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Thread: You have chosen... poorly
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2007-09-16, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
You have chosen... poorly
What spells, maneuvers, items, or the like have you found that are simply awful, either because there's something better that's easier to get or because they're just that bad?
Off the top of my head are Exorcism of Steel (the 3rd level Iron Heart strike) and Greater Divine Surge (8th level Devoted Spirit strike).
Exorcism because it's bad: -4 to damage, doesn't do any damage itself, and there's a save for half effect. Not remotely worth a readied maneuver slot. Probably not worth it if it was 1st level; you could be using Steel Wind or Sapphire Nightmare Blade.
GDS because it actively hurts you: it takes longer to initiate than normal Divine Surge, does less damage, and makes you flatfooted. This for something 4 levels higher. I won't even discuss the Con damage thing.
So, what do you find shockingly bad?Thanks to Veera for the avatar.
I keep my stories in a blog. You should read them.
5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist
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2007-09-16, 06:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
- Appalachian Mountains
Re: You have chosen... poorly
Glamered armor. Why buy glamered armor when a hat of disguise is cheaper and does more?
Aratos Tell
HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants
Megiddo
HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
Active Effects:
Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2
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2007-09-16, 06:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
- Location
- Connecticut
- Gender
Spoiler
Zöe Althira in When On Olympus
Ratri Aeval in Double Major
Mercedes Swift, Scion of Hermes, in ???
Haiiro Mariko in The Scarlet Shadow
Kris "Krash" Ashton in Colony
Karen Mallory in Changing Breeds
Spoiler
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2007-09-16, 06:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Gender
Re: You have chosen... poorly
You're kidding, right? You can burn CON for, what, +2d8 damage per point? Go through 14 CON (out of 18-20ish) and that's 28d8, plus the 6d8 base maneuver damage for 34d8, plus normal damage, and +14 to hit, meaning you're pretty much guaranteed to connect.
BAM! They're dead. Your party goes through 7ish charges of a Wand of Lesser Restoration after. Or the cleric just casts Heal and wipes all the CON damage out... which he can do even if the enemy survives somehow.
Heck, assuming there are enemies left, you can follow up with Strike of Righteous Vitality, and Heal *yourself*.
Greater Divine Surge isn't awful, it's verging on overpowered.
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2007-09-16, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Poland
- Gender
Re: You have chosen... poorly
On the top of my head, Shield spell. Unless in very specific circumstances, Mage Armor is just plainly better- it grants the same AC bonus, but lasts for hours/level instead of minute/level.
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2007-09-16, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Location
- Appalachian Mountains
Re: You have chosen... poorly
On the top of my head, Shield spell. Unless in very specific circumstances, Mage Armor is just plainly better- it grants the same AC bonus, but lasts for hours/level instead of minute/level.Aratos Tell
HP:53/53 AC:19,FlatFooted:16,Touch:13
Active Effects: Speak w/Animals
Spells Prepared: Cure Minor Wounds*4, Flare, Calm Animals, Charm Animal, Cure Light Wounds, Animal Messenger, Flaming Sphere, Lesser Restoration, Hold Animal, Cure Mod. Wounds*2, Speak w/Plants
Megiddo
HP:26/26 PP: 40/40 AC:14,FlatFooted:13,Touch:13
Active Effects:
Spells Prepared: Light*2, Burning Hands*2, Protection f/Evil, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, See Invis., Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray*2
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2007-09-16, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2006
- Location
- Tortuga
- Gender
Re: You have chosen... poorly
Yeah. Especially with the Devoted Spirit Legacy weapon - swift action restoration. Burn all but 1 of your con, kill something really big, get all that con straight back again. Or just have the cleric just ready an action.
Being flatfooted usually isn't a problem, anyway (especially for a high-con Crusader), unless you're fighting several rogue-type characters.I WILL round this Cape, even if I have to keep sailing until doomsday!
Engaged in A Spat with Jibar.
Devil Lord-to-be and proud member of the Baatezu Lovers club!SpoilerSpoilerDecken by CeikaSpoiler
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2007-09-16, 07:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Gold Coast, Australia
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Re: You have chosen... poorly
On the top of my head, Shield spell. Unless in very specific circumstances, Mage Armor is just plainly better- it grants the same AC bonus, but lasts for hours/level instead of minute/level.
Flaming Sphere always struck me as lack lustre; 2d6 fire damage, reflex negates? I'll pass, give me a scorching ray.Last edited by Nebo_; 2007-09-16 at 07:12 AM.
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2007-09-16, 07:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Poland
- Gender
Re: You have chosen... poorly
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2007-09-16, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: You have chosen... poorly
I found that pretty much all of the feats that give +2 to a bunch of skills, or +3 to a single skill, or +2 to a saving throw, or +3 hit points, are generally not worth it, because there are far better feats to take, and in the long run those bonuses are insignificant.
Regarding spells... For wizards they may be ok because more spells never hurt, but for bards and sorcs with their spell limits, these are bad choices:
Hold portal. Detect undead. Burning hands. Magic aura. Animate rope. Erase. Magic weapon. Arcane lock. Obscure object. Darkness. Magic mouth. Misdirection. Phantom trap. Darkvision. Pyrotechnics.
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2007-09-16, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- London...In America
- Gender
Re: You have chosen... poorly
Detect Undead - yay I can tell if something is a zombie.
Combat Casting - it's called Skill Focus: Concentration.Own it, pwn it, nuke it, sheep it, eat it, quick re -right it, Joe it, turn it, turnip, pimp it, gimp it, dot it, rock it, spec re - spec it...
I'm bringing smexy back
As a Warblade, I'm pimp as hell.
Big up kpenguin for the chronic Avatar.
Powergaming - because you can't roleplay when your dead.
(\__/)
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2007-09-16, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
- Gender
Re: You have chosen... poorly
The Samurai base class out of CW?
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2007-09-16, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- London...In America
- Gender
Re: You have chosen... poorly
Own it, pwn it, nuke it, sheep it, eat it, quick re -right it, Joe it, turn it, turnip, pimp it, gimp it, dot it, rock it, spec re - spec it...
I'm bringing smexy back
As a Warblade, I'm pimp as hell.
Big up kpenguin for the chronic Avatar.
Powergaming - because you can't roleplay when your dead.
(\__/)
(O.o )
(> < ) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him dominate the World
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2007-09-16, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- where dreams are made
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Re: You have chosen... poorly
great cleave by the time you get it you won't be able to kill things in 1 hit
2 weapon fighting a -minus to attack and half str for off hand
any amour ARMOR PROFICIENCY feats if your class does not have it you should not try wearing itSpoiler
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2007-09-16, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
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- By a Park
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2007-09-16, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
- Location
- Germany
Re: You have chosen... poorly
Maybe...but
1. there are some classes that have access to Armor Proficiency and are able to cast Arcane spells. They can wear Light Armor and cast Shield on top of it.
2. Your entire point is void anyway. Even if 1) wasn't valid, Shield would still be inferior only in the same sense that Greater Skill Focus is worse than Skill Focus. You use it only if you have already Mage Armor, but if you already have Mage Armor, it further enhances the effect.
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2007-09-16, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: You have chosen... poorly
For some types of low level skill-monkey (such as those built around using one specific skill very well), those feats are near-requirements, especially any that go against a contested roll (bluff, sleight of hand), and anything you need working first time, every time, like UMD and tumble. For anyone trying to play a Truenamer, Skill focus (truenaming) is an essential to have any chance at success.
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2007-09-16, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
Re: You have chosen... poorly
Skill Focus (concentration) is invaluable to a Diamond Mind adept.
Thanks to Veera for the avatar.
I keep my stories in a blog. You should read them.
5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist
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2007-09-16, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2004
- Location
- Enterprise, Alabama
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Re: You have chosen... poorly
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2007-09-16, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2005
- Location
- Earth
Re: You have chosen... poorly
I actually like Arcane Lock. Especially if you get it made into an at will item. It's kinda expensive (12,000 GP) but it can be worth it if you can get someone to make it at cost (6,000 GP).
As you move through a dungeon or castle you Arcane Lock every door behind you. And it's always nice to keep a little Dust of Locking around, 300 GP for a use activated 1 time use item of Arcane Lock.
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2007-09-16, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
- Location
- Poland
- Gender
Re: You have chosen... poorly
I belive I covered that in "specific cases" part.
2. Your entire point is void anyway. Even if 1) wasn't valid, Shield would still be inferior only in the same sense that Greater Skill Focus is worse than Skill Focus. You use it only if you have already Mage Armor, but if you already have Mage Armor, it further enhances the effect.My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2007-09-16, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
- Location
- Germany
Re: You have chosen... poorly
OK, this is where I give up. Whatever scenario I present you, you will add it to the "list of specific cases" So far the list of "very specific circumstances" as you called it, extends to:
1. Arcane casters with Armor Proficiency
2. Casters who want additional +4 on top
I'll add 3: Creating a potion for your Melee friend.
But yeah...you are right. Except for these ridiculously specific circumstances you are right. I'll leave it at that.
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2007-09-16, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
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- Vermont
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Re: You have chosen... poorly
Um, floating disk? Has anyone ever used that spell? Mount is a better spell, and a light horse can carry up to 175 lbs. and still move 40 ft.
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2007-09-16, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2006
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- Poland
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Re: You have chosen... poorly
Duskblades, Bards and Hexblades. None of whom, I might add, get any of these two spells. Oh right, Beguilers get Mage Armor. But they don't get Shield.
2. Casters who want additional +4 on top
I'll add 3: Creating a potion for your Melee friend.Last edited by Morty; 2007-09-16 at 11:33 AM.
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2007-09-16, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: You have chosen... poorly
Truenaming and concentrations are sensible exceptions. For skill monkeys, the operative word is "low level". By the time you reach level four or five, you're going to wish you had spent all (both) of your feats on things that remain useful on higher levels. I would say that if a character is not reliant on skills, the +2 is going to be irrelevant; whereas if the character is reliant on skills, the +2 is insignificant. You get way, way more skill points than feats; spending one feat for 3 or 4 skill points is a waste.
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2007-09-16, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2005
- Location
- Laughing with the sinners
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Re: You have chosen... poorly
I think this is very campaign specific. If you are playing a skillmonkey, and rely on a few skills constantly, Skill Focus or one of the "+2 to two skills" feats can be worth it. That's as good a bonus as +4 or +6 to the relevant stat. And that bonus never goes away, so it's not really wasted at high level. Beating a Beholder's Spot check is not easy, even for a suitably high level Rogue, sometimes it does come down to winning or losing by a point or two.
In straightforward, combat oriented campaigns, skills matter much less and I see your point. In stealth, investigation or political campaigns, this can be vital.
I still say it's a better use of a feat than Toughness.
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2007-09-16, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
- Location
- Central Texas
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Re: You have chosen... poorly
And Beguilers also get Light Armor Proficiency, if I remember correctly, and Mage Armor gets useless after a Chain Shirt. You also forgot Warmages, Dread Necromancers, and any Caster with a level of Spelltheif who took the feat that allows Light Armor.
Actually, come to think of it, Wizards, Sorcerers, ad Wu Jen are the only ones who don't get to wear armor. It seems a greater majority of arcane casters get to now. Also, any of these classes regret Mage Armor as soon as they get a +1 Twighlight Mithral Shirt, or until they take a level of Spelltheif and the proper feat.
Oh, and Battle Sorcerer, from UA, is effectively a Sorcerer who gets Light Armor as well.
However, it's kinda hard to find a Shield that gives +4 AC. Tower Shields do, but they're big an bulky. You'd need a +3 Light Shield, or a +2 Heavy Shield to get that, which are both out of reach for low level players.
Again, though, regret comes when the player can afford a +3 Mithral Buckler, though that comes considerably more expensive than a +1 Twighlight Mithral Shirt (or just a +1 Chain Shirt, if you can wear light armor.)If there's a rule, there's someone out there trying to figure out how to get around it just to piss off his DM.
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2007-09-16, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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- Back in the USSR
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Re: You have chosen... poorly
First, I don't think any classes get both. If you want to deal damage as a Druid before getting wildshape, you're probably casting this. There's also the fact that it lasts multiple rounds as mentioned above.
Also on the Shield vs. Mage Armor debate: it's a lot easier to get a magical armor bonus from an item (Bracers of Armor), which wouldn't stack with MA, than it is to get a shield bonus. To my knowledge, the only way to get the latter is through a custom item, and whether you can get it is therefore 100% DM dependent.
The point is, Shield stacks with core items and is therefore more useful at higher levels than Mage Armor. Mage Armor is probably still more useful at lower levels.Spoiler
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2007-09-16, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: You have chosen... poorly
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2007-09-16, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- New York, USA
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Re: You have chosen... poorly