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2009-05-05, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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[4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
I was thinking about the implications of the yet-to-be-revealed power sources today, and Ki in particular got me thinking. When it's come down to discussion, there's been speculation along the lines of Ninja as a Ki striker, Samurai as a defender or leader, and monk as various things (usually a striker or defender, but sometimes even a controller).
But rarely are any of the (other) Oriental Adventures classes mentioned. Wu Jen happens to be arcane in 3.5, while the shugenga is divine, but there's no reason one (or both) couldn't be folded into the Ki power source, filling the controller or leader gap.
But that's not actually my point. My point is that whenever the Ki power source is released, it'll likely give PHB# a very oriental bent. Is it possible WotC would take this chance to update Oriental Adventures stuff? While they probably won't update the actual campaign setting (I don't even know if they still have the rights to it), what's to stop them from statting out Spirit Folk, Vanara, or Hengeyokai? Or all the fairly unique weapons that were in OA? Not to mention the Asian-flavored Paragon Paths.
Basically, this is a roundabout way of asking if this has even slightly been hinted at or anything, or am I just making wild speculations? I don't keep up with Wizard's updates or announcements too closely, so I may be completely off-base here.
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2009-05-07, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Well, I don't have D&DI and I haven't been to the WotC web site much since they started requiring subscriptions for the magazines, but I haven't heard anything at all about the Ki power source except for the fact that there will be one. AFAIK, everything else is speculation.
I think it is pretty reasonable to assume that whichever PHB #N the Ki power source is released in will also contain Ki-themed equipment, magic items, and Paragon Paths & Epic Destinies. If so, then MM #N will probably contain some Ki-themed monsters as well. But I don't think there's been any official word about any of that.
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2009-05-07, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
We'll definitely know on Monday everything about the Monk that we want to know. There's a Playtest article on the Monk coming out that day, so it'll tell us power source, role, and a stuff like that.
As far as knowing about PHB3, I'm not sure it'll be TOTALLY focused on the Ki power source, but there'll be some Oriental stuff there, I'd think. Maybe not Hengeyoki or anything way outside the norm, but you'll probably see some PPs, EDs, and stuff that have definite Asian influences. How much of the book is focused on that I can't say, but I figure it'll be about like PHB2's - a little more on the new source (Primal), but in general pretty well-balanced regarding the other sources, too.The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
Homebrew:
• "Themes of Ansalon" - A 4E Dragonlance Supplement
• Homebrew Compendium
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2009-05-07, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Yeah, I'm finding it hard to wait for Monday to role around (who has ever said that before?)
But... I don't think we'll see more primal classes in the PHB3, they've got all the classics down (Druid and Barb) an odd reboot of one class (Shaman) and a totally new class (Warden) ... that only leaves newer classes and the only thing I can think of them bringing in would be a Totemist-like striker. Maybe PHB3 will have the 'unarmed' classes?
My hope is that the PHB3 introduces Ki (or whatever the monk may be) and Psionics.
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2009-05-07, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
It's been speculated that each PHB will follow the 4-2-2 formula. Four classes from one power source, and two classes each from two other power sources, fleshing out a full 4 PHB classes for each power source. Both the PHB1 and PHB2 followed this pattern.
If PHB3 follows accordingly, that means that it would have three new power sources. Most likely Ki, Psionic, and one other (Shadow, Elemental, etc.).You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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2009-05-07, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
I think that they will essentially take all the old "oriental" classes and make them Ki-based.
Defender: Samurai
Striker: Ninja, Monk
Leader: Shugenja
Controller: Wu Jen
It just occurred to me that in my experience (having played as or in a party with, all the above classes), all 5 of those classes were really bad in 3.5 -- hopefully they will change that in 4e.
My buddy who loves playing monks will certainly have a field day with a monk that doesn't suck. As much scorn is heaped upon the 3.5 monk, the 1e monk was so much worse. You couldn't wear armor, and you didn't get your dex to AC; your AC was whatever it said in the class progression. Level 1 monks had 2d4 hp and 10 AC, with absolutely no way of upping that. For comparison, a garden-variety Orc you might fight at lvl 1 had 1d8+1 hp and did about as much damage when he hit, which meant that a single blow from an orc was probably going to kill any level 1 monk it hit...needless to say, there weren't a whole lot of level 2 monks
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2009-05-08, 01:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Yeah, I wasn't trying to say there'll be new Primal classes in PHB3, but that the new type (Ki) would be the focus, with some support for older sources. Jax just said it a lot better.
I think that would make sense - Ki is definitely in, and since Eberron is the main setting for 2009 (Player's Guide in July and Campaign Guide in August, I think?), Psionics, which are so important in Eberron, will probably be out soon after.The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
Homebrew:
• "Themes of Ansalon" - A 4E Dragonlance Supplement
• Homebrew Compendium
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2009-05-09, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
I agree that Ki will look something like:
Defender: Samurai
Striker: Monk
Controller: Wu Jen
Leader: Shugenja
and I think Psionics will be something like:
Defender: Psychic Warrior
Striker: Soulknife
Controller: Psion
Leader: Argent
IMHO, PH3 will either be:
Monk, Samurai, Wu Jen, Shugenja, Psion, Psychic Warrior, Necromancer, Shadowcaster
OR
Monk, Samurai, Psion, Psychic Warrior, Soulknife, Argent, Necromancer, Shadowcaster
Depending on whether they decided to make it a Ki focus or a Psionics focus. Oriental-Adventures-type-stuff, like special weapons and Oriental-themed PPs and EDs, will probably come in the form of a "Ki Power" book.
Side note: People are theorizing that the originally announced "Elemental" Power Source is too similar in concept to Arcane, and will not feel unique. If WotC listens (or has already listened) and needs a new power source, my money goes to Incarnum.My Homebrew
Currently DMing: Heroes on a Sea of Swords - IC - OOC - OOC II - OOC III
Many thanks to the very talented Kymme for making an Avatar of my incredibly-specific D&D character!
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2009-05-09, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Yeah, I could see that. Arcane is a pretty ill-defined power source, and I would welcome Incarnum. I didn't ever play an Incarnum user in 3.5, but the idea of powering magic with the power of souls seems too cool to ignore, in addition to being a wholly unique power source idea.
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2009-05-09, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
The Shugenja, even though it is one of the weakest full casters in the game, is not weak per se, as it is still a full caster. The same goes for the Wu Jen, except that it is quite a bit more powerful than the Shugenja, since it is simply a Wizard variant albeit a slightly weakened one.
Last edited by JaxGaret; 2009-05-09 at 06:03 PM.
You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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2009-05-09, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Elemental makes sense since it allows them to sell one additional PHB with 8 classes. what could Monk use as their Main Attribute?
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2009-05-09, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-09, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Monks would use Wisdom as their main attribute, I imagine.
Thanks to Veera for the avatar.
I keep my stories in a blog. You should read them.
5E Sorcerous Origin: Arcanist
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2009-05-09, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
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2009-05-09, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Yeah, I'm thinking (at least looking at a lot of PHB2 classes), that you'll probably have a primary stat (Wisdom) and then a choice of which secondary (Str or Dex). Or maybe Str primary and Dex/Wis secondary, but then it seems too close to being just a Martial class.
Either way, we'll know in about 26 hours, I imagine - I think they've been good about getting most articles up between 12:00 and 1:00am EST on the day they're supposed to come out.Last edited by RTGoodman; 2009-05-09 at 09:21 PM.
The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
Homebrew:
• "Themes of Ansalon" - A 4E Dragonlance Supplement
• Homebrew Compendium
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2009-05-09, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Here's to hoping Monks will be controllers... That's really the way I see them, 4e-wise!
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2009-05-10, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
My girlfriend(non-gamer) after watching me play an RPG on the Xbox: "So, you're just killing people and taking their stuff?"
Me-.....Right!
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2009-05-10, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Well, WotC seems to agree with you. In the Converting Your Character series of articles, they suggested the following way for playing a Monk before the actual class come out in 4E:
SpoilerMonk
At a glance, the player with a 3E monk might think that he’s out of luck until the 4E monk releases—there’s no unarmored, unarmed melee fighter option anywhere in the Player’s Handbook. However, with your DM’s permission you can create a martial-arts striker who captures much of the monk’s style by following this process:
1. Choose the two-blade ranger build (p104). (Don’t worry, this will make sense in a minute.)
2. Give up your leather and hide armor proficiencies, gaining a +3 bonus to AC when wearing no armor or cloth armor. You’re now only a point behind the normal ranger’s AC.
3. Gain a +2 bonus to Will defense (in addition to the ranger’s normal defense bonuses).
4. Replace Dungeoneering and Nature on your class skill list with Arcana, Diplomacy, Insight, and Religion. Choose five trained skills from your class list.
5. Give up your martial weapon proficiencies. Grant your unarmed strike a +3 proficiency bonus, increase the damage to 1d8, and add the off-hand property. Now you’re wielding two melee weapons that are as good as the martial melee options available to the ranger.
6. Rename Hunter’s Quarry as Monastic Battle Focus, and lose the Prime Shot class feature. (You thought you were getting that +2 bonus to Will for free, didn’t you?)
7. Focus on mobility-oriented powers, particularly those that reward a high Wisdom score (such as evasive strike, yield ground, and weave through the fray). As desired, you can rename those powers with a flavor that befits your monkish heritage (peerless balance of the crane instead of fox’s cunning, for example).
8. Pick up feats to recreate other 3E monk class features—Evasion, Fleet-Footed, Long Jumper—and use multiclass feats (p209) to replicate the supernatural features. For example, the warlock has several teleportation powers reminiscent of abundant step.
This doesn’t faithfully recreate every element of the 3E monk, but it’s definitely a reasonable stopgap if you’re really committed to sticking with the character.
We'll see how it goes in about 9 hours. I'm not sure what the role could be - if there's a Ninja in Ki, that could be the Striker and leave Monk as a Controller. But, if they save Ninja for Shadow or just don't have it, then Monk is probably the Ki Striker.The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
Homebrew:
• "Themes of Ansalon" - A 4E Dragonlance Supplement
• Homebrew Compendium
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2009-05-10, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
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2009-05-10, 08:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Oh, yeah, I totally agree about that, but I'm not sure there'd be much sense in having a source-role repeat. It's happened before (Rogue, Ranger; Artificer, Bard), but each of those has kind of a niche role. They'd have to really do something to differentiate between Monk and Ninja as Ki strikers in order to really necessitate having both.
Last edited by RTGoodman; 2009-05-10 at 08:30 PM.
The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
Homebrew:
• "Themes of Ansalon" - A 4E Dragonlance Supplement
• Homebrew Compendium
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2009-05-10, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Yeah, I was just using the Ninja/Monk thing as an example. I see all the Ki classes as being primarily melee with maybe some ranged weapon attacks, but certainly none of the zone-making ranged burst attacks that seem to be the bread and butter of Controllers.
Also... 2 hours and change till we see the monk (prototype).Last edited by Asbestos; 2009-05-10 at 08:43 PM.
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2009-05-10, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Monk - unarmed disciplined kung-fu master that plays more like a Ranger/Swordmage with lots of extra attacks and a juicy unarmoured defensive bonus and some decent control/defense powers, depending on build.
Ninja - secretive, stealthy exotic warrior that plays more like a Rogue/Avenger, with good accuracy and bonus damage but low base damage, with some interesting combo attacks. Plays like a pure, lone-wolf striker.
Would those be different enough to merit them being a source/role repeat?
EDIT: Also, in the timezone from which WotC operates, won't it be Monday in 6 hours, not 2?Last edited by Shadow_Elf; 2009-05-10 at 08:56 PM.
My Homebrew
Currently DMing: Heroes on a Sea of Swords - IC - OOC - OOC II - OOC III
Many thanks to the very talented Kymme for making an Avatar of my incredibly-specific D&D character!
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2009-05-11, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
So.
With monks being psionic, I've been thinking again. The wu jen and shugenga actually could both easily fit into Elemental, while ninja sounds perfect for the Shadow power source. Since the samurai is going to be more of a template type thing, we don't have to worry about it's power source.
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2009-05-11, 01:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
Someone mentions in the Monk Playtest thread that the Ki power source has been shelved.
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2009-05-11, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-11, 07:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
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2009-05-11, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Ruminating on the Ki power source and Oriental Adventures
SpoilerBossing Around Mad Cats for Fun and Profit: Let's Play MechCommander 2!
Kicking this LP into overdrive: Let's Play StarCraft 2!