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Thread: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
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2007-10-18, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Okay, I've been doing a bit of thinking on how the Tarrasque is supposed to be some ultimate engine of destruction. Except...it's really not. I mean, sure, it's dangerous, but it really shouldn't be that hard to track down and kill. Here's why.
First off, the big T can't teleport, planeshift, or do anything else that would make it impossible to locate the thing's lair.
Second, the Tarrasque is big. Very big. That means it's obvious, especially considering its tendency toward eating everything in its path. It would be relatively easy to find out where the Tarrasque has been, just piecing together info from rumors and legends.
Third, the Tarrasque spends most of its time sleeping in its lair.
Fourth, it's slow. Even assuming it uses its Rush ability as often as possible and doesn't stop or slow down for anything, it can still only move at 330 feet/minute. Its normal waking time is 1d3 days. That means that at most, the furthest the Tarrasque can go in one cycle is *does some math* 11.25 miles. Now keep in mind that it needs to go back to its lair to sleep. 11.25/2=5.625 miles maximum distance from its lair. This, of course, assumes that it always stays awake for the maximum length, and that it moves at maximum speed the whole time.
Now, to find the big T, all you have to do is find the last place it was seen, and then work outward from there. You have at minimum 6 months to search an area of at most 100 square miles to find something the size of a five-story building. As for major cover? Forget it. Anything that would hide it, like trees, large rocks, etc, would have been eaten on one of Tarrasque's feeding frenzies. It'll probably be, at worst, gentle scrub and hills.
This should make finding the Tarrasque's lair fairly simple. And when you find it, it'll be sleeping. As for killing it, well, there have been numerous ways suggested to go about doing that, so I won't bother talking about it. Suffice to say that it should get far easier when you can take the fight to it.
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2007-10-18, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Well the Tarrasque basically sucks, that's an established fact, essentially.
What makes Big T dangerous is honestly you should never just run into him or find his lair, no no no...
Ideally you should never even hear of the Tarrasque except in legend..... and in rumor that the BBEG is going to wake him up and kill everyone.
Cut to epic battle vs. BBEG:
BBEG finishes ritual *just* as PC's (barely) defeat the villain's minions. Big T goes buck wild and the PCs get to fight him on the DM/BBEG's terms, in a place of their choosing, with depleted resources.
Then Big T is well worth his CR.
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2007-10-18, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-18, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Tarrasque is only the strongest monster in the Monster Manual because Dragons have their own table. Otherwise he's a joke.
Though shivering touch can turn dragons into a joke as well."that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft
When a man decides another's future behind his back, it is a conspiracy. When a god does it, it's destiny.
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2007-10-18, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
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2007-10-18, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-18, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
I think the point is that if the Tarrasque needs that sort of set-up to be effective, then it's a pretty weak monster.
I am a poor man, some say I’m half crazy,
son of the sword and the knife
Lady I pledge you my sword and my honor,
my heart and my pride and my life
--Bella Doña, by Joe Bethancourt
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Alas, poor Draknir. By Mephibosheth
Owl-atar by KingGolem
You will be missed, dear 'stache...
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2007-10-18, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
I'm reading the Tarrasque entry in the Hypertext D20 Open Source (here) and I can't help but wonder how exactly can it be considered easy to take on. I'm not even saying "a joke". That is just a manner of saying that it's not that impossible.
The bastard has almost a 1000 HP, better initiative than most PCs, and each and every attack he does is almost an automatic hit with insane amounts of damage.
A DC 36 Will save is what you have to pass not to pee your pants the momet you see / hear him and he's pretty much immune to everything...
Possibly because I've never run a game above the 10th level (for the PCs) and challenges were proportional, but I fail to understand how the Big T is a Joke. Le alone for the fact you don't just find his lair by following rumors, since there is no one left alive to tell them, even in a simple pit fight, cages open and release the Tarrasque and 4 high level PCs into a 300 yards wide arena, with time to buff up with all the possible casting and summoning, beating the Tarrasque should still make it an epic, once-in-a-1000-years accomplishment. He's literally Godzilla from Inoshiro Honda's imagination. Size matters, they say, and also the fact that it took 12 Maverick Air-to-Ground missiles dead on the side to take the lizard down.
So, unless we are talking about a group of four 20th level PC with proportional equipment, which would still be "moderate difficulty" and not a joke, the Tarrasque rules. Also because in my power scale four 20th level PCs = the Gold Saints from Athens descended from the Great Tample and decided to save mankind from extinction.
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2007-10-18, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
If you let me go outside of core, I can beat him at level seven. Reliably by level nine or so.
But then, it's a pretty cheap trick.I am a poor man, some say I’m half crazy,
son of the sword and the knife
Lady I pledge you my sword and my honor,
my heart and my pride and my life
--Bella Doña, by Joe Bethancourt
Spoiler
Alas, poor Draknir. By Mephibosheth
Owl-atar by KingGolem
You will be missed, dear 'stache...
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2007-10-18, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
The difference is that you're looking at CR including factors that increase the difficulty of an encounter while he is looking at the base CR. Technically, he is right, as the factors you mentioned increase CR and thus, if the Tarrasque has the right CR only after other factors make it harder, its base CR is too high.
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2007-10-18, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-18, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
- It cannot fly
- It has no range attacks
Ergo:
- It dies if pitted against a level 20 partyEin gutes Gedicht ist nicht dazu da, die Welt zu verbessern – es ist selbst ein Stück verbesserte Welt.
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2007-10-18, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
No, technically the other factors increase the overall EL of the situation. The CR of the Tarrasque does not change unless it gets Templated, extra HDs etc.
My point was that the Tarrasque is a powerful and deadly monster and at it's CR is worth it, you just have to make the characters fight it on DM terms, not Player fantasy land theoretical optimization terms. Yes, a low level Wizard can kill the Tarrasque. In theory. In practice though.... it should not happen.
And the Tarrasques CR is fine where it is. I'm sure anyone can pull off a one in a million theoretical kill, with a lot of stipulations like "Oh and I need 500000 more GP than I should have at this level"; ask that Fighter, Warblade, Hexblade, pretty much every class that relies on melee, if the Tarrasqe is CR 20 and for the most part they would say "No, it should be CR 30, it's impossible"; so yeah, woopity doo. You can use player knowledge (cheat, essentially) to beat a monster. Good Job.
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2007-10-18, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
The Tarrasque sleeps for 6d4 months at a time, and then wakes up for 1d3 days to eat. It's not hostile, just hungry. If you're flying, have a decent head start on it (which, considering that the area around T's lair is more than likely going to be relatively flat, isn't too improbable-how hard is it to spot something the size of a small castle?), and/or are lucky, there's a decent chance you'll be able to escape alive. Or you could just find the area where people and towns keep disappearing with no trace, and a few divinations/legend lores should let you figure it out.
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2007-10-18, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
And I could beat him at level 4 (or was it 5?)...with a kobold divine minion. I'm happy that you can put together a level 9 character that can reliably find a way to deal almost 900 points of damage followed by a miracle in one round. the fact that you must optimize to that point probably says something about it's power. Also, any self respecting DM who really wanted to challenge a 20th level party would give the Tarrasque some sort of way to make it be able to deal with flying foes (such as say, templating it to have wings.
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2007-10-18, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-18, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
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My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2007-10-18, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Well, in a core only game, the Tarrasque is pretty tough, but I agree. It is not as hard as it is made out to be. Now a winged paragon pseudonatural tarrasque? That might be a challenge.
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The main question that any DM should ask before making a house-rule or exception is, "Is it balanced?"
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2007-10-18, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
30-headed-half-fiend-pseudonatural-god-blooded-void-mind-winged-pyro-tarrasque of legend
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2007-10-18, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-18, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
My build isn't that cheesy, really. It's cheap in that it doesn't take many resources for what it accomplishes. It''s nothing you couldn't see in actual play.
And the build doesn't do 900 points of damage and it doesn't use miracle or wish. Why would I want to do that? That would kill the Tarrasque.Last edited by Jack Mann; 2007-10-18 at 03:14 PM.
I am a poor man, some say I’m half crazy,
son of the sword and the knife
Lady I pledge you my sword and my honor,
my heart and my pride and my life
--Bella Doña, by Joe Bethancourt
Spoiler
Alas, poor Draknir. By Mephibosheth
Owl-atar by KingGolem
You will be missed, dear 'stache...
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2007-10-18, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
In my games I have always used the Tarrasuqe as my ace in the hole. If for whatever reason I have to pull it out then the party is going down even if I have to pull out some other tricks. Maybe the Tarrasque can't get the job done in some situations but it is always a sign of certin and impending doom.
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2007-10-18, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-18, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-18, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-18, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Level nine just gives me a few more defenses (i. e. ways to stay the hell away from it) and tries. My build revolves around Summon Undead IV and V. I summon allips.
The Tarrasque is immune to ability damage, but not ability drain. I sic the allips on him. 14 points of wisdom drain later (six hits on average), and he's down.
Granted, he'll get attacks of opportunity on the allips. But since they're incorporeal, he'll only be hitting half the time (and wouldn't hit even that often if his natural weapons didn't count as magical).
EDIT: Oh, and the good news? He's still alive and regenerating. Nothing kills him. You canharvestmine tarrasque steaks for the rest of your days.Last edited by Jack Mann; 2007-10-18 at 03:36 PM.
I am a poor man, some say I’m half crazy,
son of the sword and the knife
Lady I pledge you my sword and my honor,
my heart and my pride and my life
--Bella Doña, by Joe Bethancourt
Spoiler
Alas, poor Draknir. By Mephibosheth
Owl-atar by KingGolem
You will be missed, dear 'stache...
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2007-10-18, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-10-18, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
I am sure. Ability damage and ability drain are two different things. For one thing, you can heal ability damage. Ability drain stays until someone casts restoration.
I am a poor man, some say I’m half crazy,
son of the sword and the knife
Lady I pledge you my sword and my honor,
my heart and my pride and my life
--Bella Doña, by Joe Bethancourt
Spoiler
Alas, poor Draknir. By Mephibosheth
Owl-atar by KingGolem
You will be missed, dear 'stache...
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2007-10-18, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Nope, ability damage and drain are two very seperate things, each defined clearly. They are both listed in immunities seperately, so if it's not specifically immune to ability drain, it's not immune to ability drain. E.g.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain.
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2007-10-18, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the Tarrasque
Wow. I forgot to multiply by 24. That was embarrassing. That significantly increases the area a party would need to search. To over 200000 square miles. However, natural terrain would probably significantly lessen that, and the fact that realistically if you're planning on beating the Tarrasque, you'll probably have flight capability, and how hard would it be to look for a hole in the ground big enough to fit something as big as the Tarrasque?