OOTS #1295 - The Discussion Thread

[Liquor Box]

As Tuwwr pointed out, Belkar could easily upset the balance of things by throwing the enchanted lizard (now friendly to Belkar and his companions) into Sunny"s anti-magic ray, restoring it to its dragon form. But Belkar may not even need to take action-- depending on where it is at the moment, the simple action of Sunny's gaze in his direction could strike his friend, freeing him.

Was Lien left behind in the pool of "acid"? No one offers her a lift, and I don't see her in the red dragon's chamber. She could be a surprise element.

Also, Elan points out Sunny's lens lying just outside the doorway, and Haley is looking right at it. Could Haley stick it on the end of an arrow and reinsert it? Could Serini simply reactivate the stasis field if Sunny's gaze is no longer an issue?

Isn't the lizard a dinosaur, not a dragon?

Edit: Yes, Daniel said it's an Allosaur. Those are only about as big asa rhino or a hippo, so I don't think they'd be a match for a big dragon.

Well, the disenchanters and the Paragon Rust Monster would have been devastating considering how dependent 3.x adventurers are on magic gear. The Indescribable Horror and the Blue Poet don't seem to be actual D&D monsters though. The primary issue with this stage of the dungeon is that unlike the shell game gauntlet, Serini can't really restock these nearly as easily, and the traps are also very static.

Devastating on Redcloak and Xykon etc? Their items are things like the Crimson Mantle - would it work on those?

Yeah, Serini actually said one of the weaknesses was that she couldn't restock quickly, so an intruder can grind he dungeons down a bit at a time.

The Draketooth pyramid had a bunch of secret passages and peepholes for the Draketooth sorcerers to look through and probably take notes on the intruders, which could easily result in two dozen mid~high level sorcerers ambushing a party taking a rest or otherwise out of resources. This isn't something Serini's dungeon can do, and with the rest of the Scribblers out of the picture that means that time is still on Team Evil's side.

Now that they're here, and hopefully if they prove themselves to Serini, the Order can probably do that. Assuming of course, no further complications arise - and oh look, the IFCC still has two claims on V's soul left. I expect that the first attempt to use scry-and-die on Team Evil is going to get foiled by that, because to Roy's frustration the comic just loves dangling opportunities in front of the Order and then yanking them away.

I don't think it's about the Order proving themsleves anymore, that passed when they defeated her. Now it's just a matter of them keeping her in line.

[Iamyourking]

If the Red Dragon is indeed 84 feet, that would make him Colossal by 3.5 rules, meaning he could only be a Great Wyrm.. Which have a CR of 26, so good luck to our heroes - they're going to need it...

It actually puts him dead on Gargantuan (Draconomicon 51).

[danielxcutter]

Isn't the lizard a dinosaur, not a dragon?

Edit: Yes, Daniel said it's an Allosaur. Those are only about as big asa rhino or a hippo, so I don't think they'd be a match for a big dragon.

In terms of size alone I think Bloodfeast is about as big, maybe bigger than Calder. It's just that size is really not indicative of actual combat threat beyond a certain point. Still, if he's in the AMF that'd just make it a raw comparison of stats - which Calder's still going to be better at, but even just surviving a full attack from Calder means an entire round the dragon isn't unleashing that full attack on a squishier member of the party, or using breath attacks or spells/spell-like abilities.

Devastating on Redcloak and Xykon etc? Their items are things like the Crimson Mantle - would it work on those?

Mmm... I don't think that'll really happen with Team Evil, since things rarely go that well, and they're primarly spellcasters with summoned and allied monsters, not melee combatants in magic gear. And the Crimson Mantle's an artifact (quite probably a major artifact), so disenchanters wouldn't be able to destroy it. It could slow them down, I think, but I think the big monsters are actually going to delay them more. Especially since Xykon has so many immunities that a lot of things just don't work on him, period.

Yeah, Serini actually said one of the weaknesses was that she couldn't restock quickly, so an intruder can grind he dungeons down a bit at a time.

It might have worked if even one of the Scribblers was alive, but yeah - being the last Gate is by far when this dungeon is at its weakest.

I don't think it's about the Order proving themselves anymore, that passed when they defeated her. Now it's just a matter of them keeping her in line.

I don't think she really has much faith in their combat capabilities. Taking her down was more counteracting her tricks and being more clever than her, rather than a straight fight. Calder, on the other hand, is quite likely to be a fight where stats and strategy matter more than guile and trickery.

[hamishspence]

According to Redcloak in No Cure For The Paladin Blues bonus strips, the dragon they encountered in Xykon's old tower was an "ancient silver dragon" (Which are Gargantuan, and have same sizes at each age category, as red dragons).

Here it, as a zombie

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html


looks pretty comparable in size to the red dragon. Perhaps a touch smaller, but not half the size the way it would be if the red dragon was Colossal.

[Rollin]

If you attack a dragon to subdue it, each hit inflicts no actual damage, but you keep track of how much you would have and call it "subdual" damage. As soon as you've inflicted enough subdual damage, the dragon surrenders. I think there was a % chance each round based on the ratio of subdual damage compared to the dragon's full health. Essentially you prove to the dragon that you could have killed it, but chose not to.

And subdued dragons would serve you only as long as they thought you could repeat the experience. The more powerful they were, the more they'd plot an escape and revenge.

Someone had read Farmer Giles of Ham.

[Alex Warlorn]

I'd go with "Rising Up!" from Tales of Zestiria OST

[danielxcutter]

According to Redcloak in No Cure For The Paladin Blues bonus strips, the dragon they encountered in Xykon's old tower was an "ancient silver dragon" (Which are Gargantuan, and have same sizes at each age category, as red dragons).

Here it, as a zombie

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html


looks pretty comparable in size to the red dragon. Perhaps a touch smaller, but not half the size the way it would be if the red dragon was Colossal.

"Half the size" is actually not as visually obvious as it sounds. If it's half as tall, half as wide, and half as long, it's an eighth of the size, not half.

[WanderingMist]

Two points here.

First, it is not necessary. All the Scribbles defended their gates in different way, and none of the others seemed to have enslaved monsters - there's no reason to think that it is necessary here. Indeed, even Serini has said she no longer enslaves fresh monsters. Your mileage may vary on whether slavery can be justified if it was absolutely necessary to save the world, but here it is not.

Second, there is a difference between taking a prisoner (and even then, as you and I have discussed, that is sometimes justified and sometimes not), and enslaving someone to perform guard duty for decades.

You are assuming Calder themselves wasn't in the middle of some deplorably evil action, perhaps regularly demanding sacrifice from a nearby village that had no way to stop them, as is usual in fairy tales.

[Arthaiser]

im not scared for the party, i mean, V is right there, and V has killed basically more dragons than any other character in the story of the world.

[Sir_Norbert]

99% I'm looking too much into it, but it could mean that if this is the halfway point in the book, we could see Sunny's end. I don't think it honestly, but more "it's entirely possible that this could be the end of Serini, with Sunny to carry on her legacy with helping defend the gates (before things go south with team evil getting to the gate)

This is the 106th strip of Book 7. Based on the length of the other books, I would guess we are approaching the halfway point but not yet there.

Of course, Rich's words that someone [i.e. Sunny] would become an important ally in the first half are still true, whether Sunny sticks around into the second half or not.

[GMantis]

Between Serini and the Dragon, it is Serini who is the villain.

Are there still people who think that Serini is good aligned?

I certainly do - nothing in her behavior would contradict this. Certainly not imprisoning an evildoer. That Calder is angry at being imprisoned doesn't mean that he didn't deserve it. Of course it's possible that he was innocent Red Dragon just minding his own business and Serini went out of her way to capture him for her dungeon, but so far this theory doesn't seem particularly likely, what with the whole burning people alive for not being sufficiently servile...

[Liquor Box]

In terms of size alone I think Bloodfeast is about as big, maybe bigger than Calder. It's just that size is really not indicative of actual combat threat beyond a certain point. Still, if he's in the AMF that'd just make it a raw comparison of stats - which Calder's still going to be better at, but even just surviving a full attack from Calder means an entire round the dragon isn't unleashing that full attack on a squishier member of the party, or using breath attacks or spells/spell-like abilities.

Yeah, I must admit I'm not very confident of estimates people make of the size of two animals in a comic. I'm not at all sure the Giant even tries to ensure they are all to scale, and then you have forced perspective on top of that.

Mmm... I don't think that'll really happen with Team Evil, since things rarely go that well, and they're primarly spellcasters with summoned and allied monsters, not melee combatants in magic gear. And the Crimson Mantle's an artifact (quite probably a major artifact), so disenchanters wouldn't be able to destroy it. It could slow them down, I think, but I think the big monsters are actually going to delay them more. Especially since Xykon has so many immunities that a lot of things just don't work on him, period.

It sounds like you agree with Serini, that her dungeon would just slow Team Evil down.

It might have worked if even one of the Scribblers was alive, but yeah - being the last Gate is by far when this dungeon is at its weakest.

I agree. Serini's dungeon would be a good one if it had a hit squad able to to take down attackers, like Dorukan's, Soon's and Gerard's (perhaps) did. But Serini hasn't had that for a long time.

I don't think she really has much faith in their combat capabilities. Taking her down was more counteracting her tricks and being more clever than her, rather than a straight fight. Calder, on the other hand, is quite likely to be a fight where stats and strategy matter more than guile and trickery.

I agree again. She did underestimate their combat ability, and possibly continues to do so. It still a dumb decision, because she was in the position of needing to take the best shot with what she had available, before Team Evil inevitably (in her stated opinion) took the gate.

It doesn't really matter what she thinks anymore though, because she's not running the show.

You are assuming Calder themselves wasn't in the middle of some deplorably evil action, perhaps regularly demanding sacrifice from a nearby village that had no way to stop them, as is usual in fairy tales.

I guess I am assuming that. But you could justify just about any character as good or evil by what might or might not have happened off screen. The only thing we can use (IMO) to judge a character is what we see, or perhaps what is referred to in the comic, and based on that Serini has been the villain of the two so far.

To be honest though, even if the dragon was evil (and Serini knew it because she saw it), I still am not sure that justifies enslaving it for decades.

[Psepha]

I'd be VERY disappointed if this actually was the fight where Belkar goes out. I want to see him have a moment of glory against Xykon - he's specifically experienced in fighting undead at this point, so not giving him that moment to shine when it feels like he got given character development to prepare him for that fight would be a real shame.

Also I hope fighting a dragon like this isn't triggering for Vaarsuvius... last time V had to go toe to toe with an enraged ancient dragon it did NOT go well for far too many people

[danielxcutter]

Trying to slow intruders down was kind of the point of the dungeon from the start, Serini said so herself. It was meant to buy time for her to get the rest of the Scribblers to help, but it'll still buy the Order time to deal with their own problems when the IFCC inevitably throws pitforged spanners into the Order's plans, and the Order can function as the aforementioned hit squad.

[Liquor Box]

Trying to slow intruders down was kind of the point of the dungeon from the start, Serini said so herself. It was meant to buy time for her to get the rest of the Scribblers to help, but it'll still buy the Order time to deal with their own problems....

Yes, I agree entirely.

I certainly do - nothing in her behavior would contradict this. Certainly not imprisoning an evildoer. That Calder is angry at being imprisoned doesn't mean that he didn't deserve it. Of course it's possible that he was innocent Red Dragon just minding his own business and Serini went out of her way to capture him for her dungeon, but so far this theory doesn't seem particularly likely, what with the whole burning people alive for not being sufficiently servile...

Whether the forum thought Serini was evil, neutral or good has been canvassed a long time before this strip

Apparently before we even met her, based on flashabcks:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...erini-was-Evil

And also, shortly after we met her (between her kidnapping the paladins and attacking the Order from memory:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ment-(sort-of)

So I wont revisit all of those arguments.

But based on this one example (enslaving Calder), I think it does contradict it. Not so much that it's impossible she's good, but enough that what we've seen doesn't indicate it.

• First, we don't actually know Calder is evil (although I suspect he might be given his demands for servility - ironic since Serini has forced him into servility for so long).
• Secondly, its questionable whether being evil alone is grounds enough to imprison - some would suggest you should only be judged for your actions (and then by someone with authority to do so).
• Third, Calder is not merely imprisoned, he is enslaved - this is not a prison, instead Calder is there to perform a job for captor (guarding the dungeon).
• Fourthly, Serini effectively tells us in strip 1283 that she is not righteously locking up evildoers, but forcing monsters into guard duty because it was expedient (she contrasts it with her current approach of getting agreement from vulnerable monsters to do the job).

It's not impossible that Serini has done good somehwere off-screen in her life such that it outweighs her actions in recent strips. But what we have seen does not paint a picture of 'good'.

[danielxcutter]

I wonder if Calder was awake and aware for all these years, or if the stasis spell has degraded with time. Because the latter kinda makes sense but the former is a pretty damn big yeesh moment, yeah.

[Provengreil]

So, betting time: Someone dies here.

It'll be Bloodfeast.

We all know he doesn't have the stats to take on Calder directly, sure, but if he jumps in Sunny's beam he's still plenty large enough to cause issues based on size alone. That opening can create room for the order to accomplish.....something, but he'll pay for it with his life. This will be one of the final psychological nails in the coffin that sets up Belkar for his own sacrifice later.

[The_Weirdo]

You are assuming Calder themselves wasn't in the middle of some deplorably evil action, perhaps regularly demanding sacrifice from a nearby village that had no way to stop them, as is usual in fairy tales.

You kill or you imprison someone like that. What you do not do is force them into combat-based slavery. The best-case scenario for Serini here is that she's acting like Amanda Waller from Suicide Squad, and Waller is at best a morally gray character (though anyone that knows the risk people like her represent and the type of person she truly is should know better than call her morally gray).

[Liquor Box]

I'd be VERY disappointed if this actually was the fight where Belkar goes out. I want to see him have a moment of glory against Xykon - he's specifically experienced in fighting undead at this point, so not giving him that moment to shine when it feels like he got given character development to prepare him for that fight would be a real shame.

Also I hope fighting a dragon like this isn't triggering for Vaarsuvius... last time V had to go toe to toe with an enraged ancient dragon it did NOT go well for far too many people

Agree. Belkar is a protagnist, to see him go out against an antagonist who isn't even a tertiary villain would be unsatisfying.

[Raven777]

Between Serini and the Dragon, it is Serini who is the villain.

Are there still people who think that Serini is good aligned?

By classic D&D morality, defeating then imprisoning an adult Evil™ Red Dragon is, at worst, Neutral™. If the dragon has its own history of atrocities and the imprisonment can be construed as karma or punishment, it might even be Good™ and Lawful™.

Regardless, I thought it was pretty obvious Serini lives firmly in Chaotic Neutral territory.

[Liquor Box]

By classic D&D morality, defeating then imprisoning an adult Evil™ Red Dragon is, at worst, Neutral™. If the dragon has its own history of atrocities and the imprisonment can be construed as karma or punishment, it might even be Good™ and Lawful™.

Regardless, I thought it was pretty obvious Serini lives firmly in Chaotic Neutral territory.

I tend to agree that, if we ever do find out her alignment, it will probably be chaotic evil. But to repeat my above post in response to your other points:

• First, we don't actually know Calder is evil (although I suspect he might be given his demands for servility - ironic since Serini has forced him into servility for so long).
• Secondly, its questionable whether being evil alone is grounds enough to imprison - some would suggest you should only be judged for your actions (and then by someone with authority to do so).
• Third, Calder is not merely imprisoned, he is enslaved - this is not a prison, instead Calder is there to perform a job for captor (guarding the dungeon).
• Fourthly, Serini effectively tells us in strip 1283 that she is not righteously locking up evildoers, but forcing monsters into guard duty because it was expedient (she contrasts it with her current approach of getting agreement from vulnerable monsters to do the job).

[Peelee]

Two points here.

First, it is not necessary. All the Scribbles defended their gates in different way, and none of the others seemed to have enslaved monsters - there's no reason to think that it is necessary here. Indeed, even Serini has said she no longer enslaves fresh monsters. Your mileage may vary on whether slavery can be justified if it was absolutely necessary to save the world, but here it is not.

Second, there is a difference between taking a prisoner (and even then, as you and I have discussed, that is sometimes justified and sometimes not), and enslaving someone to perform guard duty for decades.

Yes, Miko did not plan to enslave them. Miko planned to kill them. You seem to think this is an ethical improvement - or, at the very least, compatible with Good. I doubt anything i say would change your mind, and I'm not terribly interested in doing so in any event. Suffice it to say, i stand by my statement - firmly think she's neutral, would not be surprised if the narrative revealed she was Good.

I'm not sure anything we've seen in the last few strips is very different from what I had imagined would be behind some of those doors.

Interesting that such an imagination was not voiced at any point until now, then.

[hamishspence]

"Half the size" is actually not as visually obvious as it sounds. If it's half as tall, half as wide, and half as long, it's an eighth of the size, not half.

And a Gargantuan dragon would be around half the length of a Colossal dragon, using Draconomicon's listed standard dragon lengths.

The important part is that the Red dragon does not look like it is double the length of the Silver dragon zombie.

[Gift Jeraff]

Looks like they found the Final Dungeon's optional super boss.

[Liquor Box]

Yes, Miko did not plan to enslave them. Miko planned to kill them. You seem to think this is an ethical improvement - or, at the very least, compatible with Good. I doubt anything i say would change your mind, and I'm not terribly interested in doing so in any event. Suffice it to say, i stand by my statement - firmly think she's neutral, would not be surprised if the narrative revealed she was Good.

No, she planned to capture them and bring them to trial, but was willing to kill them if they tried to escape. Different to enslaving someone, but very happy to agree to disagree on whether enslaving someone is worse than that.

I agree that she may well turn out that she's neutral, but would be surprised if she's good.

Interesting that such an imagination was not voiced at any point until now, then.

It was voiced, by me and numerous others, that the doors had high level monsters (capable of giving Xykon experience0 and traps behind them. Which is what we've seen. Is there anything you've seen that departs from that? Or did you think the doors didn't have strong monsters or traps behind them?

[Mic_128]

So, betting time: Someone dies here.

It'll be Bloodfeast.

We all know he doesn't have the stats to take on Calder directly, sure, but if he jumps in Sunny's beam he's still plenty large enough to cause issues based on size alone. That opening can create room for the order to accomplish.....something, but he'll pay for it with his life. This will be one of the final psychological nails in the coffin that sets up Belkar for his own sacrifice later.

I don't think so, not yet at least. There would have to be some sort of payoff for Bloodfeast seeing that Roy hasn't actually been visited by Julia.

Also, I don't think Belkar really needs that, as it's exactly what Durkon already did.

[Peelee]

No, she planned to capture them and bring them to trial

Which she fully believed they would be convicted of, and which she claimed the only possible sentence was death.

That sounds like slavery killing them with more steps.

It was voiced, by me and numerous others, that the doors had high level monsters (capable of giving Xykon experience0 and traps behind them. Which is what we've seen. Is there anything you've seen that departs from that? Or did you think the doors didn't have strong monsters or traps behind them?

Ah, my mistake. Similarly, i played in a unique D&D game once. It had monsters and an adventure. Another game i played had monsters and an adventure. I had thought they were wildly different campaigns but through thought process of just being incredibly vague i now know they were both pretty much the same thing.

Also, it's a bit boring having yet another dungeon that has monsters and traps, seeing as Dorukan's Dungeon had monsters and traps, and Girard's Dungeon had monsters and traps, and Lirian's dungeon had monsters and traps. So much repetition!

[Liquor Box]

Which she fully believed they would be convicted of, and which she claimed the only possible sentence was death.

That sounds like slavery killing them with more steps.

Whether it sounds like it to you or not, it is not her killing them. But either way it's different to slavery because it is intended (by Miko at least) to to be justice for crimes. It is not wanting someone to do something, so going out capturing them, and forcing them to.

Ah, my mistake. Similarly, i played in a unique D&D game once. It had monsters and an adventure. Another game i played had monsters and an adventure. I had thought they were wildly different campaigns but through thought process of just being incredibly vague i now know they were both pretty much the same thing.

Also, it's a bit boring having yet another dungeon that has monsters and traps, seeing as Dorukan's Dungeon had monsters and traps, and Girard's Dungeon had monsters and traps, and Lirian's dungeon had monsters and traps. So much repetition!

You are being sarcastic, but you are prettty much spot on here. This is just another dungeon. The traps are intricate (probably less so then the main trap in Serini's other dungeons) and the monsters are high level (which we already knew they were in Serini's dungeons). Indeed, it even resembles Dorukon's dungron in terms of the look. How does it differ from what you expected?

[BloodSquirrel]

Point of order: She's not forcing Calder to fight. She doesn't have any kind of compulsion on him, nor is there any known or implied threat against him if he doesn't. As far as we know, he is perfectly free and capable of just letting an intruder pass or even teaming up with them. If he's being used as a guardian, then so far, the only reason Serini is confident that he'll fight is that he is naturally belligerent enough to attack anyone who comes in without coercion on her part.

And given that he just tried to murder the whole party while Roy was in the middle of saying that he didn't want to fight puts him pretty firmly in the "evil" category.

More to the point of this whole thing, we once again see evidence of my assertion that Serini is "very clever, but also very dumb". She's created a dungeon that she isn't fully in control of. Somehow, she's trapped a red dragon in it as a guardian, but doesn't seem to have considered that maybe it might not just sit there quietly and play its part. If Xykon and Redcloak had walked into this room it damned well might have decided to team up with them.

[Tzardok]

Whether it sounds like it to you or not, it is not her killing them. But either way it's different to slavery because it is intended (by Miko at least) to to be justice for crimes. It is not wanting someone to do something, so going out capturing them, and forcing them to.

False dichotomy. Slavery has been used as punishment for crimes by societies that thought this just. Ancient Greece or Rome, for example, had people enslaved as punishment for certain crimes, and even in the younger past, inmates in American prisons had to do forced work.