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Thread: Counterspelled Booming Blade
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2024-03-22, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Time constraints. The early 5e team was just trying to crank stuff out, not make the game flawless.
Chris Perkins said this about the classes:
“ Speaking frankly, [and] this is my own personal opinion, 12 classes is actually a lot," Perkins tells us. "If I were redesigning, if I could go back to 2012 to when we were talking about Fifth Edition for the first time, I would probably put a strong case forward that we could actually do with less classes in the core game. You know, keep the choices simple. Because when you're asking somebody to choose between a Sorcerer and a Wizard, to the untrained eye, it's not clear what the difference is until you start to drill down and you realize where they get their power from and how their spell-casting works. When you look at it superficially, they seem pretty much the same. And you know, what is the difference between a Barbarian and a Fighter? A Barbarian could almost be a subclass [for a] Fighter if we were designing this game from scratch."
https://www.gamesradar.com/dandd-dev...sses-not-more/
5e is literally a bunch of rules inspired by play throughs of prior editions, slapped together in record time, with very little support or expectations of success.
Spells, do mostly do, what they say they do…but not all the time.
Historically, spell casting on other planes, or even Underwater for example caused changes. 1e had different ranges for spells depending one wether the spell was cast together outside or inside a building.
I’ve said more than my fill on this topic. I think the space exists for more viewpoints than RAW Uber Alles, and I for one am going to represent that belief in my posts.Last edited by Blatant Beast; 2024-03-22 at 07:24 PM.
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2024-03-22, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
The playtest sorcerer had its own special unique mechanic (Willpower) which - as you spent more of it on spells/abilities it gave you passive buffs until your next long rest. It was a mechanic that we see nowhere else in the edition, and was dropped from the actual printed sorcerer.
Seems kinda lame that his reflection is "we should've got rid of sorcerer and barbarian" (and probably some other classes too) instead of "we should have done a better job at making them unique in playstyle so they stood as distinct entities in their own right."
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2024-03-22, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2024-03-22, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2024-03-22, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
My personal dislike of sorcerer as a concept leaves me irrevocably biased.
My sig is something witty.
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2024-03-22, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
This is an unfortunate consequence of simple 5e removing DR and having armour just contribute to miss chance. A more complicated edition would separate these things allowing for more agency through tactics, but this would have a compounding effect on other features that are built around the simple AC system that would also need changing to adjust.
The case is that 5e doesn't have the scaffolding to support this sort of complexity. It could be built, but that is a weighty task best suited to developers who have the time and motivation to do so and get paid for it. There are other systems out there, and maybe one day a 6e will be developed (despite the current WotC crew stating otherwise) to take advantages of things like smart apps to take on the burden of complexity without taking away from the grandeur of tabletop play.
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2024-03-23, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
I don't mind those classes being in the game, IF THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THEM AND OTHER CLASSES (that goes for everyone else, too). Sorcerer as it is now (and always was) is too similar to a wizad. Make the different: have them use spell points instead of the good old boring spell slots is the bare minimum. Ideally, lean into the fact they are not studying the same magic, they are born with supernatural powers and they never heard about spell components in their entire live. Something like 3.5 warlock or PF1 kineticist would be great... you're blaster, you're based on throwing raw magical energy around and shaping it to a different forms. Elemental blasts, breath weapons, offensive telekinesis, smashing your enemies with fists wrapped in magical energy... add physical changes like growing wings, natural weapons and similar abilities related to their source of power, and we're talking.
Barbarian? Fighter is the "mundane" warrior, barbarian is the one who gets supernatural powers, a melee focused sorcerer in a way. Rage as just a few numeric boosts boring, but hulking out to grow in size, turn into a monster, have a bunch of ancestral spirits assist you in combat? Now the barbarian has a reason to exist as something other than a fighter's subclass.It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2024-03-23, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
(italics mine)
Huh?
The passage pretty clearly reads "in most cases, all in the span of seconds" (as in: most spells have a casting time of an action or less), not "unleash the desired effect in most cases" (as in: occasionally spells don't do what you want them to do).
Reading forward in the thread, I see this has been pointed out already. I don't actually disagree with your conclusion (RAW is only a good concept insofar as it's useful, and in its capacity as a source of endless internet acrimony it certainly is not that), I'm just confused how you got that from this passage, especially by citing the hyphen that seems to me like it does the opposite of what you say it does.
Which, ironically, backs up the point. If people can have conflicting reads of the same text, how can RAW be authoritative?
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2024-03-23, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Agreed, and that thinking worries me for when we actually get 6e. But who knows, 10 years from now people might be ready for some consolidation.
By talking with their players, only sitting down to play with people who care about their own happiness as well, and ultimately, having a backbone.
No?
It's not meaningless. The text is the common starting point we all share. We just need to recognize that it is in fact a starting point.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-03-23, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
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2024-03-25, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
You are reading that wrong. What it says is not that the spells unleash the desired effect in most cases. It says that spells unleash the desired effect, and that in most cases that desired effect is released in the span of seconds. The exception clearly being longer casting time spells, rituals, stuff like that.
ETA - IOW, what Dalinar said.Last edited by Darth Credence; 2024-03-25 at 10:23 AM.
Campaigning in my home brewed world for the since spring of 2020 - started a campaign journal to keep track of what is going on a few levels in. It starts here: https://www.worldanvil.com/w/the-ter...report-article
Created an interactive character sheet for sidekicks on Google Sheets - automatic calculations, drop down menus for sidekick type, hopefully everything necessary to run a sidekick: https://tinyurl.com/y6rnyuyc
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2024-03-25, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Concur.
Sorcerer as it is now (and always was) is too similar to a wizard.
Make the different: have them use spell points instead of the good old boring spell slots is the bare minimum. Ideally, lean into the fact they are not studying the same magic, they are born with supernatural powers and they never heard about spell components in their entire live. Something like 3.5 warlock or PF1 kineticist would be great... you're blaster, you're based on throwing raw magical energy around and shaping it to a different forms. Elemental blasts, breath weapons, offensive telekinesis, smashing your enemies with fists wrapped in magical energy... add physical changes like growing wings, natural weapons and similar abilities related to their source of power, and we're talking.
Barbarian? Fighter is the "mundane" warrior, barbarian is the one who gets supernatural powers, a melee focused sorcerer in a way. Rage as just a few numeric boosts boring, but hulking out to grow in size, turn into a monster, have a bunch of ancestral spirits assist you in combat? Now the barbarian has a reason to exist as something other than a fighter's subclass.
Or, the Barbarian is a 1/3 druid caster as a counterpoint to EK.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2024-03-25 at 01:47 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-03-25, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Even if I agreed that sorcerer and wizard are too similar... I'd rather add differences to them like they did with
Sorcerous RageInnate Sorcery, than recombine them into one being a subclass of the other. Same with Cleric/Druid and Fighter/Barbarian.
I would be totally fine with a Barbarian 1/3 caster subclass (sorcerer or druid).Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-03-25, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Agreed completely.
I tended to envision something like:
Rogue (Skill Focused, Sneak Attack/Ambusher)
Fighter (Weapon Master, tactical warrior)
Barbarian (Rager, physical behemoth)
Monk (Unarmed expert, Ki Master)
Paladin (Martial/Cleric Half Caster, Auras)
Ranger (Martial/Druid Half Caster, Terrain/Foe Expertise)
Artificer (Martial/Wizard Half Caster, Magic Item/Crafting Expertise)
Druid (Primal short rest caster, potential shapeshifting mastery)
Warlock (Arcane short rest caster, choice of martial/caster potential)
Bard (Jack of all trades full caster, more support/skill abilities)
Cleric (Divine long rest full caster, empowered by their deity)
Sorcerer (Arcane spell point, long rest full caster, major subclass focus with different bloodlines having a larger than normal impact on abilities)
Wizard (Arcane full caster, spellbook, magical expert)
And then have some subclasses that can provide psuedo mixes. Eldritch Knight (Fighter/Wizard), Draconic (Sorcerer/Monk), Bladesinger (Wizard/Fighter), Brawler (Monk/Barbarian) etc...
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2024-03-26, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
While you are certainly free to run your table as you see fit, this approach causes a major problem: it divides problems into "magic problems" and "non-magic problems". Casters can contribute to solving both types of problems (and they already have superior tools to solve most problems). But if "the only solution to magic problems is other magic", then martials just don't get to contribute any time magic problems come up.
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2024-03-26, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
There is no misrepresentation, it is a cut and past from a PDF of the PHB, 10th printing.
Any dispute regarding an interpretation based off a sole punctuation mark, no less an ambiguous Em dash, is not something that can be characterized as ‘clear’, and one better have more supporting evidence.
It is a lot easier to sound authoritative, when you have the gods on your side, and are right, and righteous! 😉
The game is better, if you allow stuff, and skills, and Martials, and people do things and interact with the situation, and the environment, through means other than spells.
You are free to disagree, but Baldur’s Gate 3 says hello.
As I stated previously, the conversational requirement of RAW Only, has been dominate for 10 years, and frankly RAW conversation has been exhausted, and become extremely repetitive.
I would love some practical conversations about D&D.
RAW is soulless.Last edited by Blatant Beast; 2024-03-26 at 06:53 PM.
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2024-03-26, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2024-03-26 at 07:25 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-03-26, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Yeah, but like - the vast majority of the world's physics are non-magic, so it's trivial to have challenges that entail both if your players are bringing both. When Doctor Strange is having a wizard duel against Ebony Maw, the rest of the Avengers aren't standing around playing Scrabble, they're fighting off Cull Obsidian and Corvus Glaive. When Scarlet Witch is busy with a ritual to destroy the Mind Stone, Captain America and Hawkeye are keeping the enemy from reaching her. And even when the caster is faced with a "non-magic problem" - the opportunity cost of them solving it with their magic is often much, much higher than simply letting the martial take care of it. Sure a wizard can spam Knock and free all the prisoners on the cellblock, but the party's chances of fighting the guards will be much higher if they simply let the rogue do it and save their spell slots to fight their way out.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-03-26, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Wanna try the homebrew system me and my friends play? It was developed by a friend of mine and all you need to play is found here
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2024-03-26, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
Sabian Skellegue, the Unyielding Wrath
IC OOC
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Aelki Ruasha, Void Knight of the Star Ocean
IC OOC MAP
Chult Hex Crawl
Ondros, Mazewalker of Ubtao
IC OOC Slide Deck
Retired Characters
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2024-03-27, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
It should be noted that sithlordnergal is following 5e rules that magic works as stated, nothing more, nothing less. So, Wall of Fire is not spread by mundane means, is not put out by mundane means.
5e sacrificed verisimilitude for quick and simple play - it is not a flaw, it is a feature. Changing 5th edition to Slipjig edition is fine - that is what the homebrew forums are for. However, you should recognise that someone playing by 5e's rules are definitely free to run the table as such.
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2024-03-27, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Nothing about the spell states that it can't spread, or can't be put out. You are pre-emptively making a ruling.
5e sacrificed verisimilitude for quick and simple play - it is not a flaw, it is a feature.
Spells and magic are absolutely NOT an exception to this design approach.
So Wall of Fire does whatever the players attempt to do with it that the DM decides to adjudicate as possible.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
Sabian Skellegue, the Unyielding Wrath
IC OOC
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Aelki Ruasha, Void Knight of the Star Ocean
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2024-03-27, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Trollbait extraordinaire
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2024-03-27, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-03-27, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
Agree to disagree. If Firebolt didn't set things on fire, you'd have a point. But adding properties to something that doesn't explicitly have them is the realm of homebrew, not rulings. IMO.
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2024-03-27, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
And nothing states it can. That is the point of RAW vs Homebrew. Following RAW is the expectation, not the exception.
Whether or not we want to call this DM Ruling or Homebrew is just going to be a lot of faff about nothing. If in a module the DM rules rocks fall, you all die, is that a DM Ruling or Homebrew? Wordplay, at best.Last edited by Aimeryan; 2024-03-27 at 10:00 AM.
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2024-03-27, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
A worthless distinction to draw. Either way you're changing/adding to the rules of the game. I doubt you're going into the threads in the homebrew forum of class/feat/spell fixes/tweaks and going "these are houserules, not homebrew".
"Magic Missile can guaranteed Blind targets by choosing to target their eyes, so long as they have equal to or fewer eyes than missiles you unleash." - Is this a houserule, or homebrew? Who cares?
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2024-03-27, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
That would only be a argument if there was any consistently to begin with. It's arbitrary what spell do it say they do.
Why does fireball, flame sphere, and bonfire catch objects on fire but incendiary cloud, wall of fire, and burning hands don't besides just because? Is some spell based fire hotter than the others?
Why do some fire based spells have the amount of illumination it provides but others don't? Does a wall of fire really provide no light?what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS
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2024-03-27, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-03-27, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Counterspelled Booming Blade
I didn't write the spells, and I'm not a developer of TTRPGs, so I can't state definitely why or why not spell X does Y and Spell A doesn't. Is it arbitrary? Maybe. Maybe there is an underlying physics we're not privy to, and for whatever reason, it doesn't reach the level of nerdom like trying to find the underlying math for weapons that was The Big Thing in 2015.
I do know, the transitive properties of role playing is, if something is specified somewhere, than anything else that is remotely close can't do it. Monks can run up walls. Fighter's thus, can't, no matter how high you boost your athletics. No Parkour for you!
And with all things TTRPGs, the gamemaster is perfectly within their rights to change whatever they want. It does NOT however, allow the player to then take their character that has been allowed to burn all the forest down with their Wall of Fire to port it into a completely different game with a different gamemaster and demand the same spell has the same properties.
THAT is the difference between RAW and homebrew. That this apparently needs to be stated is mindboggling.Trollbait extraordinaire