tuckers kobolds

[Starbuck_II]

Mines Flood.

Kobolds live in Mines. Kobolds haven't all drowned to Death.

I suspect that Kobolds might have taken some time to work out how to make their mine not flood.

But mines usually only flood after they are closed.
http://www.hrc.nrcce.wvu.edu/mhyd1.htm

So if the kobolds are not lazy, there wouldn't be flooding. If they are lazy, then they are not Tucker's Kobolds.

[sonofzeal]

Pits have a finite capacity. Eventually they fill up and the water continues to flood the place.

Pits drain. Unless it's specifically lined, or below the water level, stuff will drain out of it. The bigger the shaft, the faster it'll drain.

Assuming every kobold can always get behind a pit before just dying at first contact with the poison gas cloud.

Not every Kobold, but we're talking about a whole colony here, and the "advantage" of Cloudkill is in trying to have it roll through and wipe out the whole warren. I'm saying that's not feasible; you might kill a few, but it's a fifth level spell, and if your fifth level spell is only killing 3-6 kobolds then you're doing something wrong.

Not bunching up eliminates the threat of 20 kobolds having a line of fire to "guarantee" a hit every round.
An endless stream of replacements just proves they are nothing but a grudge monster.

It's attrition either way. You don't need to guarantee a hit every round, and you don't even need 20 kobolds for that. Tuckers Kobolds usually rely heavily on grenade-style weapons, Acid and Alchemists Fire and Molotov Cocktails and poisons and other ranged touch attacks. Unlike magical gear, these become really cost efficient when you can make your own, especially if you assume that they can acquire the raw materials naturally.

With a pit trap to prevent the decanter of endless water being poked out to extinguish the fire?

You know, I've been playing D&D for about eight years now, and I've never actually seen someone with a Decanter of Endless Water on their character sheet. I'm not disputing that it's a good item, or that it deserves to be used, but I wouldn't count on heroes, even fairly well prepared ones, always having it. Even at tenth level, 9000 gp is a heavy chunk of a character's budget, roughly a fifth of their total worth.

For every pit they excavate, they are not excavating another room to live in.
Firewood grows really, really, really, poorly underground.
Having an "endless stream of replacements" for either just adds another level of absurdity to it being a grudge monster.

Kobolds are miners, they've got hundreds of hands and feet in the colony. They're not going to be short on manpower, unlikely to be short on space, and have the time and resources to bring in wood from outside to make cabinates and beds and desks and whatnot, and then throw it on a fire because, hey, losing a desk is worth it to smoke out some filthy genocidal adventurers.

[Tiktakkat]

They didn't JUST move in you know?
Well, most likely they didn't

And?
The humans did not just move in either. I guess all of their farms are protected by mega-traps too, making it impossible for the kobolds to come and eat their babies.
Nor did the orcs. I guess their lair is completely unassailable too.
Although I thought the orcs conquered their lair from the dwarves that had lived there for hundreds of years. How could they have done that? Are dwarves lazier and less competent miners than kobolds?

Pits drain. Unless it's specifically lined, or below the water level, stuff will drain out of it. The bigger the shaft, the faster it'll drain.

Pits do not drain instantly.
Even fast drains can get clogged.
Water tables can become full.

Not every Kobold, but we're talking about a whole colony here, and the "advantage" of Cloudkill is in trying to have it roll through and wipe out the whole warren. I'm saying that's not feasible; you might kill a few, but it's a fifth level spell, and if your fifth level spell is only killing 3-6 kobolds then you're doing something wrong.

That is why I would not bother with cloudkill, but that is another story.
However, the point stands. Since these are supposed to be super-replicating kobolds that can only be stopped by wholesale slaughter, there are going to be areas not protected by endless pits and the like, places like closed dormitories for all those replacement kobolds. You will get more than 3-6 in such an area.

It's attrition either way. You don't need to guarantee a hit every round, and you don't even need 20 kobolds for that. Tuckers Kobolds usually rely heavily on grenade-style weapons, Acid and Alchemists Fire and Molotov Cocktails and poisons and other ranged touch attacks. Unlike magical gear, these become really cost efficient when you can make your own, especially if you assume that they can acquire the raw materials naturally.

You can handwave a lot of such assumptions, but that pretty much makes it clear that the concept of a reasonable challenge has been thrown out the window.
You had noticed that, right?
All these ways for the kobolds to survive has taken this from beyond anything even vaguely resembling a balanced set of encounters, and thrown it completely into Tomb of Horrors territory. Seriously, why not just say the lair is full of spheres of annihilation in grinning mouths, or doorways filled with mist that teleport kobold's safely, but dump other races out naked if you are going to go that far?
And when you do go that far, remember also that even the Tomb of Horrors has been beaten.

And as it happens, the counter for that is a few bolts of silk and the unseen servant spell.
Servant holds up the silk to form a barrier, barrier requires a separate attack to breach.
So much for ranged touch attacks.

You know, I've been playing D&D for about eight years now, and I've never actually seen someone with a Decanter of Endless Water on their character sheet. I'm not disputing that it's a good item, or that it deserves to be used, but I wouldn't count on heroes, even fairly well prepared ones, always having it. Even at tenth level, 9000 gp is a heavy chunk of a character's budget, roughly a fifth of their total worth.

The kobolds have an unlimited budget, the PCs should get one too.

Kobolds are miners, they've got hundreds of hands and feet in the colony. They're not going to be short on manpower, unlikely to be short on space, and have the time and resources to bring in wood from outside to make cabinates and beds and desks and whatnot, and then throw it on a fire because, hey, losing a desk is worth it to smoke out some filthy genocidal adventurers.

No, sorry, all forests have been inhabited by elves for hundreds of years, and are protected by kobold-proof traps. No wood for any filthy lizard wannabes!
And really, if they are spending all their time digging endless pits with super-ultra-drainage systems, and making a 10 year siege suppy of alchemical nasties, then they just might actually be a tad short on lizardpower.

[sonofzeal]

Pits do not drain instantly.
Even fast drains can get clogged.
Water tables can become full.

PCs can't compete with all natural drainage system. You'd need a really cohesive effort to even threaten it, let along make fast enough progress to make it really matter. How many Decanters are we talking about?

That is why I would not bother with cloudkill, but that is another story.
However, the point stands. Since these are supposed to be super-replicating kobolds that can only be stopped by wholesale slaughter, there are going to be areas not protected by endless pits and the like, places like closed dormitories for all those replacement kobolds. You will get more than 3-6 in such an area.

Point, but by that time you've probably won anyway.

You can handwave a lot of such assumptions, but that pretty much makes it clear that the concept of a reasonable challenge has been thrown out the window.
You had noticed that, right?
All these ways for the kobolds to survive has taken this from beyond anything even vaguely resembling a balanced set of encounters, and thrown it completely into Tomb of Horrors territory. Seriously, why not just say the lair is full of spheres of annihilation in grinning mouths, or doorways filled with mist that teleport kobold's safely, but dump other races out naked if you are going to go that far?
And when you do go that far, remember also that even the Tomb of Horrors has been beaten.

It's not really an unreasonable assumption. A molotov cocktail is fairly unreliable, but does 2d6 damage as a ranged touch attack and costs 1sp. If you're producing your own oil with appropriate craft skills, you're down to 3cp. If you give the tribe as a whole any reasonable amount of money, they can have an effectively infinite supply of the stuff.

And as it happens, the counter for that is a few bolts of silk and the unseen servant spell.
Servant holds up the silk to form a barrier, barrier requires a separate attack to breach.
So much for ranged touch attacks.

Great. That stops... one attack. Yay.

The kobolds have an unlimited budget, the PCs should get one too.

Hardly unlimited. At 3cp a pop, they're hardly expensive. Give the kobold tribe as a whole a mere 1% of the party's wealth, and you've still got 65,333 molotov cocktails, each of which does an average of 1d6 on a successful ranged touch attack (specifically, 2d6 with a 50% failure rate), plus splash. That's a massive amount of damage, and barring infinite healing tricks that'll be far more than enough to wipe out any set of adventurers I've seen. Heck, you could probably make due with much less than that, especially if they can collect duds later.

No, sorry, all forests have been inhabited by elves for hundreds of years, and are protected by kobold-proof traps. No wood for any filthy lizard wannabes!
And really, if they are spending all their time digging endless pits with super-ultra-drainage systems, and making a 10 year siege suppy of alchemical nasties, then they just might actually be a tad short on lizardpower.

You know, I'm really not sure what your point is supposed to be. What's got your hackles up about this whole thing?

[Frosty]

WHat he's asking is that is it really feasible for kobolds to spend so much of their time and effort and space and resources to mine and trap their lairs like this? Resources spent here are resources not spent on other areas...like music, art, research and develop (magic or otherwise), martial training, recreation, etc.

Is this kobold really a society that can function and flourish, doing all it needs to do to be able to stop adventurers? And if it can, aren't there better ways, since most other races survive without resorting to this (like halfling and gnomes)

[sonofzeal]

WHat he's asking is that is it really feasible for kobolds to spend so much of their time and effort and space and resources to mine and trap their lairs like this? Resources spent here are resources not spent on other areas...like music, art, research and develop (magic or otherwise), martial training, recreation, etc.

Is this kobold really a society that can function and flourish, doing all it needs to do to be able to stop adventurers? And if it can, aren't there better ways, since most other races survive without resorting to this (like halfling and gnomes)

If genocidal maniacs routinely came into your cities and started slaughtering everybody, you'd hunker down too. That's the whole point - playing kobolds like they're fighting for their lives and the lives of their families and loved ones. They're as smart as we are, know they're likely to be attacked by nigh-unstoppable killing machines, and use every tool at their disposal to try and save themselves and their tribe.

And hey, maybe this is why Kobolds aren't known for their high arts. It's not exactly breaking flavour for them if they aren't.

[Zeful]

All these ways for the kobolds to survive has taken this from beyond anything even vaguely resembling a balanced set of encounters, and thrown it completely into Tomb of Horrors territory.

That's kind of the point. You have 400 kobolds trying to stay alive by any means necessary. "Balanced Encounters" have nothing to do with survival. They will wring any advantage they can when defending their territory. Arrow slits, an endless number of simple traps, difficult terrain, small enclosed spaces, harassment, darkness, poison and spells if they can swing it.

[Milskidasith]

That's kind of the point. You have 400 kobolds trying to stay alive by any means necessary. "Balanced Encounters" have nothing to do with survival. They will wring any advantage they can when defending their territory. Arrow slits, an endless number of simple traps, difficult terrain, small enclosed spaces, harassment, darkness, poison and spells if they can swing it.

The problem is, it really isn't "kobolds" doing any fighting. It's their infinite hallway of deadly traps combined with a +X (where X is as high as the DM feels like going) terrain modifier to CR. I mean, sure, you could say it proves you can be effective with kobolds, but honestly, when you're fighting an entire cavern of Batman creatures with infinite wealth who used infinite planning and somehow managed to make an entire cave entirely made up of deadly traps, with only one (if that many) entrances into the "Main" warren, and that entrance is kobold only, yet the kobolds have unlimited reinforcements... it's not the kobold's that are doing the job, it's the difficult terrain (which is essentially a trap), the infinite traps (which are, obviously, traps), and the kobold patrols (which, since they generally rely on suprise round + dying, are basically traps).

So all it proves is that if you give kobolds nigh infinite amounts of time and resources to build a cave designed with Batman or Dwarf Fortress level contingency plans (though DF really only needs traps on the edge to survive), and that if you happen to say "there are infinite of *insert CR low monster* running the cavern" then you won't be able to kill all of them.)

[Lycanthromancer]

The problem is, it really isn't "kobolds" doing any fighting. It's their infinite hallway of deadly traps combined with a +X (where X is as high as the DM feels like going) terrain modifier to CR. I mean, sure, you could say it proves you can be effective with kobolds, but honestly, when you're fighting an entire cavern of Batman creatures with infinite wealth who used infinite planning and somehow managed to make an entire cave entirely made up of deadly traps, with only one (if that many) entrances into the "Main" warren, and that entrance is kobold only, yet the kobolds have unlimited reinforcements... it's not the kobold's that are doing the job, it's the difficult terrain (which is essentially a trap), the infinite traps (which are, obviously, traps), and the kobold patrols (which, since they generally rely on suprise round + dying, are basically traps).

So all it proves is that if you give kobolds nigh infinite amounts of time and resources to build a cave designed with Batman or Dwarf Fortress level contingency plans (though DF really only needs traps on the edge to survive), and that if you happen to say "there are infinite of *insert CR low monster* running the cavern" then you won't be able to kill all of them.)

Kobolds are known for three things (discounting Pun Pun). 1. Being draconic in nature. 2. Sorcery. And 3. Traps.

Traps are what they do. It's the only way (aside from a few low-level sorcerers) they have to defend themselves.

It's also fairly easy to make some really painful yet simple traps by using the stone they're burrowing through anyway, some wooden planks, some wooden stakes, some simple tools, some 1st level spells, and some vermin.

And it's something different, beyond "BIG MONSTER WITH A RAWR" that most encounters seem to consist of.

[sonofzeal]

The problem is, it really isn't "kobolds" doing any fighting. It's their infinite hallway of deadly traps combined with a +X (where X is as high as the DM feels like going) terrain modifier to CR. I mean, sure, you could say it proves you can be effective with kobolds, but honestly, when you're fighting an entire cavern of Batman creatures with infinite wealth who used infinite planning and somehow managed to make an entire cave entirely made up of deadly traps, with only one (if that many) entrances into the "Main" warren, and that entrance is kobold only, yet the kobolds have unlimited reinforcements... it's not the kobold's that are doing the job, it's the difficult terrain (which is essentially a trap), the infinite traps (which are, obviously, traps), and the kobold patrols (which, since they generally rely on suprise round + dying, are basically traps).

So all it proves is that if you give kobolds nigh infinite amounts of time and resources to build a cave designed with Batman or Dwarf Fortress level contingency plans (though DF really only needs traps on the edge to survive), and that if you happen to say "there are infinite of *insert CR low monster* running the cavern" then you won't be able to kill all of them.)

............so?

I mean, what do you care? It's not a game of DM vs PCs, with the DM cackling madly. "Bwaaahaaaa! I killed you all with kobolds! You suck! Bwahaahahaa!" Yeah, no.

The point is mostly that enemies played intelligently suddenly become far more effective than their "grawr I attack u" kin, and that cunning use of mundane items and setting can make up for weak stats. If you dispute this, hey, great, I'd love to hear your argument.

Otherwise, it's just a question of what level PCs a Kobold Warren is still a threat for. Personally, I think I could make them so that they could handle most groups of up to 10th level, but probably not much beyond there barring stupidity. Maybe I'm wrong, and it maxes out lower at 8th or even 6th, depending on your assumptions. Much depends on the makeup of the party, what sort of traps you use, how much resources you allow the kobolds, how much space and labour you allow them, etc.

Personally, I'd hardly use any conventional traps, I hate tripwires and pressure plates. Pit traps and other terrain hazards are fine, as are things the kobolds themselves can do (like roll heavy rocks at the party). And molotov cocktails. Lots of molotov cocktails.

[Milskidasith]

Kobolds are known for three things (discounting Pun Pun). 1. Being draconic in nature. 2. Sorcery. And 3. Traps.

Traps are what they do. It's the only way (aside from a few low-level sorcerers) they have to defend themselves.

It's also fairly easy to make some really painful yet simple traps by using the stone they're burrowing through anyway, some wooden planks, some wooden stakes, some simple tools, some 1st level spells, and some vermin.

And it's something different, beyond "BIG MONSTER WITH A RAWR" that most encounters seem to consist of.

You are ignoring the point. Traps have listed values for them. Granted, they are extremely high, but it's still a price. By giving the kobolds infinite amounts of traps, including the suggested poison, which, for the cheapest poison, is still 75 GP (or "more than a level 1 expert will see in a few years") you aren't facing kobolds. You are facing a bunch of traps that just happen to have kobolds in the area that are meaningless.

Here's my point: If I gave a fighter 1 a Ring of Lots of Wishes Not Constrained By Casting Time, EXP Cost, or the Listed Rules for the Wish Spell and he killed a party of level 10 adventurers, would that prove that an intelligent fighter could win, or that he won because he was given a lot of money? The money, obviously.

That may seem out there. But think about it: The Kobold's are getting played as having free access to traps (which by the DMG prices are absurdly priced), no time required to build the traps, infinite access to poisons which cost more than they should have by their level, infinite amounts of alchemical supplies, the ability to always know where the party is (even when they rope trick after killing all the kobold guards in an area so there was no line of sight to them), absurdly complicated warrens, and infinite reinforcements despite the fact they only have one single entrance to their main warren which is not only hidden too well to ever be spotted by the adventurers but also can somehow transport infinite kobolds despite the fact it's only the width and height for one.

You aren't fighting Kobolds; you're fighting a DM Fiat cave filled with kobolds who supposedly "built" these traps. At the very least, you are fighting a bunch of level 1 kobolds with level 5 or higher wealth, which doesn't prove kobolds are being played "intelligently" so much as they are being played as "filthy rich."

[jindra34]

I'm amazed at how many people are assuming wealth can only be aquired through adventuring. Each kobold can generate about 5sp worth of trap materials a day. Times a warren of 1000 and you get some significant construction per day. Over the course of a year that adds up realy quickly. My problem with tucker's advocates is they assume significant access to magic and exotic supplies required for more advanced traps, murder holes, pits and the like are resonable. Tons of alchemists fire and similar items is not.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm amazed at how many people are assuming wealth can only be aquired through adventuring. Each kobold can generate about 5sp worth of trap materials a day. Times a warren of 1000 and you get some significant construction per day. Over the course of a year that adds up realy quickly. My problem with tucker's advocates is they assume significant access to magic and exotic supplies required for more advanced traps, murder holes, pits and the like are resonable. Tons of alchemists fire and similar items is not.

5 silver pieces? What craft or profession skill rank are you granting them?

[Tiki Snakes]

Two quick points; Yes they do have near-infinate preperation time, they have entire generations of doing this. It's the whole point of Kobold Society.

ALSO; Traps VS Art - There is no conflict for Kobolds. They view Traps AS an art-form, so get to protect their lair AND indulge in aesthetic creativity at the same time.

[shadow_archmagi]

I think it isn't too much to assume that the kobolds are harvesting some poisonous creature (cave toads?).


Looking at traps... Ah. I see now.

By the SRD, a "Rolling Rock" trap costs 1,400 gp. I see. So, that is to say, hundreds of kobolds working for weeks can afford a single large rock.

Pit traps cost 1800? What? A HOLE IN THE GROUND COSTS MORE THAN FIVE THOUSAND GALLONS OF ALE?


Ok, Ok, admittedly, you need like little gears and levers and pressure plates, but still, that doesn't seem like the actual material cost would be that high. I think a bit of handwaving under these circumstances is justified.

[jindra34]

5 silver pieces? What craft or profession skill rank are you granting them?

Its well within reason from the SRD kobolds who have 2 ranks i each proffesion mining and craft trapmaking. Which equates to on average 6 gp a week. which is higher than my 5sp a day. And most traps that have been described involve removal of material not addition.

[vrellum]

I'm amazed at how many people are assuming wealth can only be aquired through adventuring. Each kobold can generate about 5sp worth of trap materials a day. Times a warren of 1000 and you get some significant construction per day. Over the course of a year that adds up realy quickly. My problem with tucker's advocates is they assume significant access to magic and exotic supplies required for more advanced traps, murder holes, pits and the like are resonable. Tons of alchemists fire and similar items is not.

What about food, water, clothing, homes, all those other essential items that they have to create? Most people living at that tech were just trying to grow enough food that they didn't starve. Living underground is certainly not going to make it any easier.

[Kylarra]

Its well within reason from the SRD kobolds who have 2 ranks i each proffesion mining and craft trapmaking. Which equates to on average 6 gp a week. which is higher than my 5sp a day. And most traps that have been described involve removal of material not addition.

The odd thing is that it becomes sort of a self contained money making machine. I mean, I realize we don't really care about conservation of matter or similar properties in D&D, but we've effectively got kobolds ... working for themselves ... all generating income .... going towards traps ... that they are building and selling to themselves ... yet somehow still coming out in the green as a whole.

[shadow_archmagi]

What about food, water, clothing, homes, all those other essential items that they have to create? Most people living at that tech were just trying to grow enough food that they didn't starve. Living underground is certainly not going to make it any easier.

It seems to me that the Eygptians were able to both provide for themselves AND spend hundreds of thousands of man-hours designing elaborately trapped tombs.

[Kylarra]

It seems to me that the Eygptians were able to both provide for themselves AND spend hundreds of thousands of man-hours designing elaborately trapped tombs.

Interestingly enough these tombs are foiled by people without magic... also you can place more traps when you don't ever intend to actually leave the place.

[Starbuck_II]

Egyptians were wealthy...no one made tombs except the rich. Poor people were slaves and made into mummies.

[shadow_archmagi]

Interestingly enough these tombs are foiled by people without magic... also you can place more traps when you don't ever intend to actually leave the place.

I was just making a point about civilizations having enough spare time to do major construction projects. Not about the quality of the tomb defenses or anything.

only the rich had tombs!

Yes but the civ as a WHOLE was CAPABLE of building those tombs (In quantity!). Which means that it isn't unreasonable to think that kobolds could also build large complexes with traps.

[Hurlbut]

WHat he's asking is that is it really feasible for kobolds to spend so much of their time and effort and space and resources to mine and trap their lairs like this? Resources spent here are resources not spent on other areas...like music, art, research and develop (magic or otherwise), martial training, recreation, etc.

Is this kobold really a society that can function and flourish, doing all it needs to do to be able to stop adventurers? And if it can, aren't there better ways, since most other races survive without resorting to this (like halfling and gnomes)

Resources that are spent on survival are well worth it. It's the Dogma of the kobolds; to value survival and offsprings above all.

But mines usually only flood after they are closed.
http://www.hrc.nrcce.wvu.edu/mhyd1.htm

So if the kobolds are not lazy, there wouldn't be flooding. If they are lazy, then they are not Tucker's Kobolds.

They only flooded because there were no one else to keep them from flooding. So are you inferring that the kobolds do work to keep their warrens from flooding like Tiki Snakes implied?

[Kylarra]

Yes but the civ as a WHOLE was CAPABLE of building those tombs (In quantity!). Which means that it isn't unreasonable to think that kobolds could also build large complexes with traps.

Sure, but we're talking about a warren, not a country being financed by the royal inventory.

[shadow_archmagi]

Sure, but we're talking about a warren, not a country being financed by the royal inventory.

Hmm, that is a tricky one.

[jindra34]

My point was that the people who were assuming a warren would have to be built by WBL guidelines were wrong. Not to go into the economics of a warren producing traps. I think we can all agree that given time it should not be unfeasible to have an unspecifiable number of traps built by removal of material in a warren.

[Hurlbut]

Sure, but we're talking about a warren, not a country being financed by the royal inventory.

Ah, but what is wealth? It is not defined by having coinage (gps), but the value attached to something. Simple traps can be made quite easily and you don't ever need coins to pay for them, you only need the value equivalent of the material or labour needed to make the traps. The warren can easily get material they need simply because they have the manpower to go out and gather them up or quickly build traps.

[Kylarra]

My point was that the people who were assuming a warren would have to be built by WBL guidelines were wrong. Not to go into the economics of a warren producing traps. I think we can all agree that given time it should not be unfeasible to have an unspecifiable number of traps built by removal of material in a warren.

It's not physically unfeasible no, but then you've moved on from "fighting kobolds" to "the legendary lair of the tiny dragon-creatures from which no one has ever returned".

[Radiun]

And?
The humans did not just move in either. I guess all of their farms are protected by mega-traps too, making it impossible for the kobolds to come and eat their babies.
Nor did the orcs. I guess their lair is completely unassailable too.
Although I thought the orcs conquered their lair from the dwarves that had lived there for hundreds of years. How could they have done that? Are dwarves lazier and less competent miners than kobolds?

Humans: Most of their work goes towards their elevated dietary needs.
Sturdy walls are all the traps they want as their livestock is more likely to trigger a trap than a random predator, especially as pastures (for the stealing of cows) tend to be wide-open spaces, not bottle-neck corridors. But hey, if a human convinces ~10 kobolds to work for free on their house, I'm sure it'll be the most lethal house on the block.

Orc-Dwarven wars include troops. Troops assaulted a keep who's size is convenient for them (hence their desire to take it over), and I'm willing to bet a pretty penny than the death-toll of these invasions amount to more than a few hundreds. It wasn't a flawless victory. A kobold warren can be annihilated, but it might need more than 6 people to do.

And the elves can trap the woods as much as they want, go ahead. Just realize they'll also be killing more animals than kobolds and that's not exactly what they set out to do.

[EleventhHour]

It's not physically unfeasible no, but then you've moved on from "fighting kobolds" to "the legendary lair of the tiny dragon-creatures from which no one has ever returned".

"Men, today we make a stand! This is the kobold cave of horrors that we had to flee those years ago when we lost Gregory, Pelor rest his soul, but now we have gained experince, we have learned from our mistakes, and I believe that we can defeat those little draconian dogs, and teach them the true ingenuity of humanity! ...and Elfdom, and Dwarves... We shall show them why they should have not burned and raided the town of Maribell. Wizard Zorander, do you have the fifteen million gallons of alchemist's fire? Please, shape the earth into a funnel to thier warren enterance. We are having a barbeque."