StarCraft 2, Thread 2: Hell, it's about time

[Kumo]

I had a thought.

The SC2 strategys and the SC1 strategies differ - not just game to game, but zerg to zerg, terran to terran.

What if a game was made that put both of those as race choices? Such as Raynor's Raiders for SC2, Dominion for SC1, Overmind for SC1 Kerrigan for...

see where i'm going with this?

Obviously it's not something blizzard would do but a custom map might work fine.

[DranWork]

I dont really understand why it has the long body on legs approach... DT's are meant to be about stealth, having a high profile kinda breaks that idea. I think they would have been better off modeling them like the dragoon but say thinner and more spider like.

[Kumo]

I dont really understand why it has the long body on legs approach... DT's are meant to be about stealth, having a high profile kinda breaks that idea. I think they would have been better off modeling them like the dragoon but say thinner and more spider like.

And a giant floating crystal gunship doesn't?

Jokes aside. I'm pretty sure that in-story the stalkers were developed AFTER the Khalai and Dark Templar came back together again. Even if that weren't the case, i'd say there's a pretty good chance that pretty much everything above the eyes and head is either useless showoffyness used to draw fire, or the blinking mechanism. The former means the stalker lives longer and can get away, or draw fire from other dark templar while the latter is unavoidable crap.

[Cynan Machae]

I had a thought.

The SC2 strategys and the SC1 strategies differ - not just game to game, but zerg to zerg, terran to terran.

What if a game was made that put both of those as race choices? Such as Raynor's Raiders for SC2, Dominion for SC1, Overmind for SC1 Kerrigan for...

see where i'm going with this?

Obviously it's not something blizzard would do but a custom map might work fine.

I'm pretty sure that each SC2 version of each race would be way stronger than their SC1 counterpart, mostly due to the new macro mechanics. But yea, could be fun to try.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm pretty sure that each SC2 version of each race would be way stronger than their SC1 counterpart, mostly due to the new macro mechanics. But yea, could be fun to try.

If you let the SC1 units use the new engine's macro mechanics, as well as the improved pathing, that would likely be made of win and awesome.

SC2 Terran would likely still kick SC1's arse, although the Vulture Mine Fields would still make invading SC1 Terran an expensive process if one is not properly prepared. SC2 Marauders will slaughter SC1 Firebats, due to range advantage. Air, however, is a lot dicier for SC2. The Wraith will completely slaughter Banshees, since it can also cloak, and will also dominate against Ravens and probably even against Vikings. The Eraser will still be viable against M&M balls

SC1 Zerg would have better base defenses, but SC2 Zerg has the Roach, which can effectively handle a 'ling swarm. Now then, the Infestor really won't do all that much vs SC1 Zerg, while the Defiler will still be exceedingly nasty, and the Lurker will be very nasty since SC2 Overlords are not automatically detectors.

Toss, on the other hand, will go to the SC2, hands down. Only the Corsair was better than the Phoenix, if you want to go to unit comparison, at least in regards to their use ability. However, VR's are way nastier than Scouts, Collossi are way better than Reavers, and both Stalkers and Immortals are very nice units which will effectively counter 'goons very nicely.

[Kumo]

meh, i just figured it would be interesting since the play style of the two games is similar in some ways but very very different in others.

[Forbiddenwar]

I'd really hate to see void rays in a SC:BW game. With very weak antiair, they would dominate much more than they do now.they only thing that'll have a chance is the wraith, and only if there are no observers around.

Seriously Air in SC2 is a lot stronger than SC1, which is why the antiair in SC1 was relatively weak compared to anti air in SC2.

The replay video and this conversation brings to mind a question I've been trying to get Day9 to answer:

Is Brood War dead? Is competitive Starcraft 1 matches a thing of the past come Tuesday? Is it the end of an era, as blizzard puts those dedicated servers to a different use?
Now, I know, SC:BW will continue to be played, for the story if noting less, possibly for the Lan as well. But SC2 is SO different. I don't think there will be very many people who can play equally well at both at the same time.

Do you think that the GITP brood war group will shut down and convert? There was a time when everyone was swearing off D&D 4.0 and now, in a metropolis like Denver, it is impossible to find a 3.5 game. Given 2 years or so, do you think the same will happen to Starcraft 1? At least in the pro scene?

[Rigel Cyrosea]

Korea hasn't given up on BW yet, and I doubt they will for some years to come. As I've said before, right now, BW is still the better game, especially when it comes to spectating.

Still, once all three SC2 sections have been released and standard, balanced builds settle in, things may be very different.

As for the GitP SC group... assuming SC2 takes over it's time slot, I'm afraid it probably won't last much longer. I intend to continue to go as long as I can, though.

[Inhuman Bot]

Kinda make me sound like a crappy dude, the way you phrased that.

Agreed.

[arguskos]

Korea hasn't given up on BW yet, and I doubt they will for some years to come. As I've said before, right now, BW is still the better game, especially when it comes to spectating.

Now, I won't debate which game is better (though I prefer SC2 so far to SC:BW, and I love BW), but I will argue that SC2 is going to be better for spectating. The player base isn't as masterful yet, but it will be, and the in-built tools are going to make watching it significantly more interesting and rewarding. Already, people like Day9, Husky, HDStarcraft, these guys are making SC2 a very watchable game, and they're just the tip of the iceberg I bet, just the bleeding edge of the sport. Give it 6 months, and I think we'll see SC2 become a much more watchable game than BW ever has been, at least from a tech perspective.

[Cynan Machae]

Foreigner SC is pretty much gonna die competitevely, but yea like Rigel said Korean BW is still alive.

And I'm gonna continue playing BW from time to time as long as I have people to play it with ><

And goliaths would own Void Rays just fine. That's one of the thing I dislike about T in Sc2, how Thors are crappy antiair against anything but mutalisks.

And I still play 3.5 when I do <<

[Cynan Machae]

Now, I won't debate which game is better (though I prefer SC2 so far to SC:BW, and I love BW), but I will argue that SC2 is going to be better for spectating. The player base isn't as masterful yet, but it will be, and the in-built tools are going to make watching it significantly more interesting and rewarding. Already, people like Day9, Husky, HDStarcraft, these guys are making SC2 a very watchable game, and they're just the tip of the iceberg I bet, just the bleeding edge of the sport. Give it 6 months, and I think we'll see SC2 become a much more watchable game than BW ever has been, at least from a tech perspective.

I think he was speaking from a spectator standpoint, as in how stuff can be impressive and the potential the games have to create good games too see, not the technical/commentating/etc aspect.

Edit: Gah quoted instead of edit ><

[arguskos]

I think he was speaking from a spectator standpoint, as in how stuff can be impressive and the potential the games have to create good games too see, not the technical/commentating/etc aspect.

Eh, so far, I've been far more enthused to see SC2 games than BW games. BW is a fine game, and I enjoy a match or two every now and then (still play with my pals now and then for kicks), but just as a show, SC2 is much more watchable IMO. *shrugs*

[LurkerInPlayground]

I dont really understand why it has the long body on legs approach... DT's are meant to be about stealth, having a high profile kinda breaks that idea. I think they would have been better off modeling them like the dragoon but say thinner and more spider like.

Because they aren't really all that much about stealth. The events of Brood War have convinced Dark Templar that their typical modus operendi regarding guerilla warfare will not always work. They need war machines.

They're only stealthy in the sense that they're great at hit-and-run tactics.

[LurkerInPlayground]

As for the whole BW vs SC2 thing, I think a switchover in Korea is inevitable; considering the long-term business plan that Blizzard has put together. This is particularly true if Blizzard can get the game to support international competition.

And I consider SC2 to be a much more accessible and enjoyable game.

The improved AI, pathing and control group sizes just makes Brood War feel awkward. Nor has removing the awkwardness made the game less "skillful" since there's still a huge incentive to avoid what Day9 calls the "one control group syndrome." And good micro will still get you better concaves and allow you to exploit terrain more easily.

From a micro perspective, you waste less time with stupid BS, something that I think more competitive players will come to appreciate.

There are also more toys to play with in the maps of SC2, which is partly why the game is more interesting to watch. Gold minerals, watchtowers, high ground mechanics and destructible rocks adds more variety.

And units are more delicate, putting more emphasis on unit composition and making for more dynamic games that revolve around transitioning between different tech.

[Inhuman Bot]

Foreigner SC is pretty much gonna die competitevely, but yea like Rigel said Korean BW is still alive.

And I'm gonna continue playing BW from time to time as long as I have people to play it with ><

And goliaths would own Void Rays just fine. That's one of the thing I dislike about T in Sc2, how Thors are crappy antiair against anything but mutalisks.

And I still play 3.5 when I do <<

Agreed about Thors. T_T

I'll still play BW, as it IS the game I play growing up.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Umm. What?

Thors are crazy good anti-air. Just one is enough to pose a major threat to a group of mid-tier air units.

The only thing that keeps them from totally dominating air is that they're immobile, expensive and easy to overwhelm with massed ground units.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, for the SC2 campaign mode, I think there's a few things we can take as required

* Leave no stone unturned, leave no two stones upon another - with 'secret tech' upgrades available to be discovered, it's going to be vital to explore every square inch of every map to find those upgrades. Rather like the mantra from D2: If it can break, then break it. If it can be targeted, play with it until you figure out how to use it, or break it. If there's a part of the map you can't reach, find out how to reach it.

* What you say and do can and will be used against you - They've pretty much said that your choices will significantly impact the ending you get and the flow of the campaign itself. Kinda like Chrono Trigger, one of the things that will add to replay value will be to find all the various combinations to find all the various endings.

* Campaign Mode is not Competitive PvP - slaughtering your opponents may not be your goal in every campaign. Indeed, it may be a big mistake to slaughter your opponents. Before you use your awesome skills to dominate the stupid computer AI, make sure that this is what you actually want to do.

* Think Outside The Box - If something isn't working, figure out another way to achieve your goals, or revisit your goals to encompass something you are missing.

[Rigel Cyrosea]

I find BW a better game to watch because it has more 'WOW' moments than SC2.

When a reaver gets dropped at a min line in BW, you're on the edge of your seat. Will the other player pull workers in time? Will the scarab be a dud? Will they fail to notice and lose their entire worker line?

BW is full of moments like that, where the balance of the game hangs on a razor's edge, and one tiny mistake or one amazing move could determine the entire course of the game. Reaver drops, storming (storm being far, far more deadly in SC1), marines vs lurkers (especially when hold lurkers are involved), mines vs goons...

It's not that SC2 doesn't have exciting moments, or isn't interesting to watch. Don't get me wrong, I love SC2, both playing and spectating. It's just that there's more spark to BW. Smart casting, smart targeting and better overall AI are wonderful things for a player, but they also mean that extremely powerful spells and AoE units have to be toned down a lot for balance. Without those crazy moments, SC2 doesn't really keep you on the edge of your seat in the same way.

[Inhuman Bot]

Umm. What?

Thors are crazy good anti-air. Just one is enough to pose a major threat to a group of mid-tier air units.

The only thing that keeps them from totally dominating air is that they're immobile, expensive and easy to overwhelm with massed ground units.

Well, I agree. Except they do hillariously bad damage to non-light air units, it's really easy to just move units so they aren't stacked, and the fact that they're so immobile means that air units can dance around them quite easily.

[Forbiddenwar]

I find BW a better game to watch because it has more 'WOW' moments than SC2.
*snip*.

Agreed, however, i think it's because the game is so new. People are still working on the mechanics, which is why someone like Day9 can make 1 mistake that costs him a tournament. Once the game is tweaked and balanced more, and people get a few years of experience playing it, SC2 will wow
We've seen Nukes, banelings and collossi drops in mineral lines, just not often enough.

Well, I agree. Except they do hillariously bad damage to non-light air units, it's really easy to just move units so they aren't stacked, and the fact that they're so immobile means that air units can dance around them quite easily.

add in that Void Rays can move and shoot, unlike thors, are faster, are made faster, and do bonus damage to armored units, and you got a mismatch

[arguskos]

Agreed about Thors. T_T

Agreed as well. They're great against Phoenixes, Vikings (ish), Banshees (though they've got a crapload of life), and Mutas, but against something like Brood Lords, BCs, Carriers, Void Rays, Thors just get rolled something fierce.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Agreed as well. They're great against Phoenixes, Vikings (ish), Banshees (though they've got a crapload of life), and Mutas, but against something like Brood Lords, BCs, Carriers, Void Rays, Thors just get rolled something fierce.

Umm, you do know that those units that they're not "good against" are end-game units right? They're units that you're not supposed to let your opponent get, much less mass in numbers, because you've been doing your best to run interdiction on his economy.

And even then, high-tier air has to be careful around them because Thors are still threatening enough if you lose focus. And they can still screen a ground army, making it harder to pick off while they march into your base. Mostly, it's the immobility and bulkiness of Thors that limit their ability to kill high-tier air.

It's partly why zergling speed is useful. More of them get to attack all at once because it's easier to score a surround. Range serves a similar function to speed. Likewise, having big units makes it harder to gain a favorable concave against an enemy force, because less units are able to fit into a circumference.

So yeah. Shock and surprise. More maneuverable units are the "counter" to a slow anti-air placement. Golaiths really wouldn't be much different if air were stronger in SC1.

[Kumo]

Once, after about ten minutes of hiding out in island bases, i dropped two nydus worms on opposite sides of the enemy base, got one of them destroyed and then with the south one hit him with every ultralisk i had. Which was a lot. And made a second worm because it wasn't coming out fast enough.

My favorite win

[LurkerInPlayground]

Oh yeah. And to the people who think Ultras are underpowered . . .

I've seen them put to devastating effect against terran mech and protoss robo armies.

[Kumo]

Oh yeah. And to the people who think Ultras are underpowered . . .

I've seen them put to devastating effect against terran mech and protoss robo armies.

I think that mostly rises from the fact you still need ultras to have the advantage of numbers against similar tiered units and that they are melee whereas immortals and thors are ranged.

[arguskos]

Uh... cause a Void Ray at 5 minutes is late-game? Voids are definitely not late game. BCs/Broods/Carriers, I'll give you, but since the Thor is also a mid to late game unit itself in many respects, and it's frequently touted as a great air counter, I felt the need to mention that no, it's a middling air counter at best. If you are really gonna claim that Thors are excellent AA, I don't know what to say to you. I never claimed they were BAD (in fact I gave a list of things they're great against), just that they're not great.

Of course, this is entirely academic, since Vikings are like OMGWTFBBQ amazing against air, and are actually easier to get than Thors (don't require Armory, nor Tech Lab, and can be Reactor'd out).

[Kumo]

to be fair that example's not so much a lack of ability of the thor's part as a total monopoly on ability for void rays.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I have never played a starcraft.

I will likely be buying this game tomorrow.

This should be interesting.

[Inhuman Bot]

I have never played a starcraft.

I will likely be buying this game tomorrow.

This should be interesting.

I'd recommend playing SC 1, however.