to try to convince the thread "sometimes Rich lies" should be a premise here.

(Unstated sub-bedrock premise for the ox's asserted hypothesis here: Rich must recognize that the world holds normal carbuncles with red stones, and a separate species of Blue Carbuncles with blue stones, not simply carbuncles with stones of some color or other.)

[Tubercular Ox]

Ox, if he didn't use scare quotes, don't use scare quotes on one word he used, unless you actually want to try to convince the thread "sometimes Rich lies" should be a premise here.

(Unstated sub-bedrock premise for the ox's asserted hypothesis here: Rich must recognize that the world holds normal carbuncles with red stones, and a separate species of Blue Carbuncles with blue stones, not simply carbuncles with stones of some color or other.)

I did not call it a theory, Rich did. That is not a lie, but it still merits making a distinction.

Also, I am embarrassed to call, "Maybe the Azure City Carbuncle will be blue," a theory.

[Kish]

If by "Blue Carbuncle" you mean nothing more than the tautological "his stone would be blue if he was drawn in color," sure.

[Jasdoif]

Sure, that's why I wouldn't phrase it that way, but would include the information that Rich did not intend Tarquin to be a swordsage or the carbuncle to be a Blue Carbuncle, which is relevant to both those characters. And would still let a reader conclude "Swordsage comes under fighter, so Tarquin can be one," if they believe the stated premise there.

(Which does not imply I do not now understand that you don't intend to.)

So not the hard no I saw when the subject was brought up here and thought everyone was talking about.

Hmm...That's a viable approach for Tarquin, I think.

[hroþila]

Should the description of #12 allude to the confirmation that Nergal is not Neutral? I know I've been involved in more than one debate on that point in this forum

[Jasdoif]

Should the description of #12 allude to the confirmation that Nergal is not Neutral? I know I've been involved in more than one debate on that point in this forum

That one'll probably get multiple entries, one of which is going to be like "Malack (and Nergal) are Evil".

I would be remiss not to mention the potential usefulness for Tzardok's deities thread, as well.

[Tzardok]

I'll link the post there as soon as the comment has been properly archived here; the current proof for Nergal's Evil alignment (the "unholy will" quote) is a bit thin.

[Peelee]

Should the description of #12 allude to the confirmation that Nergal is not Neutral? I know I've been involved in more than one debate on that point in this forum

I'll link the post there as soon as the comment has been properly archived here; the current proof for Nergal's Evil alignment (the "unholy will" quote) is a bit thin.

Imean I'd argue the whole "desire for industrialized continental holocaust" bit would settle things but I'm an optimist.

[Tzardok]

Imean I'd argue the whole "desire for industrialized continental holocaust" bit would settle things but I'm an optimist.

One should think so, but I had enough people argue that this is just be Malack's plan, who would be mistaken about what his god actually wants. Solid evidence is always better. *shrug*

[Reboot]

I concur, and do not see any logical way to read "I was unaware of both theories" to not indicate "no, I did not mean to convey either of the two things you just asked me about." If he meant for Tarquin to be a swordsage then it wouldn't be a theory and him being unaware of it would suggest he's suffering from profound amnesia.

You're saying this at the same time as he's pointing out an instance of a character using verbal slight of hand, saying something completely accurate which doesn't actually answer the question?

[Peelee]

One should think so, but I had enough people argue that this is just be Malack's plan, who would be mistaken about what his god actually wants. Solid evidence is always better. *shrug*

Ah, the ol' "Cap'n Crunch: Whoops, All Mass Murder!" defense.

[Ruck]

You're saying this at the same time as he's pointing out an instance of a character using verbal slight of hand, saying something completely accurate which doesn't actually answer the question?

What motive would Rich have to deceive us?

[ti'esar]

One should think so, but I had enough people argue that this is just be Malack's plan, who would be mistaken about what his god actually wants. Solid evidence is always better. *shrug*

TBF, though the specific circumstances here made it pretty unlikely a LN god having a LE cleric is explicitly normal within D&D rules. (There's actually a much more reasonable - at least until Utterly Dwarfed, IMO - debate over whether Redcloak is fully acting in accordance with the Dark One's will despite them both being LE.)

[Throknor]

What motive would Rich have to deceive us?

He's misled to preserve surprises before but that doesn't really apply to a question he could simply have chosen to not answer.

[Ruck]

He's misled to preserve surprises before but that doesn't really apply to a question he could simply have chosen to not answer.

Indeed, it does not.

[Jasdoif]

Let's see....

Spoiler: Summary

Show

#	Question	In Favor	Against	Disposition	Posters
1	How do you feel about OOTS remaining (D&D) 3.5? Great.	6	3	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Kish, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c, Gwynfrid, LadyEowyn
2	What makes a good magic system? Lack of bad drama.	7	2	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn
3	Would you ever appear on a tabletop gaming stream? No.	6	4	Vote-able	In Favor: 137beth, Gwynfrid, Kish, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Aidan, Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium
4	Is the Open Gaming License an issue for the comic? No.	6	5	Vote-able	In Favor: 137beth, Gwynfrid, Kish, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Aidan, Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium, b_jonas
5	Why is your Patreon avatar Elan? Representative accuracy.	7	3	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium
6	How did you pick which Norse Gods made it into the Northern Pantheon? Matching names to reasons.	9	1	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c
7	Did you know Christopher Walken was going to appear in a Dune movie? No.	7	4	Vote-able	In Favor: 137beth, Gwynfrid, Joerg, Kish, Tzardok, b_jonas, ti'esar Against: Aidan, Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn, Sir_Norbert
8	Why was Tarquin obsessed with Elan and Nale? He saw extremes of personality.	10	1	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, b_jonas, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c
9	Do you read the forums anymore? No.	8	3	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, Metastachydium, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn, b_jonas
10	Do you speed the plot up after reader feedback? Not anymore.	8	3	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, Metastachydium, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c, LadyEowyn, b_jonas
12	Does Neutrality fit death gods better than Evil? Only sometimes.	10	1	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Gwynfrid, Kish, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, hroþila, ti'esar Against: Grey_Wolf_c
F1	Wrecan is technically a Crusader. ...yes.	12	0	Include	In Favor: 137beth, Aidan, Grey_Wolf_c, Gwynfrid, Kish, LadyEowyn, Metastachydium, Ruck, Sir_Norbert, Tzardok, b_jonas, ti'esar Against:

Spoiler: Breakdown by Poster

Show

Poster	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	12	F1
Kish
Ruck
Gwynfrid
Tzardok
Metastachydium
b_jonas
Sir_Norbert
Grey_Wolf_c
Aidan
Joerg
137beth
LadyEowyn
ti'esar
hroþila

---

Seems stable enough that I should get started on entries....Ooh, fun; looks like we could be breaking the threshold into four posts o_o

Tenative Updates
🍍🍌Elan and Nale's Parentage How did it affect their alignment? The Giant can't fully answer because of events yet to be revealed. Elan spared Nale's life because of Elan's understanding of what it means to be good. See also here(#8) ("They are his only kids").	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌Elan's Dune Comment in #689(#7) "...it's a reference to the music video for Fatboy Slim's Weapon of Choice, which quotes Dune."	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌Malack (and Nergal) are Evil(#12) "He never actually says that either he or Nergal is Neutral, merely that it would be logically consistent if they were."	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌On Death Gods and Neutrality(#12) "What Malack says is entirely reasonable, but so is the idea that a culture could fear death so much that they conceive its personification as inherently malevolent...."	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌On Not Updating Past D&D 3.5(#1) "...I feel absolutely great about sticking with 3.5".	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌On What Makes Good Magic for a Story(#2) "I like my magic like I like my Star Trek technology: Full of nonsense terms that the audience has to infer the meaning of based on contextual clues."	#1291	2023/11/30
🍍🍌On the Forum and the Comic(#9) "I don't read the GITP forums at all anymore, either in or out of the OOTS context." See also here and here.	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌Selecting the Northern Deities(#6) "I mostly worked backwards from how I wanted the vote in the Godsmoot to shake out".	#1291	2023/11/30
🍍🍌The Comic Cannot Be Posted on a Consistent Basis(#9) "What you're suggesting is not something I can actually do." See also here(#10) ("So the remainder of the comic is going to take as long as it takes....")	#1291	2023/11/30
🍍🍌The Comic Is Not a Game Manual(#4) "...and has never had anything to do with the OGL at all".	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌The Giant Will Not Be Streaming D&D(#3) "...but I can't help consider whether or not I would have ever tried D&D if I had thought the games might be broadcast publicly. I sincerely think not."	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌The Giant on Using Elan as His Avatar(#5) "...for situations where the character image is going to...possibly be interpreted by newcomers as a depiction of me, I think it's better for everyone if I...use someone who matches me demographically."	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌Wrecan is a Crusader Also, Tarquin wasn't envisioned as a swordsage.	#1291	2023/11/27

---

He's misled to preserve surprises before but that doesn't really apply to a question he could simply have chosen to not answer.

While the mental image of HPoH's gaze working through the Giant's screen, compelling him to press the "Submit Reply" button, is amusing....I don't think choosing to reply is the determining factor you're after

[Precure]

Exclude all. I don't see any new information.

[Ruck]

While the mental image of HPoH's gaze working through the Giant's screen, compelling him to press the "Submit Reply" button, is amusing....I don't think choosing to reply is the determining factor you're after

For the record, I think "Tarquin wasn't envisioned as a Swordsage" is fine. (I think it's true, and if we don't want to say "no" because he didn't definitely say "no," then I think this is a fair compromise that represents his intentions.)

[Kish]

Indeed, sounds good.