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2010-02-18, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
How do cleric liches protect themselves?
Alright, so a human cleric becoming a lich usually loses a (un)healthy amount of hitpoints thanks to losing the Con score. The HD becoming d12 doesn't quite make up for it, and furthermore your Fortitude save now sucks bullocks. Wizard liches have the same problem except their Fort sucks even more thanks to being a Wizard.
How does a lich then protect herself from spells like Orb of Fire, Disintegrate, and other nasty damage spells? Unless the Lich can somehow Persist Greater Spell Immunity (not all of my NPC casters abuse DMM), Disintegrate will be a huge problem. Also my PCs love to use rods and Sudden Metamagic feats to maximize there damage spells like the Orb series or Ball Lightning, and the average HP for a level 15 lich is only around 100. Perhaps minion clerics that follow and cast Cure Critical Wounds every round?
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2010-02-18, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
- Location
- South Korea
- Gender
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
I think there's a template that adds your Charisma modifier to your hit points instead of Constitution, I forget what it is though.
“Sometimes, immersed in his books, there would come to him
the awareness of all that he did not know, of all that he had not read;
and the serenity for which he labored was shattered as he realized the
little time he had in life to read so much, to learn what he had to know.”
~Stoner, John Williams~
My Homebrew (Most Recent) | Forum Rules
/veɪnoɚ/
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2010-02-18, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- London
- Gender
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
dips into an initiator class for some diamond mind
Give them bread and circusses and the plebs wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking to ransack your home and kill your wife.
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2010-02-18, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
You mean the counter that let's you sub a Concentration check for a Fort save? But it doesn't fit into the character backstory of the cleric.
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2010-02-18, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
- Location
- Not in a human colon
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
Well, you can take a feat to be able to use the maneuver once/encounter.
Marceline Abadeer by Gnomish Wanderer
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2010-02-18, 09:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
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2010-02-18, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- Redding, Ca
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
Monster Manual
Immunities (Ex): Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.
Undead Traits: An undead creature possesses the following traits.
—Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
—Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
—Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
—Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Now if it's a spell you still have to make a save against...
Have your Lich wear a modified Headband of Conscious Effort. Normally that item only works 1/day, but according to the DMG magical item creation rules for x5 cost it should function at will. So for 10,000gp you make Concentration checks instead of Fort Saves.
Otherwise
Ring of Counterspells disintegrate.
Great Fort feat adds +2
Protection from Spells grants +8 vs spells.
DMG allows you to make items that grant you "other" non resistance bonuses to saves (PG285) an example is the "stone of good luck" which grants a +1 luck bonus to saves. So a +5 luck bonus would cost 50,000gp and stack with resistance bonuses.
15 Lv Lich Cleric could have a 24 Fort save without having a con score.
15 Lv Wizard could have a 20 Fort save (22 w/rat familiar).
And this is with not having any multiclass Base Fort increases.Always attack a man’s strengths, No one ever expects you to attack the strongest part of the fort. Up the middle that’s where the action is. And it’s the same in life. Don’t run away, attack them head on as their coming at you at full speed. Because that my friend is living.
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2010-02-18, 09:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
True but I don't want to make all the other saves sky-high. Also, I don't want to give the Lich *too* much treasure since the PCs will defeat said lich at some point in the campaign.
Hmm...I think I'll just convert to the Pathfinder version of undead for the lich. D8 hitdice, uses Charisma for Fort save and bonus HP. Solves a lot of problems with one stone.
Also, I was thinking of having those cleric servants cast Shield Other on the lich.Last edited by Frosty; 2010-02-18 at 09:58 PM.
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2010-02-18, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Location
- #4 God Street, Dis
- Gender
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2010-02-18, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
Yes, your physical body is potentially weak. In the case of the cleric it is clearly weaker than that for the wizard lich. That may very why wizards are more likely to become lichs (and also clerics might have less uncertainty or worries about their afterlives).
The nice thing about being a lich isn't your durability. It is your ability to regenerate. Yes, a disintegrate will be unpleasant. But I come back later unless you can find and destroy my phylactery. And I'm immortal. Seems like a good enough change.
There are a number of ways of making this better anyways. There's a feat in I think Libris Mortis which allows an undead to add their charisma bonus to their fort saves for example.My homebrew:
Spoiler
Completed:
ToB disciplines:
The Narrow Bridge
The Broken Blade
Prestige classess:
Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish
Worthwhile links:
Age of Warriors
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2010-02-18, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
Still, I don't wanna make the *encounter* too easy. Remember, defeat = exp.
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2010-02-18, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
Why would you worry about that? Undead aren't affected by anything that requires a fortitude save. And even then, I think they're allowed to use their charisma modifier as a bonus to fortitude saves.
To protect his HP, the lich can cast darkness or invisibility or something.
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2010-02-18, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
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2010-02-18, 10:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
Only in the metagame.
No. Undead are not affected by things which require a fortitude save unless it can effect an object. The exact wording in the SRD is that undead have "Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
While some undead get to add their charisma to all fortitude saves, lichs are not one of them. See the lich page.My homebrew:
Spoiler
Completed:
ToB disciplines:
The Narrow Bridge
The Broken Blade
Prestige classess:
Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish
Worthwhile links:
Age of Warriors
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2010-02-18, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
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2010-02-18, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Gender
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
Steam ID
Chained Cambion Avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2010-02-18, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Boston, MA
My homebrew:
Spoiler
Completed:
ToB disciplines:
The Narrow Bridge
The Broken Blade
Prestige classess:
Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish
Worthwhile links:
Age of Warriors
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2010-02-18, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
You can also boost his HPs a small amount with False Life.
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2010-02-18, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
Find a way to cast greater teleport. Bury your phylactery on the moon, or a moon somewhere in the remotest parts of your galaxy. If needed, planet hope a few times so you can explore new planetary systems.
Don't bring your phylactery when exploring. If you end up in a black hole, accidentally mistake a star for a planet, or find a planet with some sort of inhospitable climate (say oceans and atmospheres of sulfuric acid), try again when you reform on your own planet.
Eventually, once you've charted a clever hiding place on some random dirt clod out in the furthest reaches of space; stash your phylactery there, and go back to business as usual. When you eventually gain the ability to cast genesis, make your own plane, throw your phylactery in it, and forget about it. Not even gods can enter your own plane without your permission, so you're pretty much immortal.
You are my God.
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2010-02-18, 11:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Gender
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
Liches are already immune to 2 energy types. Resist energy and protection from energy cover 2 more, leaving only one hole. That and your DR 15/bludgeoning and magic (who carries that as a main weapon?) means HP damage is not much of a problem for liches. Really disintegrate is the only problem, and for that you buy a 24,500 gp rod of greater extend for your greater spell immunity. As a cleric you can also heal more HP than you have with a harm.
As for boosting fort saves, I'd instead see about stopping the few spells that can still affect you if possible. If there's too many then ok, fine, boost the save.Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-02-18 at 11:46 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
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2010-02-19, 01:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
- Location
- Seattle, WA, USA
- Gender
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
As a divine lich, why not just leave your phylactery with your deity? I'm guessing the lich will be beefy enough to be on great terms with whichever is it's Big Guy.
I'd assume that the lich has made most of it's own stuff. Build in a divine version of Instant Summons that can circumvent the "not in somebody else's possession" problem and drop the summoning gem with your phylactery, or deliberately curse the item while making it to bestow two negative levels (which you're immune to) whenever it's equipped or used. Or both.
Heck if you don't want to up the spell level of Instant Summons to steal the item back, two negative levels would get just about anything chucked into the bag of "we'll try to sell it later thanks" which in my mind means it hasn't been claimed. It's free game for an angry immortal with the ear of a God to recover at will.
Try Blacklight.Last edited by Occasional Sage; 2010-02-19 at 01:46 AM.
Avatar by the incomparable araveugnitsuga!
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2010-02-19, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Location
- Behind You
- Gender
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2010-02-19, 02:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
How practical would miss-chance equipment be? Most of the stuff you're concerned with requires attack rolls. Try optimizing your lich's AC as a monk(Wear belt + enchant a common robe with a +5 deflection bonus) If you can't get a touch-AC of at least 30, you're just not trying.
Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2010-02-19, 03:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
If you wanted complete immunity to disintegrate, you could have this lich carry a "Spellblade" dagger. From Player's Guide to Faerun, gives immunity to one single-target spell, chosen at time of creation, so long as the weapon is actually being held.
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2010-02-19, 03:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2008
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2010-02-19, 03:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
I had a really weird idea but...
Maybe a heightened sanctuary spell, and just sit around summoning and using your commanded and animated undead legions to do your dirty work while you're healing them? Humorously, you could end up making it so anyone attacking you would have to make a pretty high will save; especially if your wisdom is buffed for being a lich.
Multiple castings of the spell would force multiple saving throws, as well. Then you could sit back casting stuff like summon undead III to call out huge red dragon skeletons, or summon monster I-IX, or just focus on healing your armies of wights, shadows, skeletons, zombies, and wraiths.
Just some ideas.You are my God.
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2010-02-19, 03:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2009
Re: How do cleric liches protect themselves?
Disintegrate is easy. Greater Spell Immunity (Disintegrate). Of course, this assumes he's high enough level to get Greater Spell Immunity.
Apart from that, they're just as good at defending themselves as the living.
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2010-02-19, 03:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
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2010-02-19, 03:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
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2010-02-19, 03:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Finland