Are cows overpowered?

[GrayDeath]

Ya all who think it behooves ye to misuse The Herd for your nefarious cheesy purposes, see the reason why noone emsses with the Powerr of Mooo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI

[Psyren]

Ya all who think it behooves ye to misuse The Herd for your nefarious cheesy purposes, see the reason why noone emsses with the Powerr of Mooo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI

Counterpoint: As usual, wizards are the exception

[Celestia]

I mean, I really want to see the lv 2 Cowlord in action, but I think you would need more than 10gp per cow to pull it off.
Cows are, inherently, timid animals, and won't spontaneously attack anyone in most cases. So I guess we are looking at training them for war, or purchasing a trained one. That costs 100gp + 75*HDgp = 475 gp. Training them by yourself is a 25 DC Handle Animal check AND a 30 DC one, plus 14 months of work.
That said, for under 500 gp you could get a WarCow that's relevant up until the middle levels, and that's undoubtedly awesome.

P.S: Sorry for lack of moo-puns, english is not my native language and none came to mind. Have a terrible joke instead:
What do you get from a pampered cow? Spoiled milk!

As a Wisconsinite, I can assure you that cattle are not even remotely "timid." They are way too big to be afraid of anything and, when threatened, will much sooner react with aggression than fear. Farmers have to be careful and watchful around their own herd because many of them have been gored, or worse, by an angry cow. Do not f*** with cattle. They will end you.

[Gnaeus]

Shared furry barbarians riding cows into battle!

DO NOT google shared furry riding cows.

[Segev]

I prefer medium-well.

I'm just a fan of such a rare preparation of humorous bull.



More seriously, the training of 10 gp "cows" (using bison stats) as suitable war-beasts is up there with the commoner goatherd idea I had a while back, and could potentially be ground up to high level.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As a Wisconsinite, I can assure you that cattle are not even remotely "timid." They are way too big to be afraid of anything and, when threatened, will much sooner react with aggression than fear. Farmers have to be careful and watchful around their own herd because many of them have been gored, or worse, by an angry cow. Do not f*** with cattle. They will end you.

In other words, don't have a cow, because the cows are not in the mooed.

[Troacctid]

The only thing keeping the mooing horde under control is that they don't often realize what a thousand pounds of ruminant can do to a person. You are proposing removing the only safety the humanoid races have from beefy doom. This idea clearly leads to a post-apocalyptic setting where trained war-bulls led a bovine revolt and trampled civilization under their hooves.

"Herd of cows? Of course I've hearrrghh!"
—Last words of Shecky the Barbarian upon entering the Secret Cow Level

Well, before you milk this for all it's worth, the exact sentence is "the bison's statistics can be used for almost any large herd animal." Given that bison are typically larger than cattle, that "almost" clause might get invoked by your GM and have their stats reduced somewhat if you're truly trying to buy cows.

If it's moo-seful, divine minions of Hathor can wild shape into cows, and it says to use the bison statblock for them.

[Calthropstu]

You could Awaken a cow, too. That could be the tipping point of real bovine power. Just think of it. Warblade cows - with White Raven charge maneuvers. Totemist cows, with wacky blue soulmelds. Druid cows who shoot other cows at you, and use Plant Growth to raise the most delicious grass ever. Psionic cows who mind control you into being their servants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI
Relevant.

Also relevant:

[Kalkra]

Where are the prices for animals? Also, wouldn't awakened animals be kinda miffed by being bought and sold like, well, cattle?

[DungeonUsurper]

Well, from what I've herd, this all makes a lot of sense. If one is taking stock of cows, even if only leisurely grazing over the rules, they must come to this simple realization. . . HAVE COWS; GET CHEESE. I won't steer you wrong, cows are great. Even more so if you are milking templates for all they are worth. Cows are the Bos.

[Calthropstu]

Where are the prices for animals? Also, wouldn't awakened animals be kinda miffed by being bought and sold like, well, cattle?

Possibly. It could also be that they like being bought and sold. They may even have competitions between them over who can fetch the highest price. They may demand a percentage though.

[Segev]

Possibly. It could also be that they like being bought and sold. They may even have competitions between them over who can fetch the highest price. They may demand a percentage though.

I'm amused by the notion of a cattle-rustling gang which is led by Awakened cows with their human lackeys. The boss cows do compete to see who can fetch the highest prices, but the real scam is when they use the herd mentality of their unawakened brethren in the new place to lead the herd away, to where their lackeys await to finalize the theft.

[Unavenger]

This reminds me of the battle of Lufse in War of Omens:

"Castellan Verat: Cattle? All we have is Cattle?

C: How are we going to fight an army with Cattle?!

...

Listrata: Just let us pass, and we'll spare you and your... herd.

C: The only way you're getting through is bloodied and under hoof.

...

C: Mooooooo!

L: You're a madman.

C: Mad like a cow, wench!

...

L: Adding cows to your ranks? How appropriate, you fight like one.

...

C: You seem frustrated.

C: How about a warm glass of milk?

L: Would that I could boil you in it.

...

L: You coward! You rustic! You're as like to trample your own men as mine!

C: Doesn't that make us brave?

L: We'd thought we'd meet warriors, not shepherds."

But yes, it does seem pretty OP. Good find.

[unseenmage]

So, at what WBL can we afford our own cloven hooved BoVD Hivemind here?

That and what . brand . of animal cruelty flavored evil will be used to get said hivemind up and stampeding?


To whoever's mentioned ranching undead moo machines there's a thread in my sig that lists all the templates that can go on an animal without changing its type; including Half-Machine (Dungeon #91 pg106)!!

[Bartmanhomer]

You may call me The Mad Cow.

[denthor]

I mean, assuming they use the stats of bison, as suggested? That's a CR 2 monster right there, purchasable for only 10 gp. Like, you normally gotta be a 4th level druid to get one of these as an animal companion. And then there's magebred cows, which are only 10 gp more than a normal cow, but have an extra +2 to hit, +4 damage, and +5 AC, and they can be trained for combat riding in only a week and still have two tricks to spare afterwards.

Like. For the price of one riding dog...you can buy fifteen cows. I'm just saying.

Please phrase all responses in the form of cow puns.

Wow! You you just made my dream of a majestic paladin on his battle cow a real thing.

[Calthropstu]

Wow! You you just made my dream of a majestic paladin on his battle cow a real thing.

Question: What is an awakened cow paladin's mount?

[Kalkra]

Question: What is an awakened cow paladin's mount?

When I first read that, I read it as awkward. So... I don't know about an awakened cow, but if an awkward cow were to become a paladin, its mount would be a cow.

...It's awkward.

[Telonius]

Question: What is an awakened cow paladin's mount?

Mongo.

[ben-zayb]

I don't see how you can let this abuse get past in any DM's table. Do you yak about how awesome this find is and how it can improve the campaign setting, do you buffalo the poor DM into letting you use it, do you cry foul against the yoke of oppressive railroading, or do you hide it in your character sheet until the game starts?

Question: What is an awakened cow paladin's mount?

Any mount that you can get from World of Warcraft. Pwrsonally, I prefer my cow riding some yak mounts, my werewolf riding some wolf mounts, and my panda riding some bear mounts.

[Bartmanhomer]

Milktank said hi!

Anyway all jokes aside. I don't think cows are overpowered at all.

[Crake]

Bull! You don't need to train them for war, only for combat. Cows can learn up to six tricks, and it takes one week of training per trick. That's six weeks to max them out, with a Handle Animal DC of no more than 20. Magebred cows can do it even faster than that.

Can someone explain to me the difference between "train for war" and "train for combat"?

[Bartmanhomer]

Can someone explain to me the difference between "train for war" and "train for combat"?

I don't think there's no difference. Both of them are the same to me.

[tiercel]

My cowboy hat's off to you, good sir, for this beautiful effort to meat the OP's requests. Seriously, well-done.

*takes bow, spurs jangling* It did occur to me just how many bovine puns there were, and I was wondering how many folks would Where’s-Waldo through that groanfest. When the OP openly actually invited it, I figured I’d just have a field day and graze my way through as many puns as I could rustle together....

More seriously, I learned a bit more about real life oxen than I knew before, including that they typically really are stronger and slower than work horses, but I’m guessing that they really don’t train up the same way for battle or they presumably would have been utilized that way more often.

[Batcathat]

Can someone explain to me the difference between "train for war" and "train for combat"?

The only possible interpretation I can think of is that "train for combat" would focus on the cow fighting as an individual while "train for war" would focus on the cow fighting as part of a unit.

Now, what that would mean mechanically or what it has to do with the original point, I'm even less sure...

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Where are the prices for animals? Also, wouldn't awakened animals be kinda miffed by being bought and sold like, well, cattle?

There're a lot in the equipment section of the PHB. Even more in the Arms & Equipment Guide.

[Vizzerdrix]

The only possible interpretation I can think of is that "train for combat" would focus on the cow fighting as an individual while "train for war" would focus on the cow fighting as part of a unit.

Now, what that would mean mechanically or what it has to do with the original point, I'm even less sure...

I think trained for war is a template.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I think trained for war is a template.

Yep, Warbeast is a template from MMII that can be added to domesticated animals of at least Medium size (so no chickens, to my everlasting disappointment) with 2 months training and a DC 20 Animal Handling check. Or to wild animals that have been tamed with a DC of 20+HD of animal.

[Crake]

Yep, Warbeast is a template from MMII that can be added to domesticated animals of at least Medium size (so no chickens, to my everlasting disappointment) with 2 months training and a DC 20 Animal Handling check. Or to wild animals that have been tamed with a DC of 20+HD of animal.

That's incorrect, warbeast is added through selective breeding, not training, but warbeasts are more difficult to train, and thus have different rules on their training, which is often misconstrued as the ability to simply "train" an animal to be a warbeast. That would be like saying you can "train" a heavy horse, into a heavy warhorse (as the template specifically says you cannot add warbeast to a warhorse, because it's already an example of a warbeast), but a heavy horse and a heavy warhorse are actually just straight up different breeds of horse. You can train a heavy horse for combat, but you can't turn one into a warbeast.

As an aside, training a riding dog "for war" gives it the trip special ability, but you definitely don't need to give it the warbeast template to gain that, so "training for war" is definitely distinct from giving something the warbeast template.

[Vizzerdrix]

Yep, Warbeast is a template from MMII that can be added to domesticated animals of at least Medium size (so no chickens, to my everlasting disappointment) with 2 months training and a DC 20 Animal Handling check. Or to wild animals that have been tamed with a DC of 20+HD of animal.

Medium only makes me sad. It would have been great for a DFI bard build I am toying with if it worked on weasels. Such a shame.