Shogun [2024 Disney+/Hulu series]

[Ruck]

I mean, I'm sure you could tell a good story about the battle. It just still retains the problem where we know the outcome because of the season 1 ending and so it would just feel dramatically inert; we want to see the next uncertainty or challenge for Toranaga et. al. and what happens next, rather than spending episodes waiting for an outcome we know is inevitable.

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe John Blackthorne's daughter will show up on the scene and conquer Japan all by herself or something

Riding on the back of a fire breathing dragon.
I get the idea that the second season will see more of the "throw the foreigners out" stuff.

[Cikomyr2]

For what i know, there's a non trivial portion of the final battle that was decided through characterisation of the people involved. From Toranaga shooting a hesistant allied clan, to a turncoat clan having had a long standing relationship to one the party (not sure if their leader hated Ishida, or had a long friendship with Toranaga).

There is a story to be made there. A long, drawn out Dragon Ball Z paced story where the events slowly pan out while you keep showing backstory of the involved antagonists and how it informs their place on the battlefield.

[Mechalich]

For what i know, there's a non trivial portion of the final battle that was decided through characterisation of the people involved. From Toranaga shooting a hesistant allied clan, to a turncoat clan having had a long standing relationship to one the party (not sure if their leader hated Ishida, or had a long friendship with Toranaga).

There is a story to be made there. A long, drawn out Dragon Ball Z paced story where the events slowly pan out while you keep showing backstory of the involved antagonists and how it informs their place on the battlefield.

Sekigahara was arguably decided by a series of factors, with the novel, and season one of the show, emphasizing a single one: the choice of several important lords, most notably Mori Terumoto, to not properly commit to the anti-Tokugawa Western Army alliance. Terumoto, who was one of the five regents and also who controlled basically the entirety of southwestern Honshu (giving him probably the second most valuable territory in Japan at the time behind only Ieyasu) was supposed to lead the alliance and should have commanded the Western Army at Sekigahara, but refused to do so. This forced Mitsunari to take command in person, but since Mitsunari was primarily a bureaucrat, not a general, many of the senior daimyo would not listen to his orders, dooming his coalition to destruction via treachery. Exactly what motivated Mori and other daimyo to stand aside in this way is not entirely clear, but the death of Hosokawa Gracia (Mariko's character) when Mitsunari attempted to use her as a hostage is considered an important incident in this regard.

However, there are other factors, and a second season could emphasize others. Treachery is the big one. Accounts of the battle are somewhat contradictory, but it is generally agreed that while Ieyasu attacked first and a considerable portion of the Western Army stood around and didn't commit, the Eastern Army was unable to seize an advantage, in part because of a steady defense by Otani Yoshi-tsugu (Onoshi in the novel), who Ieyasu had hoped to recruit but who chose to fight for Mitsunari instead for reasons that remain unknown (but have been heavily dramatized for centuries). When Kobayakawa changed sides, Yoshi-tsugu's position became flanked and overwhelmed, which in turn caused several other daimyo to turn to Ieyasu, at which point the Western Army position collapsed.

The tricky part to staging something for a television series is that basically all the drama is on the Western Army side, not the side of Ieyasu/Toronaga's Eastern Army, and that basically all the important Western Army characters either perish in the battle or shortly thereafter - the critical traitor Kobayakawa was apparently just the worst and drank himself to death within two years of that battle, making him useless as a character for subsequent events. Shimazu Yoshihiro, a very interesting character, does survive the battle in extremely dramatic fashion - his critically wounded nephew convinces him not to commit suicide and his forces cut their way out by charging straight through Ieyasu's forces - he subsequently when home to Kyushu and did nothing significant for the rest of his life. For dramatic purposes, this could be finessed. The Shimazu were Toyotomi allies and though they did not send troops to Osaka, they could have, making it possible to place Yoshihiro there (he was still alive at this point).

Edit: the profanity filter apparently doesn't like certain Japanese names, hence the dashes.

[Clertar]

I think that they should just skip the battle, and even jump ahead to one year after it. Rather than wasting budget and resources on a battle that we don't care about (we care about its consequences for the characters we're invested in), they should channel that towards the things that made the first season great: the outstanding production, small moments, character dynamics. We start the season when Toranaga is already Shogun; Blackthorne is just back from some commercial trip or expedition and is summoned, and we catch up with them as they discuss whatever is worrying Toranaga and whatever threats and political intrigue have been going on.

[Infernally Clay]

I mean, I'm sure you could tell a good story about the battle. It just still retains the problem where we know the outcome because of the season 1 ending and so it would just feel dramatically inert; we want to see the next uncertainty or challenge for Toranaga et. al. and what happens next, rather than spending episodes waiting for an outcome we know is inevitable.

A battle we already know the outcome of does not necessarily lack drama. There is plenty of time between the end of the first season and the beginning of the Battle of Sekigahara for the introduction of a wealth of characters who may live or die and whose allegiances may swing back and forth in the battle to come. As we know from history, a lot of powerful feudal lords were involved in the battle and Ishido and Toranaga rallying them to their side or against each other will provide a lot of drama by itself.

After all, that's kind of the point no? Toranaga's success is a foregone conclusion but it's the price everyone else pays for him to succeed that's the real meat of the story.

[Mechalich]

It's important to at least address the Sekigahara Campaign, since that's critical to the development of certain characters going forward. This includes Tokugawa Hidetada (Yoshii Sudara in the novel, who doesn't appear in season one of the show), the son and heir who becomes shogun in 1605 (Ieyasu 'retired' from being shogun after a mere two years holding the office, though he retained power until his death), and potentially Sanada Yukimura - assuming he's to take on a large role as an antagonist, which makes sense. Hidetada and Yukimura are both characters inherently full of drama, since they had ties on both sides of the Toyotomi/Shogunate conflict post-Sekigahara. Hidetada's daughter married Hideyori, the Toyotomi heir (Nakamura Yaechiyo in the show, at the time a child), and perished at Osaka at the hands of armies Hidetada nominally commanded. Meanwhile Yukimura's elder brother Nobuyuki served Ieyasu, married his adopted daughter, and got Yukimura spared execution following Sekigahara, and Yukimura still went on to lead the Toyotomi forces at Osaka with enough vigor that he acquired monikers like 'Last Sengoku Hero.'

These two characters, as I mentioned in previous posts, fight at Ueda and aren't at Sekigahara proper. Putting the focus on the Siege of Ueda, rather than Sekigahara itself, would certainly save money, though presumably there would be a number of tense dramatic scenes in camp with Toranaga wondering where his son and 40,000 troops he really needs are. The show would need to conjure some reason to send Blackthorne with Hidetada, and could also find a way to introduce a female lead (because there's going to be an important female character, love interest or not) during the siege.

[Infernally Clay]

It's important to at least address the Sekigahara Campaign, since that's critical to the development of certain characters going forward. This includes Tokugawa Hidetada (Yoshii Sudara in the novel, who doesn't appear in season one of the show), the son and heir who becomes shogun in 1605 (Ieyasu 'retired' from being shogun after a mere two years holding the office, though he retained power until his death), and potentially Sanada Yukimura - assuming he's to take on a large role as an antagonist, which makes sense. Hidetada and Yukimura are both characters inherently full of drama, since they had ties on both sides of the Toyotomi/Shogunate conflict post-Sekigahara. Hidetada's daughter married Hideyori, the Toyotomi heir (Nakamura Yaechiyo in the show, at the time a child), and perished at Osaka at the hands of armies Hidetada nominally commanded. Meanwhile Yukimura's elder brother Nobuyuki served Ieyasu, married his adopted daughter, and got Yukimura spared execution following Sekigahara, and Yukimura still went on to lead the Toyotomi forces at Osaka with enough vigor that he acquired monikers like 'Last Sengoku Hero.'

These two characters, as I mentioned in previous posts, fight at Ueda and aren't at Sekigahara proper. Putting the focus on the Siege of Ueda, rather than Sekigahara itself, would certainly save money, though presumably there would be a number of tense dramatic scenes in camp with Toranaga wondering where his son and 40,000 troops he really needs are. The show would need to conjure some reason to send Blackthorne with Hidetada, and could also find a way to introduce a female lead (because there's going to be an important female character, love interest or not) during the siege.

Blackthorne's role will be the most interesting, because a lot of the things that happened with Blackthorne already didn't actually happen with William Adams until years later. Adams didn't become a samurai until 1604, nor hatamoto until 1605. I guess they'll just have to do as Clavell did and compress the timeline.

The Battle of Sekigahara happens in 1600, but Tokugawa didn't become Shogun until 1603 and he stepped down in 1605 so his son could become the figurehead of the newly established Tokugawa Shogunate. That won't really work in the show because it is framed as though Toranaga becomes Shogun immediately after Sekigahara and of course Toranaga lost his son in the show, so he has no reason to step down as Shogun until his death.

Of course the real problem they've got is that once Tokugawa became Shogun in 1603, well, not a lot really happened until 1614 when he forbade the practice of Christian faith, kicked out almost all foreigners and effectively shut Japan's borders for the next 250 years before going after Toyotomi Hideyori and his mother and killing them both.

Don't get me wrong that's a fantastic basis for a final season and Nakamura Yaechiyo would be an incredible "final antagonist" but a decade long timeskip to get there, which would be necessary for Nakamura to become the young feudal lord and rival to Toranaga that his enemies rally around, is probably a bit much.

[pendell]

I don't understand there's no drama to a battle in which we already know the outcome. Consider the aforementioned Spartacus and 300 -- anyone who has a passing knowledge of history knows the outcome of the Servile Wars or Thermopylae, but it's still a tale worth telling even so.

For that matter, in 99% of entertainment we know the good guys are going to win in the end and there will be a happy ending. The mystery is not in the outcome but exactly how we get there. Movies like Empire Strikes Back or Avengers: Infinity War are the exception, not the rule. And there's a reason for that. Telling that kind of story once in awhile can be thought-provoking. But a modern audience doesn't go to see movies where the bad guys win as a rule; real life is depressing enough without our entertainment adding to it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mechalich]

The Battle of Sekigahara happens in 1600, but Tokugawa didn't become Shogun until 1603 and he stepped down in 1605 so his son could become the figurehead of the newly established Tokugawa Shogunate. That won't really work in the show because it is framed as though Toranaga becomes Shogun immediately after Sekigahara and of course Toranaga lost his son in the show, so he has no reason to step down as Shogun until his death.

He lost a son in the show, but Ieyasu had nearly a dozen sons (one of whom did in fact die around the time as the events of the novel). Hidetada would have been off-screen during the events of season one, since he was up in Shinano province dealing with the Uesugi, so introducing him in a second season is quite doable.

Of course the real problem they've got is that once Tokugawa became Shogun in 1603, well, not a lot really happened until 1614 when he forbade the practice of Christian faith, kicked out almost all foreigners and effectively shut Japan's borders for the next 250 years before going after Toyotomi Hideyori and his mother and killing them both.

Don't get me wrong that's a fantastic basis for a final season and Nakamura Yaechiyo would be an incredible "final antagonist" but a decade long timeskip to get there, which would be necessary for Nakamura to become the young feudal lord and rival to Toranaga that his enemies rally around, is probably a bit much.

The Osaka Campaign also works better when told from the Toyotomi side, IMO, and is usually staged that way in media. Hideyori gathers in this huge horde of disaffected ronin, builds a castle with experimental defensive measures that actually throws Ieyasu off his game, and Sanada Yukimura checks off pretty much every single 'bad*** samurai' box on the way to his glorious death. By contrast, Ieyasu simply mobilizes a massive shogunate force, brutally bombards Osaka with cannon, makes a duplicitous peace treaty whose spirit he immediately betrays, and massacres his enemies brutally while they are largely defenseless.

It makes a good centerpiece for a hypothetical 3rd season, but it would be hard to jump that far forward at once. Also, it would be rather burdensome on the makeup department to age up Cosmo Jarvis and some of the other actors significantly for basically every scene.

[Ramza00]

So I was recently reminded of the fact some of the 1978 and later Wolverine plus the X-Men stories are inspired by the fact the author Chris Claremont really like the 1975 Shogun book.

=====

I understand they are completely different entirely, but as a person who has not seen the Hulu series nor read the book, is this just trivia or inspiration … or can one see true links between these pieces of media ?

[Ramza00]

the internet people are telling me the original 1980 Shogun 5 episode miniseries is now up on Paramount+ Streaming.

It was not available to stream last month when the Hulu series was airing.

[t209]

So I was recently reminded of the fact some of the 1978 and later Wolverine plus the X-Men stories are inspired by the fact the author Chris Claremont really like the 1975 Shogun book.

Also Same goes with 1985 OA setting for DnD, especially Swords of the Daimyo module’s prologue.
I remember a forward about it being based on Shogun, mostly the miniseries.

[Prime32]

It was also an influence on Wizardry, where Samurai and Ninja are advanced classes and the Muramasa is the best weapon in the game. Which in turn fed back into portrayals of samurai in Japanese RPGs.

[pendell]

Ironic in that the Muramasa is a cursed sword in Japanese folklore with a special hatred for the Tokugawa dynasty; this shows up in Shogun when

Spoiler

Show

Kasigi Yabu throws his Muramasa into the sea as a proof of loyalty to Toronaga and his family; it doesn't save him being found out for treason and ordered to commit seppuku.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Palanan]

Returning to this show after a long absence....or at least it feels like a long time.



I was watching this show avidly until the final scenes of the ninth episode, after which my interest instantly evaporated. I tried watching a little of the tenth episode, but found I just didn’t care.

Is there anything of significance in that last episode, or does it just push the pieces around to end up where we expected they would?

[Cikomyr2]

Returning to this show after a long absence....or at least it feels like a long time.



I was watching this show avidly until the final scenes of the ninth episode, after which my interest instantly evaporated. I tried watching a little of the tenth episode, but found I just didn’t care.

Is there anything of significance in that last episode, or does it just push the pieces around to end up where we expected they would?

If you dont feel watching it, dont watch it man. There's no massive twist to recontextualize anything. Its a beautiful denouement where, as you say, the pieces end up where they are expected to.

If you dont care about the pieces, you wont care for the episode. But i loved the pieces, so i loved it.

[Palanan]

Thanks.

"A beautiful denouement" is high praise indeed, so that rekindles my interest.

[gbaji]

I finally sat down and watched the entire series. It was really good. The funny bit is that it's been so long since I watched the original series and read the book, that I honestly could not remember which minor variations were variations with the book, or the original series, or both. It seemed to me like this series did spend more time on the ancillary characters than the original series did (I'm pretty sure I recognized people/events from the book, but vaguely recall that there was less detail in the old series, but that could be my memory being faulty). It hit all of the same points and did so very well.

The one slightly different bit, which I totally get, is that it felt like they spent less time explaining the cultural differences, and just showed the effects of them on Blackthorne. Which, given the time period in which the book was written (and the og series filmed), makes a heck of a lot of sense. Understanding of that era and culture of Japan is much more mainstream today than it was back then (and the book/series itself had a decent part with bringing that into mainstream western consciousness, so it's a great "full circle" kind of thing IMO). I do distinctly remember the longish bits in the novel where the feudal economic bits were detailed, which were rushed over in this series. Also, the bits about the invisible/unwanted class were not present in this series (and now I can't remember if they were in the og series either, or just in the book). Not a huge miss though. Again though, Clavell was clearly making an effort to inform western audiences about the Japanese culture of the time period, so he spent quite a bit of time on those bits (how accurate they were, I can't honestly say).

This series somewhat assumes the audience already understands enough about the time period and culture, so it can delve a lot deeper into the intricacies of the characters and plot(s), which I appreciated.

Sekigahara was arguably decided by a series of factors, with the novel, and season one of the show, emphasizing a single one: the choice of several important lords, most notably Mori Terumoto, to not properly commit to the anti-Tokugawa Western Army alliance. Terumoto, who was one of the five regents and also who controlled basically the entirety of southwestern Honshu (giving him probably the second most valuable territory in Japan at the time behind only Ieyasu) was supposed to lead the alliance and should have commanded the Western Army at Sekigahara, but refused to do so. This forced Mitsunari to take command in person, but since Mitsunari was primarily a bureaucrat, not a general, many of the senior daimyo would not listen to his orders, dooming his coalition to destruction via treachery. Exactly what motivated Mori and other daimyo to stand aside in this way is not entirely clear, but the death of Hosokawa Gracia (Mariko's character) when Mitsunari attempted to use her as a hostage is considered an important incident in this regard.

Hah. Which just reminds me of a slightly less incompetent/silly variation of the French at Agincourt. Not with the whole treachery aspects, but the leadership being so politically focused that the order of battle was determined by prestige and political position instead of what would actually have resulted in victory. It's kinda interesting to study history and find that the same flaws and failings exist everwhere, and I suppose also that really good leadership is rarer than you might think, and notable when it happens. There are some stunning examples of this (going in both directions) in the Roman period as well. It guess it's not always about numbers, but what you do with them.

But as to the second season, I could see them detailing the actual process involved in defeating the nobles and forming the Shogunate. There's certainly plenty of intrigue that could be put in there. I also agree with the pervious comments that this would focus a lot of that intrigue on the other side, but honestly, that's where it kinda was in the book/series as well. The whole point was about using their intrigue and manipulations against them, to turn both popular opinion and alliances around. I could see a similar method used in season 2, taking the actual historically reported events, and perhaps putting some slight twists on them.

I was watching this show avidly until the final scenes of the ninth episode, after which my interest instantly evaporated. I tried watching a little of the tenth episode, but found I just didn’t care.

Is there anything of significance in that last episode, or does it just push the pieces around to end up where we expected they would?

Yeah. Same as above. The story does basically end at that point. Everything else is epilogue/denouement. There aren't any real events/changes past that point, but IMO it's still worthwhile to see what the outcomes are and the how/why of things. I think there's one or two reveals that come along, which are relevant to a season 2 (so might want to watch if you're planning on watching the next season), but were only kind of minor footnotes of "ah hah!" at the end of the book.

[Mechalich]

But as to the second season, I could see them detailing the actual process involved in defeating the nobles and forming the Shogunate. There's certainly plenty of intrigue that could be put in there. I also agree with the pervious comments that this would focus a lot of that intrigue on the other side, but honestly, that's where it kinda was in the book/series as well. The whole point was about using their intrigue and manipulations against them, to turn both popular opinion and alliances around. I could see a similar method used in season 2, taking the actual historically reported events, and perhaps putting some slight twists on them.

The ideal point of post-battle intrigue involves Mori Terumoto, who, as I mentioned above, was the principle Western Daimyo but did not attend the battle. Terumoto held control of Osaka and could have attempted to hold the city against Ieyasu, whose military advantage was not overwhelming (because Sekigahara was decided primarily by treachery a large number of forces involved never engaged and left the battlefield in good order perfectly capable of renewed combat). Terumoto chose to submit, and this action left Ieyasu unchallenged and supreme, with the authority to conduct a massive reorganization of 'fiefs' that followed in 1602 - prior to his becoming shogun - in which he rewarded all his followers and punished those who had opposed him as well as made sure to appoint loyalists to strategically important territories. The total territory confiscated or reduced and redistributed was on the order of 6.5 million koku, out of around 18.5 million koku worth of agricultural production measured by Hideoyoshi's land survey in 1598 (a truly remarkable civic project), so this was an absolutely huge reorganization of power.

This redistribution, it should be noted, was critically important to the Osaka Campaign in 1615, since it was the source of the tens of thousands of ronin - samurai without land to support them - who rallied to fight for Hideyori despite his absolutely desperate circumstances.

[Cikomyr2]

The ideal point of post-battle intrigue involves Mori Terumoto, who, as I mentioned above, was the principle Western Daimyo but did not attend the battle. Terumoto held control of Osaka and could have attempted to hold the city against Ieyasu, whose military advantage was not overwhelming (because Sekigahara was decided primarily by treachery a large number of forces involved never engaged and left the battlefield in good order perfectly capable of renewed combat). Terumoto chose to submit, and this action left Ieyasu unchallenged and supreme, with the authority to conduct a massive reorganization of 'fiefs' that followed in 1602 - prior to his becoming shogun - in which he rewarded all his followers and punished those who had opposed him as well as made sure to appoint loyalists to strategically important territories. The total territory confiscated or reduced and redistributed was on the order of 6.5 million koku, out of around 18.5 million koku worth of agricultural production measured by Hideoyoshi's land survey in 1598 (a truly remarkable civic project), so this was an absolutely huge reorganization of power.

This redistribution, it should be noted, was critically important to the Osaka Campaign in 1615, since it was the source of the tens of thousands of ronin - samurai without land to support them - who rallied to fight for Hideyori despite his absolutely desperate circumstances.

But then, if Sekigahara was determined by treachery, most likely orchestrated by Tokugawa, the release of the hostages from Osaka was what allowed him to pull off all the turncoating, right?