Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore

[b_jonas]

I don't think it matters if he's a frontline fighter. Shojo probably created his character during D&D first edition (he's older than Haley's father). Back then Strength was the only stat that mattered. He would add his strength bonus to everything, it doesn't matter if he's swinging a sword from the front or shooting a bow from the back. He probably uses his Strength score even for his gaze attacks. The Stickiverse mostly still works like that: see #791 and #390 11th, which shows that using any stat other than Strength is the exception, and this was even more true in the first edition days. The only characters who can afford not having a high Strength are ones like Vaarsuvius who only use spellcasting for combat, and I don't believe Shojo is one of them.

[Tzardok]

From the fact that the Order of the Scribble (who are even older than Shojo) already worked by 3.0 rules (proof: characters with class-race-combinations that would've been illegal in 1e like Kragor), we can deduce that besides the change from 3.0 to 3.5 no edition changes happened in the past of Stickworld, unless for the purpose of a joke.

[LadyEowyn]

I wanted to ask this here because people in this thread probably have a solid knowledge of game mechanics.

In Start of Darkness, Xykon puts some kind of spell on MITD commanding him to eat Redcloak and spit out the phylactery if Redcloak ever betrays Xykon. Is there actually any known D&D spell that could make that kind of command permanently in effect (or even make it last multiple years)? Or is this either a homebrew or something that may have worn off?

[Metastachydium]

I wanted to ask this here because people in this thread probably have a solid knowledge of game mechanics.

In Start of Darkness, Xykon puts some kind of spell on MITD commanding him to eat Redcloak and spit out the phylactery if Redcloak ever betrays Xykon. Is there actually any known D&D spell that could make that kind of command permanently in effect (or even make it last multiple years)? Or is this either a homebrew or something that may have worn off?

Geas. 6th level, available to Sorcerers, "affects a creature of any HD and allows no saving throw"; "[w]hile a geas cannot compel a creature to kill itself or perform acts that would result in certain death, it can cause almost any other course of activity. The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes."

[Peelee]

Geas. 6th level, available to Sorcerers, "affects a creature of any HD and allows no saving throw"; "[w]hile a geas cannot compel a creature to kill itself or perform acts that would result in certain death, it can cause almost any other course of activity. The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes."

Slight addendum there:

If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level. A clever recipient can subvert some instructions.

[Metastachydium]

Slight addendum there:

Well, I believe that still leaves us with Geas as the best candidate, so… Most likely (i.e. provided it is Geas, the most likely candidate), it either ran out already which is not terribly interesting; or the Giant is playing fast and loose with RAW again; or it's a thing where for whatever odd semantic reason the Monster understands and accepts it as a task he can perform (since it is basically keeping watch on Redcloak and eating him if need be) and isn't open-ended (because there are at least three ways in which the conditions specified can be met (Xykon is destroyed forever; Redcloak dies; Redcloak betrays Xykon)).

[Tzardok]

What luck for you that there is a permanent version of geas in Heroes of Horror, familial geas. It even gets inherited by all your descendents!

But I personally don't think it's a geas. The MitD doesn't seem to know that it is enchanted, and geas and especially familial geas make it really clear to you what is expected of you, so to me it looks more like some permanent version of suggestion. Sadly there doesn't seem to be a canonical version of that spell with permanent duration, but nothing says Xykon can't have researched one.

Edit: Technically, programmed amnesia could achieve something like that, but it is a) not a perfect fit, and b) takes 10 minutes to cast, plus an expensive material component.

[LadyEowyn]

Thank you all, this is extremely helpful!

[Peelee]

Well, I believe that still leaves us with Geas as the best candidate, so… Most likely (i.e. provided it is Geas, the most likely candidate), it either ran out already which is not terribly interesting; or the Giant is playing fast and loose with RAW again; or it's a thing where for whatever odd semantic reason the Monster understands and accepts it as a task he can perform (since it is basically keeping watch on Redcloak and eating him if need be) and isn't open-ended (because there are at least three ways in which the conditions specified can be met (Xykon is destroyed forever; Redcloak dies; Redcloak betrays Xykon)).

Oh, i fully agree across thr board. Just wanted to be more specific, was all.

What luck for you that there is a permanent version of geas in Heroes of Horror, familial geas. It even gets inherited by all your descendents!

Can you get it as a tattoo?

[Tubercular Ox]

it's a thing where for whatever odd semantic reason the Monster understands and accepts it as a task he can perform (since it is basically keeping watch on Redcloak and eating him if need be) and isn't open-ended (because there are at least three ways in which the conditions specified can be met (Xykon is destroyed forever; Redcloak dies; Redcloak betrays Xykon)).

I like this a lot. It helps that there's a blank on Xykon's spell list at 6th level. Shame about the 10 minute casting time. Lesser Geas has a 1 round casting time, but only affects targets up to 7 HD.

I can think of two or three ways around this but maybe it's good enough to leave alone.

I'd also like to point out that O-Chul somehow figured out Xykon has Soul Bind.

[MultitudeMan]

I wanted to ask this here because people in this thread probably have a solid knowledge of game mechanics.

In Start of Darkness, Xykon puts some kind of spell on MITD commanding him to eat Redcloak and spit out the phylactery if Redcloak ever betrays Xykon. Is there actually any known D&D spell that could make that kind of command permanently in effect (or even make it last multiple years)? Or is this either a homebrew or something that may have worn off?

Beni-Kujaku asked this about a year and a half ago, in post 57 of this thread, and had this suggestion:

I haven't found any sorcerer Compulsion spell with such a permanent effect, except Hypnotism. If the target was already friendly to Xykon (which it seemingly was), that would make it permanently fanatic in regards to that specific suggestion, which is probably how it will work.

Any reason this couldn't be the solution, other than possibly problematic HD consequences for MitD?

[Doug Lampert]

Beni-Kujaku asked this about a year and a half ago, in post 57 of this thread, and had this suggestion:



Any reason this couldn't be the solution, other than possibly problematic HD consequences for MitD?

Higher level can remove or increase HD limits on spells that have them. For example: Sleep targets 4 HD (level 1), deep slumber targets 10 HD (level 3).

Hypnotism is level 1 and targets up to 2d4 HD, a higher level version could target more HD as for sleep and deep slumber.

Putting such a spell at a level higher than that where "save or lose" effects already exist with no HD limit, Hold Monster (for example) already exists at level 5 for sorcerers, so I'd probably allow unlimited HD targets for a hypnotism like spell at level 6 with no real hesitation. Yes, it's potentially broken, it's also a higher level spell than Magic Jar (for example). D&D 3.x magic is so full of broken that I doubt that such a spell would make the top 100.

It's a reasonable spell to exist, and we know that X has researched custom spells.

[Tubercular Ox]

Mass Cure Moderate Wounds is a 6th level spell, bards have to be at least level 16 to have it, and Elan has a level in Dashing Swordsman on top. Is Elan level 17?

[Kurald Galain]

added Mass Cure Moderate Wounds.
and others, changed the skills from #1268 ("No Skill Point") to zero.
removed IBR, Knockback feats.
added Ballista Throw, Counter Charge, Disrupting Blow; removed IUS, Stunning Fist.
added Crushing Weight of the Mountain.

Malack can learn this through the Martial Study and Martial Stance feats

I haven't read these books in a while; is it possible that Tarquin likewise learned these maneuvers via these feats?

Mass Cure Moderate Wounds is a 6th level spell, bards have to be at least level 16 to have it, and Elan has a level in Dashing Swordsman on top. Is Elan level 17?

Either that, or the Dashing Swordsman prestige class adds to bard spellcasting, or to arcane spellcasting in general.

[Beni-Kujaku]

So, do we have :

Calder, Old+ Red Dragon (Gargantuan), Mindbender 2+ (Push the Weak Mind) ?

[RMS Oceanic]

added Mass Cure Moderate Wounds.
and others, changed the skills from #1268 ("No Skill Point") to zero.
removed IBR, Knockback feats.
added Ballista Throw, Counter Charge, Disrupting Blow; removed IUS, Stunning Fist.
added Crushing Weight of the Mountain.


I haven't read these books in a while; is it possible that Tarquin likewise learned these maneuvers via these feats?


Either that, or the Dashing Swordsman prestige class adds to bard spellcasting, or to arcane spellcasting in general.

Unless we get confirmation the Dashing Swordsman advances spellcasting I wouldn't use the possibility to discount advancement in Bard, because that risks a slippery slope where unstated homebrew can explain every deviation. We already have previous evidence of Elan choosing to continue his Bard levels rather than only Dashing Swordsman, so I think that's reasonable to peg as Bard 16 unless other evidence emerges.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Unless we get confirmation the Dashing Swordsman advances spellcasting I wouldn't use the possibility to discount advancement in Bard, because that risks a slippery slope where unstated homebrew can explain every deviation. We already have previous evidence of Elan choosing to continue his Bard levels rather than only Dashing Swordsman, so I think that's reasonable to peg as Bard 16 unless other evidence emerges.

From 647, "I decided to take a bard level instead of the next level of dashing swordsman" implies that the next level in question does not improve spellcasting. It could be that the first level of Dashing Swordsman improves casting, but the next does not, but it would be slightly weird. I concur that, until confirmation either way, we should assume Dashing Swordsman does not improve spellcasting at all.

[Metastachydium]

At any rate, he can't possibly be Bard 14+/Dashing Swordsman 1+ as listed, because that doesn't add up to the required 16+ however we may look at it.

[Tubercular Ox]

I haven't read these books in a while; is it possible that Tarquin likewise learned these maneuvers via these feats?

Yes. They're even fighter bonus feats, but you can only take it 3 times, and Tarquin has rough competition for this.

Ballista Throw, wherein you spin like a top and launch someone like a ballista bolt, is a Level 6 maneuver, meaning a Level 11 initiator level, and Swordsage only, which requires you be level 22 to learn it if you're avoiding any Swordsage levels at all. It requires two other Setting Sun maneuvers as prerequisites, so there's your three feats right there.

Crushing Weight of the Mountain is a Stone Dragon Stance, and the Martial Stance feat requires Tarquin know one Stone Dragon maneuver before taking it to learn Crushing Weight of the Mountain. That's your fourth, illegal Martial Study.

Everything he does is so much easier with levels in Swordsage.

[Unoriginal]

added Crushing Weight of the Mountain.

Crushing Weight of the Mountain let the user damage their grappled foe pretty significantly.

Durkon was pretty confident that Malack *couldn't* hurt him, just immobilize him. And didn't stop thinking that until Malack demonstrated he could dispel the Dwarf's protection against his vampiric abilities.

Malack also does not attempt to crush anyone in his final moments, even when he was desperate to at least do a take-you-with-me and what was left of the Linear Guild would have been easier to grapple than Durkon was during their fight.

I don't see any conclusive evidence that the training Malack mentions having includes Crushing Weight of the Mountain.

[InvisibleBison]

So, do we have :

Calder, Old+ Red Dragon (Gargantuan), Mindbender 2+ (Push the Weak Mind) ?

I'm not convinced that Serini's remark is sufficient evidence to list Calder as having levels in Mindbender, since she isn't explicitly saying he has levels in the class. However, even if we ignore that, I don't see how there's any grounds for assigning him any specific number of levels in mindbender, since he doesn't do anything that requires a specific mindbender ability (other than telepathy, but that's a 1st level ability).

From 647, "I decided to take a bard level instead of the next level of dashing swordsman" implies that the next level in question does not improve spellcasting. It could be that the first level of Dashing Swordsman improves casting, but the next does not, but it would be slightly weird. I concur that, until confirmation either way, we should assume Dashing Swordsman does not improve spellcasting at all.

It's pretty common for prestige classes to only advance spellcasting at some levels. Since Dashing Swordsman is a more martially-focused class, I think it being a partial casting prestige class would fit in with how other martially-focused caster prestige classes work. On the other hand, that may be too speculative for this thread.

[Doug Lampert]

It's pretty common for prestige classes to only advance spellcasting at some levels. Since Dashing Swordsman is a more martially-focused class, I think it being a partial casting prestige class would fit in with how other martially-focused caster prestige classes work. On the other hand, that may be too speculative for this thread.

The rule of thumb, as I understand it, is that we only put in abilities/levels that we can pretty definitively state are possessed or demonstrated. Hence the perennial argument over X being listed as Sorcerer 21+, it's overwhelmingly likely that he's intended to be higher level than that, but he COULD do everything seen at level 21 with the right build/items.

Similarly, Dashing Swordsman level 1 COULD advance bard casting and Dashing Swordsman 2 not do so, and that explains everything observed.

I'd say Bard 15+, Dashing Swordsman 1+, (bard caster level 16+) pretty well covers what we know he has.

I personally think that he's bard 16+, dashing swordsman 1+, and that Haley, Elan, and Belkar are all now level 17, but there's nothing in the rules that says Dashing Swordsman can't advance casting at level 1 (the actual abilities of Dashing Swordsmen being unknown except possibly to Rich), so I would not say that Bard 16+ is clearly demonstrated in the comic.

[Tubercular Ox]

Crushing Weight of the Mountain let the user damage their grappled foe pretty significantly.

Durkon was pretty confident that Malack *couldn't* hurt him, just immobilize him. And didn't stop thinking that until Malack demonstrated he could dispel the Dwarf's protection against his vampiric abilities.

Malack also does not attempt to crush anyone in his final moments, even when he was desperate to at least do a take-you-with-me and what was left of the Linear Guild would have been easier to grapple than Durkon was during their fight.

I don't see any conclusive evidence that the training Malack mentions having includes Crushing Weight of the Mountain.

I'm confused on several points.

1. How did you calculate how much damage the constrict was doing?

2. How did you calculate how many rounds it took to kill Durkon?

3. Durkon was wrong about the grapple. Malack could deal damage to him regardless of whether he was using a fancy maneuver or not. What is the difference between Durkon being wrong about a grapple using core rules vs. being wrong about a grapple using Tome of Battle rules? Why should I prefer the former just because Durkon was wrong?

[RMS Oceanic]

The rule of thumb, as I understand it, is that we only put in abilities/levels that we can pretty definitively state are possessed or demonstrated. Hence the perennial argument over X being listed as Sorcerer 21+, it's overwhelmingly likely that he's intended to be higher level than that, but he COULD do everything seen at level 21 with the right build/items.

Similarly, Dashing Swordsman level 1 COULD advance bard casting and Dashing Swordsman 2 not do so, and that explains everything observed.

I'd say Bard 15+, Dashing Swordsman 1+, (bard caster level 16+) pretty well covers what we know he has.

I personally think that he's bard 16+, dashing swordsman 1+, and that Haley, Elan, and Belkar are all now level 17, but there's nothing in the rules that says Dashing Swordsman can't advance casting at level 1 (the actual abilities of Dashing Swordsmen being unknown except possibly to Rich), so I would not say that Bard 16+ is clearly demonstrated in the comic.

The difference between Xykon's caster level and this situation is Xykon's alternate explanations are using actual feats or abilities which just happen to not be in the SRD, like Sudden Maximize. Dashing Swordsman is a homebrewed class whose features haven't been (and likely won't be) fully revealed to us, and I think assuming it grants abilities not explicitly stated sort of allows you to explain away anything if taken to its logical conclusion.

[Unoriginal]

I'm confused on several points.

1. How did you calculate how much damage the constrict was doing?

Reading the comic page, none of the usual indicators that someone is taking damage are present.

No wounds appearing on Durkon, no sound effects related to the type of damage or similar method used, nothing.

Furthermore, Malack does not contradict Durkon's assertion that they're both stuck in place without being able to act, and in fact confirms it by saying:

"Normally, I would simply hold you until [the ward spell] expired, but the proximity of your allies make that infeasible."

2. How did you calculate how many rounds it took to kill Durkon?

No idea what you mean here. I've never even implied I calculated that.

3. Durkon was wrong about the grapple. Malack could deal damage to him regardless of whether he was using a fancy maneuver or not.

3.5 Grapple rules state the vampire could have dealt unarmed strike non-lethal damage to the dwarf.

The fact that he admits that if he didn't have the dispelling backdoor in the spell, his other option in such a situation would have been to wait for the spell to run out indicates that he didn't think he could subdue Durkon by doing unarmed strike non-lethal damages.

What is the difference between Durkon being wrong about a grapple using core rules vs. being wrong about a grapple using Tome of Battle rules? Why should I prefer the former just because Durkon was wrong?

The difference is that Malack is smart, wise, well-trained, including SPECIFICALLY in grappling, and with a ton of practical experience, and he agrees with Durkon's assertion about grappling.

[Tubercular Ox]

Okay, so, I disagree. I see exactly what should be there for Rich showing off that he found a legit way to give Malack a constrict attack, that develops Malack's relationship with Tarquin, and hints that Tarquin is a swordsage. And he chose to do it in a way that doesn't unduly interfere with the plot.

With those objectives achieved, what should he have done differently?

EDIT: Also, Malack is wrong about grapples, too, despite his expertise. He can totally choke out Durkon with or without any fancy maneuvers. So same question: Why should Malack being wrong about grapples favor a flavorless solution over the one that accomplishes the objectives listed above?

[Unoriginal]

Okay, so, I disagree. I see exactly what should be there for Rich showing off that he found a legit way to give Malack a constrict attack, that develops Malack's relationship with Tarquin, and hints that Tarquin is a swordsage. And he chose to do it in a way that doesn't unduly interfere with the plot.

With those objectives achieved, what should he have done differently?

Attributing objectives to the author is not a piece of evidence.

Let's take a step back, and examine the sequence of events:

Step 1: Malack casts a spell that boosts his STR and BAB.
Step 2: Malack avoids an hammer strike.
Step 3: Malack grapples Durkon and disarm him successfully, stating he got training to make grappling more efficient, and that Durkon won't be able to get out of the hold.
Step 4: Durkon, still struggling to escape, tells Malack that neither of them can hurt each other now. Malack agrees the assertion would be correct, if not for his trump card.
Step 5: Malack demonstrates his trump card by dispelling Durkon's warding.

Do you disagree with this description of the events?

EDIT: Also, Malack is wrong about grapples, too, despite his expertise. He can totally choke out Durkon with or without any fancy maneuvers. So same question: Why should Malack being wrong about grapples favor a flavorless solution over the one that accomplishes the objectives listed above?

Because anyone with Crushing Weight of the Mountain, who is currently using Crushing Weight of the Mountain, would not be wrong about this.

Since Crushing Weight of the Mountain exist specifically to make "I'm grappling and can't hurt the other guy" something that won't happen.

[Tubercular Ox]

Because anyone with Crushing Weight of the Mountain, who is currently using Crushing Weight of the Mountain, would not be wrong about this.

Since Crushing Weight of the Mountain exist specifically to make "I'm grappling and can't hurt the other guy" something that won't happen.

I disagree strongly with this one. You have no idea what criteria Malack is using to decide his actions, nor how he picks his dialog, and therefore no idea what Malack would say if he could constrict the life out of Durkon but preferred to drain his blood instead.

Since we're imagining things, maybe killing Durkon with the Constrict is a loss for Malack because Malack has already made the decision to drain him. Hence Malack's strategy, without a way to dispel the ward, was as he said: to hold Durkon until the ward faded, and then drain him.

Malack is visibly constricting Durkon. I don't see enough information to conclude that the damage Constrict can do matters to anyone involved. Durkon doesn't know, Malack doesn't care, and Rich got his visual.

[Unoriginal]

I disagree strongly with this one. You have no idea what criteria Malack is using to decide his actions, nor how he picks his dialog, and therefore no idea what Malack would say if he could constrict the life out of Durkon but preferred to drain his blood instead.

Since we're imagining things, maybe killing Durkon with the Constrict is a loss for Malack because Malack has already made the decision to drain him. Hence Malack's strategy, without a way to dispel the ward, was as he said: to hold Durkon until the ward faded, and then drain him.

Malack is visibly constricting Durkon. I don't see enough information to conclude that the damage Constrict can do matters to anyone involved. Durkon doesn't know, Malack doesn't care, and Rich got his visual.

So your argument is that Malack is constricting Durkon, and that the constrict must be the result of him using Crushing Weight of the Mountain, no possible alternatives?

[Gurgeh]

I disagree strongly with this one. You have no idea what criteria Malack is using to decide his actions, nor how he picks his dialog, and therefore no idea what Malack would say if he could constrict the life out of Durkon but preferred to drain his blood instead.

It seems very odd to assert that Malack has an ability and point to a scene where he does not use it as evidence for it.