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2024-02-20, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
On the one hand, sure, Rich feels free to ignore or simply not look up D&D rules when he doesn't feel like it. On the other hand, we know he has meticulously planned some of these story beats years or even decades ahead of time.
*Spoiler* - I'm not The Giant, so I'm just guessing, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was already thinking about the beats of this specific fight all the way back in Blood Runs in the Family. Not the panel-by-panel details, but something like "The Allosaur 'bite into a grapple' is kinda neat, what if the party needed a way to bring the dragon down to the ground? That would be awesome, but it'd look dumb if the dragon is way bigger, so I'll make them about the same size."Last edited by Crusher; 2024-02-20 at 01:56 PM.
"You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan
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2024-02-20, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Thank you -- I just thought it was excessively implausible, but knowing there's also precedent is even better. (^_~)
Edit, to add:
The Giant's planning reminds me of a scene decades ago from a favorite author -- one of the group has the Warstone (ring), which flames to life with the power to bind/summon that which will be needed. Often well beforehand, so that it seems nonsensical or even horrible to the wielder who doesn't know why. In the last example of the series, it tries to force her to summon a giant crystal dragon away from the ancestral home of the people it protects, and she refuses.
Guess what monster shows up in the final battle between Darkness and Light, with no countermatch (thus no evident way to keep it from simply burning the army of Light to death from the air) because of her refusal.Last edited by arimareiji; 2024-02-20 at 02:45 PM.
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2024-02-20, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
It's been commented on before, but I clicked the quote button so...
In an AMF the greatsword does bog standard greatsword damage. Calder's claws naturally do the same base damage (or more) already, and he's proficient in their use. Also, I might argue against strength damage if holding an improvised weapon in an awkward manner like that as well (so likely less damage than he'd just do using his claws like normal). That doesn't preclude Rich having it stick into Bloodfeast anyway, because it's cool, but realistically that's not going to do a whole lot of damage.
Several comments made about the suggestion/dominate/whatever (not just yours). First. My assumption is that Calder can't actually use the ability while in the AMF, but can continue to issue commands to someone he's already dominated. And also, I'm assuming he probably can't issue mental commands while in the AMF, so having his throat constricted will be an issue for him.
As you say, he presumably knows how his own abilities work, and having Sunny point the AMF at him would be a potentially terminally dumb move if he didn't know that he could tell Sunny to change targets later while inside the AMF.
Additionally, I made note while reading that Calder used some very specific wording. He told Sunny to point the AMF at him, knowing that this would put those near him in the AMF along its cone effect inside the area as well. He very specifically did not say "point your eye at the wizard". I don't think that wording was accidental. Sunny isn't going to get a new save against pointing his powerful anti-magic eyeball at the evil red dragon. He will get one if he's told to point it at his friends and allies. Also, it effectively allows Calder to control where the AMF goes by simply moving relative to Sunny. So... very clever and deliberate instructions by Calder, and very good writing on Rich's part to include that little detail.
Agree on the "I don't think Sunny has a death ray". As mentioned previously, Sunny has desintigrate, which he seems to be hesitant to use on living beings. Agree that Calder is very much aware of what sorts of command he can safely issue to maximize the odds that he retains control of Sunny.
Yeah. Which is kinda typical for Dragon fights. It's why "bring him to the ground" (or find a way to get into melee range in general) is often the best tactic against dragons (well, best available to most adventuring groups anyway).
Dragons do get a boatload of melee attacks though, so that's not always super easy. But yes, at a certain level (which, of course, varries based on how powerful the dragon is), a group of adventurer's whaling on the dragon will just plain out damage him, and defeat becomes inevitable. Dragons are very very effective just kinda landing in amongst crowds of "normal" level opponents, or even more powerful opponents if they've been damaged (and survived) their breath attack. But against a high enough level group, they must stay out of melee range.
As usual, Roy's making good tactical decisions for the team.
And perhaps less usually, Belkar is right there on the same page! Then again, Belkar's been itching to do this for like... forever, so this is more of a case of a broken clock being accurate twice a day.Last edited by gbaji; 2024-02-20 at 02:55 PM.
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2024-02-20, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Headcanon: Bloodfeast isn't trying to hurt Calder, he's just freaking out from being thrown and grabbing onto the most solid thing in front of him.
I like the one before it better, but it [I]is/I] pretty fun when someone gets under Belkar's skin.
You don't need to be a rogue to sneak attack.
Remember Tarquin's brontosaurus?
I, um.
I think there might be a bigger conflict in the.
In the last book of the entire series.
Just a hunch.
You're right, but overlooking a crucial piece of information:
Numbers are fun.
I call this section "At least I'm kinda using my biology degree".
There's more to taxonomy than number of limbs, Kantaki.
These days, taxonomy is mostly cladistic. That is to say, birds are birds because they're all descended from a shared common ancestor whose descendants are all birds. But that doesn't work in a fantasy world young enough that a black dragon's family tree only includes a quarter of all black dragons.
Insect wings aren't limbs. There are a few theories on how insect wings derived, but none of them assume wings are homologous with legs (or any appendage that grows the same way, e.g. antennae or mouthparts).
All birds are dinosaurs, not all dinosaurs are birds. That's like calling a wolf a giant rodent.
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2024-02-20, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
That's for the Fly spell. I'm not convinced that the rules carry over directly. For example, it doesn't make a great deal of sense for the "quadruped bonus" for carrying heavy loads to carry over to the load capacity for a flier.
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2024-02-20, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
The expression on his face while he's being thrown would suggest otherwise.
Would it really be cool? It feels like it'd undercut the dramatic moment. Obviously there's still space here for Calder to fight back and we shouldn't assume that this is the end of the fight, but having Bloodfeast's big epic return to form (literally) interrupted by impaling himself on Roy's greatsword feels a bit like having stuff happen just for the sake of it.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2024-02-20, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
There's plenty of fliers with "quadruped-grade carrying capacity" even if it shouldn't make sense. Sometimes even creatures that are technically bipedal get quadruped-level carrying capacity as flyers.
Take the giant eagle- a Str 18 Large creature:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagleGiant.htm
Light load - 300 pounds.
According to this table, Large quadrupeds get 3x the carrying capacity of Medium bipeds:
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingC...mbrancebyArmor
so - with a Medium Str 18 biped carrying 100 pounds as a light load, this indicates that the Giant Eagle has quadruped-grade carrying power.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2024-02-20, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
I'm sure Rich could make it cool, if he wanted to. Calder and Bloodfeast struggle while grappled for a few panels (or even pages) while the rest of the Order gets positioned, maybe gets Minra into position to cast on Sunny, etc. Then Calder says something clever like "Ah, you are a powerful beast, but I have intelligence and can make use of tools if I choose", followed by him making a big show of stabbling Bloodfeat with the greatsword (still in his claw), and Bloodfeast reacting by letting go long enough for Calder to escape his grasp and fly up a bit, causing Bloodfeast to fall out of the AMF and revert back to a lizard.
If it's used at all, it'll be less about damage done, and more about shock effect/whatever to change things a bit. Doesn't have to make sense from a rule pov, but makes for a dramatic use and effect in the scene, so it works.
I agree that it will not be "We cut to the next panel. Bloodfeast falls away from Calder, and we see Roy's greatsword sticking out of his chest, where he impaled himself on it. Queue Belkar screaming 'nooo. not Bloodfeast! He's too cool to die!'". I mean, I could see some writers doing that, but the set up just isn't right for it here. This scene is about turning the tables on Calder in a cool/interesting way and giving the Order breathing room to plan their attack.
I also don't think the scene will just be Bloodfeast holding on and biting down on Calder's neck until he dies, either. For much the same reason. This is a huge fight with a dragon. It's going to have a few twists and turns in it.
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2024-02-20, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
We see V falling away from Calder and Bloodfeast. I think that implies that Calder is not falling yet. Of course, it may just be a cool splash panel. OTOH, Belkar said he was going to bring Calder down to the ground by throwing Bloodfeast. OTO,OH, Belkar is not smart enough to know how much weight a dragon can carry and still fly in units of allosauri.
If Calder can remain airborne he is going to focus all the attacks an angry dragon can make on Bloodfeast. I predict Bloodfeast can't take too much of that before letting go. He may be about the same size but he doesn't have a dragon's multiple attacks, AC, or HP.
If Calder comes down to ground level this is going to be a beat-down.This ... is my signature finishing move!
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2024-02-20, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-20, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
It is some time from when I dealt with 3.5 seriously but If I remember correctly while dragon are too large to fly without magic being involved it is not considered "magic" as spells are. I don't remember if they are considered 'supernatural' or just hand waved, but imagine it as golems or vampires. They exist literally because of magic, but a golem doesn't turn into a pile of raw materials if it enters into an antimagic field, and a vampire don't turn into a corpse. In the same way, a dragon can still fly, even if it makes little sense (see also the fight between Varsavius and that black dragon on the island. She cast Antimagic Shell and still could fly)
I don't make the crazy rules, I just twist them to my purpose
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If you ever happen to doubt the Giant again remember the "Ghost-martyrs of the Sapphire guard
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2024-02-20, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
So something that hasn't been mentioned yet; Allosaurus is a Monster in MM2 and it's a 10 HD Huge animal by default. There are advancement rules and the Allosaurus can be "advanced " to Gargantuan by default at HD 21+. Bloodfeast also looks to be around 30~40ft in most scenes long putting him right on that size boarder. 21 HD Gargantuan Dinosaur seems kind of crazy, but its only a CR 10~11 creature by RAW and Tarquin did mention he had a dinosaur training program to make more powerful monsters.
Also Caldar is a Dragon with 8th level spells and looks OLD. Whats more likely? A dragon looking too old for their actual age with a pile of sorcerer levels tacked on, or a specially bred and trained dinosaur being more dangerous than it's stat floor?
Finally if we want to be really geeky here; The default Allosaurus would have to roll a 20 (With bite, let alone secondary attacks) to hit the base Mature Adult Red Dragon. Our level 21 Dino would only need like 16 to hit an Ancient Red Dragon. Dino damage also scales faster than dragon HP due to crossing a size threshold. So Weirdly enough the advanced Allosaurus does better vs an older dragon that the base one against a younger.
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2024-02-20, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-20, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
IMO Calder doesn't look that old, based on the size and the damage his attacks leave.
He did at least once.
FREEDOM!
Based on his comment that he could just stand here and hurl spells at Varsuuvius even with his mental domination spells being out of the equation, if that didn't leave him vulnerable to the other combatants, it seems much more likely to me he is a Mature Adult Red Dragon with additional Sorcerer levels.Last edited by Unoriginal; 2024-02-20 at 07:58 PM.
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2024-02-20, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
I was just thinking that it'd be cool if Belkar and Blood feast have fun with disengaging, shrinking, then being thrown out again to grow and attack a couple more times.
Although that lead me to imagine Caldor eating teeny blood feast to stop it, which lead me to wonder - if Caldor did eat little Blood feast and had the anti magic ray put on him, would Blood feast be blocked, or would we have a second dragon explode from the inside out?
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2024-02-20, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-20, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
What's the maximum flying weight of a red dragon? The T-Rex is adding somewhere between 11,000 and 16,000 pounds. My guess for first panel of next chapter: both of them are coming crashing down. 🐲🦖
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2024-02-20, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2024-02-20, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
We don't know that he is, we just know that has been a single instant (a.k.a frame) where Bloodfeast is grappling Calder before they hit the ground.
Dinosaur literally means "dire lizard"
As far as we know, Bloodfeast has never been a wild animal (we was tame when Belkar turned him), so I don't think we need to worry about him becoming one due to anti-magic.
I'm slightly upset at Elan for quibbling rather than playing a sweet metal riff.
They have an AC of 21; the base attack bonuses alone should be enough
I'm pretty sure it's a conical field affects space itself and doesn't need to "pernitrate" the dragon anymore that it needs to penetrate empty air.The thing is the Azurites don't use a single color; they use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit, as long as it's blue.
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2024-02-20, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
And "comic" literally means "revel," but that doesn't mean OotS is a rave.
Or perhaps more relevantly for a taxonomy claim, carnivoran literally means carnivore, but the clade includes plenty of omnivores, some of which eat far more plants than meat. And then there are the giant and red pandas, both carnivorans, both herbivorous.
They have an AC of 21; the base attack bonuses alone should be enough
I'm pretty sure it's a conical field affects space itself and doesn't need to "pernitrate" the dragon anymore that it needs to penetrate empty air.
I'm not a coffee drinker, but from what I hear, a cool coffee would be unpleasant to drink.
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2024-02-20, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-20, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
He could be a mature adult, which have AC 32. I don’t think anyone besides Roy can hit that after their first attack without a nat 20, without magical bonuses.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2024-02-20, 11:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
I can not speak for other players, but for me it is a fun metal exercise. It is also a way to keep the rules in mind as I plan a new campaign. Probably not in 3.5 but a lot of the rules are sort of timeless anyways. I knew the giant would never let the rules get in the way of the story, and as a forever D/GM the rules barley matter for the game. Well at least until they do.
I don't think you meant for what you said to come off as a put down; it is most likely chalked up to my troubles with the English language, but what you said hurt my feelings. Like we are wasting our time with our fun little game. Like when people tease me for still playing Pokémon or even playing dungeons and dragons. It reminds me of the Simpsons where Marge calls Liza chucky with out thinking or meaning anything malice by it, but it gets into the head and eats away.I should get a Signature
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2024-02-20, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
He could just cast protection from energy. Also, Rich is the DM, so whatever he puts in the comic is by the book, regardless. Rule zero is in the book.
The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good. Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears.
Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field.
I don't understand why people talk about the rules text as if it's some sort of lost knowledge that only the ancients understood. You can just look it up.Last edited by gatorized; 2024-02-20 at 11:37 PM.
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2024-02-20, 11:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
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2024-02-20, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
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Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2024-02-20, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
The saga of Belkar's quest to unleash Bloodfeast reminds me of that one time I had this really cool strategy (read: wholly impractical example of gamer insanity) that I kept wanting to make work but the DM kept handing me situations that were just a little bit off from what I needed for it.
And that other time... and that other one... and... look, I've been gaming for 30 years now, I'm probably forgetting more than I'm remembering.
At least Belkar actually managed to make his dream strategy work.I'm not an evil GM! Honest!
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2024-02-20, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
If it's an old red dragon, it's gargantuan and has 35 strength. By the table, that should give it somewhere around 1000 lbs carrying capacity, x8 for gargantuan, so 8,000 lbs medium load. Heavy load works out to ~14,400 lbs. The weight of a T-rex in the rules is given as 6 tons, or 12,000 lbs. So it should have its fly speed reduced, but should be able to stay aloft. Of course the DM might call for a check to see if it stops maintaining flight due to the attack.
Obviously, these numbers are all based on the assumption that it has the Old age category, they'll adjust up or down if that's wrong.Last edited by gatorized; 2024-02-20 at 11:52 PM.
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2024-02-21, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
I wonder if the point isn't that the dragon has the sword, but that Roy doesn't have it.
I'm not sure that Calder looks old, and Serini has already called him a mind bender (which is a prestige class that adds spell levels), so I think that is more likely.
In addition, if he were old or ancient would put him out of the Order's league. A younger dragon with extra caster levels could be an appropriate CR for the Order.
The other point is that Calder's breath weapons don't seem to have done as much damage as one might expect if her were older.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2024-02-21 at 12:28 AM.
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2024-02-21, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
The author has already done coffee breaks. Twice. I loved them, and I have been waiting for another one ever since.
Roy - We know the comic has been getting intense, lately, and our audience has aged quite a bit over the last two decades, so today we're going to take it down a notch.
Belkar - He's saying that some of you should be taking the Test of the Heart before we get blamed when you die laughing.
Haley - Shhhh!
Roy - We've sent Elan over to the forums to comb through the posts there for the latest conspiracy theories. Elan, what have you found?
Elan - Thank you, Roy. Haley, you look pretty today!
Haley - Thank you, Honey. Now, focus! You have someone with you?
Elan - Oh, yeah. This poster goes by the handle, Legustrum Vulgare. Mister Legistrum, may I call you Gus?
Mr. Legustrum - No.
Elan: Do you know of any conspiracy theories?
Mr. Legustrum - Please. I invented two myself, last week.Last edited by brian 333; 2024-02-21 at 12:29 AM.