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Thread: Using a red dragon as working ox
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2024-04-11, 05:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Using a red dragon as working ox
A mere thought experiment, I thinked about that reading the Dark Mirror story about that blacksmith that kept monsters as slaves.
Up to what age category could a red dragon be safely used as a working animal to drag a plow - for bragging rights rather than true utility - using mundane means (non-magical)?
Detoothed, declawed and with clipped wings and tongue, the red would not be able to make natural weapons attacks, escape mundane chains or - most importantly - cast spells, at least untill he reaches caster level 6 (for Still and Silent spells). Which means Adult, for a red (over 100 years old).
There are other considerations to be made? Other ideas?Last edited by Samael Morgenst; 2024-04-11 at 05:11 AM.
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2024-04-11, 05:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
...are you forgetting the fire breath? I feel like you're forgetting the fire breath. Bit of an issue, that; once the dragon hits Very Young age it's dealing 4d10 damage with its breath, which will frequently damage iron (hardness 10) even after halving the damage for being fire.
Also, a Young red dragon (16 y/o) already has 25 strength, which is enough to break mundane chains 10% of the time (+7 vs DC 26).
Also, if we're letting it select its feats, a number of those grant SLAs or SUs that would at any rate make the dragon 'unsafe' to be around, and almost certainly allow it to escape as well. Shape Soulmeld (Acidic Splatter) would be the easiest way, but Fey Heritage + Fey Presence gives Charm Monster, and Fiendish Heritage + Fiendish Presence gives Suggestion; both a wyrmling could already possess. Hidden Talent likewise has a number of choices that allow for easy escape, and Bind Vestige + Practiced Binder lets the dragon regrow a natural attack that deals enough to break metal.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2024-04-11, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
This reminded me of the Trustful Dragon cartoon (although there dragon was used as a draft horse with a cart rather than ox with a plow): no detoothing/declawing was included - dragon just legitimately believed he's a horse (and thus - should work as a horse); when dragon was younger - he was told he's a dog (and believed it too )
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2024-04-11, 07:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
A RED dragon? Damn, you're not starting small, are you? I hope you're not valuing anything coming in front of your carriage too much, because 2d10 fire damage to anyone who steps in front of the dragon, even from wyrmling age, will kill most commoners and burn the crops you're trying to plow. It feels like you're thinking the only dangerous thing about dragons is that they cast spells. No, dragons are terrifying engine of destructions, armed literally from the tail to the teeth, who also happen to be able to cast spells.
Even if you somehow prevent it from breathing (maybe excising the Draconis Fundamentum, but I'm unsure how long the dragon would survive without it), Reds are so proud that you'd have to constantly whip it into doing anything. If you chain it and bind it to a plow, it will look at you with eyes darting with all the fire it cannot breathe at you and try to still attack you with its bare paws. Honestly the safest way is to simply Geas/Quest the dragon into helping you without harming any humanoid nor trying to escape, but you're probably not beating the pride of a fully capable red dragon of any age.
Aww, that was cute. I like when dragons live in harmony with other creatures, it's very much a "Gentle Giant" kind of story. When you treat them well, they treat you well (at least in general, it may not be the case for white, black and red D&D dragons).Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2024-04-11 at 07:42 AM.
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2024-04-11, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
Yes, I totally forgot about the breath weapon. My bad.
So... mabye a steel muzzle (a customized manacle for the jaws), with a small lockable opening to feed the dragon throw a thin metal funnel.
and try to still attack you with its bare paws.
Also, a Young red dragon (16 y/o) already has 25 strength, which is enough to break mundane chains 10% of the time (+7 vs DC 26).
Beside that, there's no specific rules for this but I think it is feasible to forge heavier-than-normal chains.
Also, if we're letting it select its feats, a number of those grant SLAs or SUs that would at any rate make the dragon 'unsafe' to be around, and almost certainly allow it to escape as well. Shape Soulmeld (Acidic Splatter) would be the easiest way, but Fey Heritage + Fey Presence gives Charm Monster, and Fiendish Heritage + Fiendish Presence gives Suggestion; both a wyrmling could already possess. Hidden Talent likewise has a number of choices that allow for easy escape, and Bind Vestige + Practiced Binder lets the dragon regrow a natural attack that deals enough to break metal.
Anyhow, Bind Vestige is not feasible. According to its description:
" Once the seal is drawn, you must perform a ritual, requiring a full-round action to summon the corresponding vestige. During this time, you must touch the seal and call out to the vestige using both its name and its title. The ritual fails if you cannot be heard (for example, if you are within the area of a Silence spell). "
Clipped tongue and no claws as written in the OP. Can't draw the sigil or speak clearly. Manacles and iron muzzle for extra safety.
Aww, that was cute. I like when dragons live in harmony with other creatures, it's very much a "Gentle Giant" kind of story. When you treat them well, they treat you well (at least in general, it may not be the case for white, black and red D&D dragons).
a proud red dragon forced to toil as an ox serving common people, constantly mocked and berated.Last edited by Samael Morgenst; 2024-04-11 at 08:32 AM.
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2024-04-11, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
So you're making the dragon completely ****ing useless for you. You could just buy a large animal. Like why use a Dragon when you have to make it completely garbage in order to stop it from killing you.
Again, why would you do that? Now it is less useful than a summoned elemental. Like just summon an elemental, buy an elephant, buy a bunch of horses.
Edit: Like broh, I get that you're super obsessed with enslaving Dragons for some reason, but this is literally less practical than just buying some actual Oxen. They will happily pull something, and while they are dangerous they're not Red Dragon dangerous if they ever get out. Also there are no specific rules for removing Dragon claws. And many animals cannot be declawed without significant danger to the animal. Where are you gonna find a dragon farrier? Do dragon tongues regrow? Do you have any idea about any of this?Last edited by AMFV; 2024-04-11 at 08:34 AM.
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2024-04-11, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
@AMFV: I wrote the reason very clearly in the OP. "more for bragging rights rather than true utility"
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2024-04-11, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
So where are you gonna find a dragon farrier? Who knows how to remove dragon tongues? Does your muzzle stop a breath weapon? There's nothing in the rules that would stop a breath weapon with a muzzle. Especially if you're giving the Dragon infinite time at night to breath on it all night. Do their tongues stay clipped? Do they grow back? These are things you have to figure out the answer to. Also there are no mechanical rules for removing a creature's tongue, dragon or not.
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2024-04-11, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
If a dragon can breathe, there's a path for the breath weapon to go out. Not at full strength perhaps, but I'd be very surprised if you can stand in front of it and be unharmed. And, of course, the funnel would definitely be affected by the fire breath, and the funnel can still melt.
I've got to wonder here: what's the point? You say 'bragging rights' but at some point there's nothing to brag about, you just cut off everything that makes a dragon a dragon and then wrapped the sorry remnant in chains. That's like bragging about being an expert at riding wild horses without being bucked off; the horse just needs to be sedated first!
Break DCs are based on material, not on mass. Yes that is silly, yes that is how it works. Masterwork manacles are DC 28 instead of 26 to break so sure, add an age category to that, the dragon now escapes once it turns 26.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2024-04-11, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
So where are you gonna find a dragon farrier? Who knows how to remove dragon tongues? Does your muzzle stop a breath weapon? There's nothing in the rules that would stop a breath weapon with a muzzle. Especially if you're giving the Dragon infinite time at night to breath on it all night. Do their tongues stay clipped? Do they grow back?
I said clip, not remove. Too much risk of exanguination. Clip the tip to prevent coherent speaking, then cauterize with acid.
No, a dragon do not regrows naturally body parts without magic, as no creature does untill it has Regeneration or unless its explicitly stated in the description.
Anyway, another possible solution would be vocal cords clipping. I guess that any moderately skilled physician or butcher could manage that. Pluse a Cure Minor Wounds to stop bleeding, or a minor potion, or even just - for using no magic at all - a character specialized in the Heal skill.
If a dragon can breathe, there's a path for the breath weapon to go out. Not at full strength perhaps, but I'd be very surprised if you can stand in front of it and be unharmed. And, of course, the funnel would definitely be affected by the fire breath, and the funnel can still melt.
That said, I think a dragon can't breath fire correctly without opening his jaws. I think - but I'm not sure about that - it involves puffing the chest and a certain amount of effort. Mabye a chain helding tighly the ribcage can prevent this.
Especially if you're giving the Dragon infinite time at night to breath on it all night.
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I've got to wonder here: what's the point? You say 'bragging rights' but at some point there's nothing to brag about, you just cut off everything that makes a dragon a dragon and then wrapped the sorry remnant in chains. That's like bragging about being an expert at riding wild horses without being bucked off; the horse just needs to be sedated first!
A dire tiger too , as scary and mighty he may be, is just an animal and there would be no honor in breaking him.
But a red dragon? The iconic nearly-immortal monster that makes kings and commoner alike tremble, reduced to a mocked working beast?
That's cool.Last edited by Samael Morgenst; 2024-04-11 at 09:11 AM.
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2024-04-11, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
Actually the rules are pretty silent on that issue. Lizards can regrow sections of tail and that's not listed under their description. So presumably long term regrowth is not actually something the rules are concerned with. And dragons are highly magical creatures. So you're literally playing with fire here.
[QUOTE=Samael Morgenst;25994127]
Anyway, another possible solution would be vocal cords clipping. I guess that any moderately skilled physician or butcher could manage that. Pluse a Cure Minor Wounds to stop bleeding, or a minor potion, or even just - for using no magic at all - a character specialized in the Heal skill.[/Quote[
I want to know where you're getting that.
Rules as Written the dragon does not have to be able to move and can breath while pinned or restrained. I don't know where you're getting that it "involves puffing the chest and a certain amount of effort"
Originally Posted by SRD
How do you know that won't permanently injure the dragon?
Broh, I'm gonna be honest this is very much not cool. This is into actually sketching people out territory. You're discussing an intelligent creature that you are mutilating and permanently enslaving. Like at an actual table this is very likely to skeeve people, and rightly so. It wouldn't make people tremble. It would make them sad. There's no honor in "breaking" any creature in the way you're describing, and again it's not likely to work.
The fact that the creature's intelligence is why you're saying that there is "honor" in doing this is just absolutely unconscionable. Like in a game it might be tolerable. But I would be very unhappy with any player that tried this crap.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2024-04-11, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
The other problem with this plan is that you've really upset anyone that values the freedom of sentient beings, as well as any red dragons, and likely any other dragon doing this. And if you've decided to force a dragon into being a show of your personal strength, you're not really trying to keep it a secret either. I don't feel like someone stupid enough to make this overt display of being evil is going to last very long.
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2024-04-11, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
The fact that the creature's intelligence is why you're saying that there is "honor" in doing this is just absolutely unconscionable. Like in a game it might be tolerable. But I would be very unhappy with any player that tried this crap.
I'm not talking about the fundamentally benevolent metallic dragons.
Not even about a crude, beastly white.
Or a psychopatic black.
Or a craven, paranoid green.
Or a manically obsessive blue.
As much obnoxious and dangerous they may be, those could be forgiven as instinctive brutes.
I'm talking about red dragons, that beasts that believe themselves gods and gloat in having humanity live in terror of them. The ones that cowe villagers into sacrificing youths to feed them (according to the Monster Manual core description). The iconic Big Bads.Last edited by Samael Morgenst; 2024-04-11 at 09:33 AM.
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2024-04-11, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
And not even that, if you're using it as a display other ****ing dragons are gonna find out about it, and they are not going to be happy. Like showing off "I captured a baby dragon and am now mutilating it..." is probably not going to get you far. Like frankly, even many Evil characters are going to find this extremely distasteful.
So why is a Dire Tiger not appropriate? That's an animal that has the same exact kind of damage to human communities. They eat people.
You might want to recheck the intelligence scores on at least four of those... Scratch that, five of those.
Yes, and if a player told me that they were going to string up the big bad, gouge his tongue out, cut off part of his fingers, chain him so that he couldn't turn his head at night, and force him to slowly pull a plow. I would tell them to get the **** out of my game. And I'd be right in that. This is very skeezy stuff to talk about doing to an intelligent creature. Now like there are game settings where this sort of thing might happen, but the fact that you're missing the really obvious uncomfortable stuff here is definitely concerning.My Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2024-04-11, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
So why is a Dire Tiger not appropriate? That's an animal that has the same exact kind of damage to human communities. They eat people.
ou might want to recheck the intelligence scores on at least four of those...
Yes, and if a player told me that they were going to string up the big bad, gouge his tongue out, cut off part of his fingers, chain him so that he couldn't turn his head at night, and force him to slowly pull a plow. I would tell them to get the **** out of my game. And I'd be right in that. This is very skeezy stuff to talk about doing to an intelligent creature. Now like there are game settings where this sort of thing might happen, but the fact that you're missing the really obvious uncomfortable stuff here is definitely concerning.
I realize it would not be a good thing to do. I'm not saying that I would do it.
But I can understand that people living for years - or generations! - under the red shadow may crave for retribution.
How do you know that won't permanently injure the dragon?Last edited by Samael Morgenst; 2024-04-11 at 09:45 AM.
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2024-04-11, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
Don't these two statements kind of contradict each other? Either a red dragon has free will, and thus can choose not to be cruel, making its enslavement an absolute abomination, or it cannot choose not to be cruel, thus acting on instinct alone, making it innocent.
You can't have it both ways, finding a sapient, thinking, feeling creature and doing the worst things to it justified by "it is just its nature to deserve this".
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2024-04-11, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
Torture is in the Book of Vile Darkness as an evil deed. Deciding to torture someone for no other reason than "because it would be cool" doesn't stop it from being an evil act, regardless of how evil the tortured creature is.
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2024-04-11, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
Let me explain myself better.
I don't think that non-red chromatic dragons are innocent. The overwhelming majority is indeed malevolent and evil. But there are degrees of evil
Dire tigers are innocents.
Non red chromatic dragons are evil, must be stopped, but to mutilate them into pseudo ox for bragging rights would undoubtably be evil and disproportionate.
Red dragons...
in my modest and fallible opinion, doing that to a red dragon could be, if not justifiable, at least understandable.
Torture is in the Book of Vile Darkness as an evil deed. Deciding to torture someone for no other reason than "because it would be cool" doesn't stop it from being an evil act, regardless of how evil the tortured creature is.
Break DCs are based on material, not on mass. Yes that is silly, yes that is how it works. Masterwork manacles are DC 28 instead of 26 to break so sure, add an age category to that, the dragon now escapes once it turns 26.
Well, it is an homebrew - ad hoc rule, and usually I don't use them, but this is just a thought experiment so...
mabye progressively sever part (not all) the tendons and/or the major muscle fascisce as the red grows? (permanent Strength damage, to keep it around 25 Strength)
Reds are so proud that you'd have to constantly whip it into doing anything.
According to the Draconomicon, removed scales regrow but weaker and thinner. Mabye a section of hide could be flayed from his hinderquarter, let naturally regrow thinnker, and then that point be pushed with the Ankhus to force the red moving forward.Last edited by Samael Morgenst; 2024-04-11 at 10:15 AM.
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2024-04-11, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-11, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
I mean they definitely can possess that. But the thing is that because they are intelligent creatures they also could not possess those traits. They aren't bound by their nature.
Originally Posted by Monster Manual
Retribution for wrongs caused by a different creature is not an appropriate reason to torture an unrelated creature.
to torture someone for no other reason than "because it would be cool" doesn't stop it from being an evil act, regardless of how evil the tortured creature is.[/QUOTE]
But you're not doing it to a creature that has done those thingsMy Avatar is Glimtwizzle, a Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist by Cuthalion.
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2024-04-11, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
Okay, let's leave out the incongruous statements on inborn morality and focus purely on this as a question of mechanical possibility. The pattern there has been pretty consistent: someone lists a possible way for the dragon to affect the world and you say 'well what if we add more or better restraints'. So let's carry that one to its natural conclusion real quick:
The dragon looks like a metal roulade. Its legs are bound, its head is bound, its wings are bound, its tail is bound. It's either unable to breathe fire, or its head is kept straight up so it can only breathe into the air. The dragon has a sort of cone on its head (carefully angled so the breath weapon cannot touch the sides), and may be fed by throwing food into this cone. It can shuffle ahead very slowly thanks to a tiny amount of slack on its chains, and you could, technically, extract useful work from this movement. Perhaps there's a rail system embedded in the ground that the dragon is hooked up to as well, to further restrain its movement to a single approved path. There's also sufficient redundancy in the chains that individual components can be replaced or upsized without allowing the dragon any freedom.
The avenues of escape that remain here are the dragon breaking its chains (which will depend on whatever you consider an appropriate DC for the best possible restraints), and the dragon using its innate casting to get free (in theory Sudden Still Sudden Silent Eschew Materials Babau Slime could do the job as soon as you get magic, so young age). There's no need for any declawing or defanging, and your willingness to resort to those is rightfully creeping people out - there's not even a real need for cutting out the dragon's tongue, because if it's allowed to select metamagic feats as you suggest, it can get Sudden Silent anyway. Thus, the answer is either young or very young age.
So here you go, an answer to your beautifully designed thought experiment. I'm sorry if it doesn't contain enough cruelty disguised as practicality.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2024-04-11, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it would be the right thing to do.
I've already clearly stated it isn't. It's an evil thing.
I just wanted to express my opinion, that given the very iconic role of the red dragon as symbol of ultimate oppression, many exhasperated humans would lean toward searching retaliation, to exorcise their own feat and humiliation by breaking a specimen of the otherwise fearsom kin.
That being said, yep, it's not justifiable although at least partially understandable.
But I also find it cool, above all.
To mock and drag around a red while telling him "Not so proud anymore, mh, Smaug?"
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2024-04-11, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
I mean, ultimately there aren't rules for this because D&D is a game about fighting monsters, not torturing and mutilating them. I'm not sure what response you're hoping to get here.
When in doubt, light something on fire.
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
And the most logical retaliation of the common folk, who are more likely true neutral than anything, and unlikely going to go through this many hoops and insane ideas of getting retribution, will just want the dragon dead. No chaining it. No mocking it. No taunting it. No dismemberment. They will simply say "that be a bad thing, and a menace to society. We should kill it."
The idea that any society, as a whole, would want to go through these measures really skews the idea of said society as quite the conglomeration of evil bastards, which they aren't (usually).
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2024-04-11, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
Idea of "using a dragon for plowing" reminded me of something
I tried to remember it for a time - but, finally, I got it: Nikita the Tanner!
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2024-04-11, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
{Scrubbed} but someone being extremely evil themselves does not give you moral justification to be endlessly cruel to them. It would be extremely ****ed up if a total monster straight of out history books had their tongue cut out, their fingers cut off, their legs cut off at the knees, and they were forced to become a beast of burden for the amusement of their victims.
Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2024-04-14 at 11:06 PM.
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2024-04-11, 11:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
It's definitely something a balor or pit fiend might do though
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Re: Using a red dragon as working ox
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}, but someone being extremely evil themselves does not give you moral justification to be endlessly cruel to them.
It would be extremely ****ed up if a total monster straight of out history books had their tongue cut out, their fingers cut off, their legs cut off at the knees, and they were forced to become a beast of burden for the amusement of their victims.
The idea that any society, as a whole, would want to go through these measures really skews the idea of said society as quite the conglomeration of evil bastards, which they aren't (usually).Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2024-04-14 at 11:07 PM.