Amkii the Ineffable (3.5 Deity; If I stat it, you CAN'T kill it!)

[Jormengand]

AMKII originally stood for Achaekek MK 2, referring to the nearly-unkillable Mantis God from Pathfinder. The original Achaekek was only supposed to die to the attacks of deities, but there were ways of killing him - not least standing in an Anti-magic field and hitting him with a stick. Even Pathfinder's take on the tarrasque could be bypassed by hard cheese which caused it to lose even its own Ex ability. Worse, people could steal one or other of the abilities, and become immune to practically everything.

Sure, the Lady of Pain is all very well, but what if you want players actually to be able to fight, or at least avoid, the thing in question? Well, let's see what happens if we...

---

Amkii The Ineffable

Huge Outsider (Deity)
Hit Dice: 20d8+200 (290 hp)
Initiative: +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 100 ft, fly 400 ft (perfect)
AC: 66 (+4 Dex, -2 size, +31 natural, +13 +5 full plate +10 deflection)
Attacks: Greatsword +5 +34/+29/+24/+19 melee
Damage: Greatsword +5 4d6+21
Face/Reach: 10 ft by 10 ft/15 ft
Special Attacks: Spells, Spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Divine qualities, superior low-light vision, true immortality, darkvision 120 feet
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +18, Will +25
Abilities: Str 32, Dex 18, Con 30, Int 30, Wis 37, Cha 20
Skills: Concentration +33, Diplomacy +28, Heal +36, Intimidate +28, Knowledge (Arcana, Architecture and Engineering, History, Nature, Psionics, Religion and The Planes) +33, Listen +36, Move Silently +27, Search +33, Sense Motive +36, Spellcraft +33, Spot +36, Psicraft +33
Feats: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
Challenge Rating: 35
Alignment: Lawful neutral

Combat

Darkvision
Amkii's darkvision extends out to 120 feet.

Divine Qualities
Amkii has a divine rank of 0, with all that entails.

Superior Low-Light Vision
Amkii can see five times as far as a human in poor lighting.

True Immortality
Amkii has Regeneration 100, and cannot be harmed by any form of attack (though he still takes non-lethal damage as normal). It cannot, in any way, die. If Amkii would take lethal damage, it always takes non-lethal damage instead, even if the specific effect states that this is not so. Even if Amkii somehow did take lethal damage, it would treat it instead as non-lethal damage.

Amkii ignores nonlethal damage in excess of 10,000 points. Dealing further damage to it does nothing. Further, if Amkii is unconscious for over 20 minutes, it immediately wakes up with full hit points. In this case, Amkii is immune to all damage whatsoever for 1 round.

If an effect would kill Amkii, it doesn't. It instead sets Amkii's nonlethal damage total either to its current total, or to a value equal to his total hit points +10, whichever is higher.

If an effect would trap Amkii's soul, not only does the effect not work because it is an outsider, but the vessel which would hold its soul shatters.

If an effect would remove Amkii's True Immortality or Regeneration, it doesn't. Instead, Amkii doesn't remove 100 points of nonlethal damage during the next turn.

If an effect would cause another creature to gain True Immortality (including by creating a creature with True Immortality), it doesn't. Instead, any creature who dares attempt to replicate Amkii's awesome might (The creature who used the ability, not necessarily the one who might have been given True Immortality) is subject to the effects of an Imprisonment spell (DC 32). Even if a creature did gain True Immortality in this way, it would immediately lose it again.

If an effect would allow another creature to, in any respect, control Amkii's actions (which is to say, force Amkii to take actions against its will), it doesn't. Instead, Amkii gains control of the creature who used this ability (again, not necessarily the one who might have controlled it) for the duration, and to the extent, given in the original ability's description.

If an effect would teleport Amkii, or cause him in any way to move, he can choose whether or not he is affected by this. If an affect somehow stops Amkii from performing actions, or a specific type of action (such as a Temporal Stasis spell), this only remains the case for a maximum of 20 minutes. He is then immune to the effect for a further 20 minutes.

If an effect would cause Amkii to lose divine immunities or its divine ranks, it doesn't. Instead, it causes Amkii to lose the spell resistance and deflection bonus to AC, and nothing else.

If Amkii is called upon to make a roll regarding True Immortality, he passes it without having to roll. Similarly, other creatures always fail such a roll.

If one could kill Amkii, doing so would still be completely pointless as it would be resurrected again immediately and at full capacity, even if it it had been completely erased from time, space and existence itself, such as through an Unname spell. In any case, Amkii can, once per day and by concentrating for 1 minute, reform itself, undamaged, anywhere on any plane.

Spells

Amkii casts spells in exactly the same manner as a Solar Angel, except using the Protection and Law domains instead of choosing from those listed. It typically reserves its domain spells, as well as the extra spell slots for having higher Wisdom than the Solar, for spells useful against its specific target each day.

Spell-Like Abilities

At will: Discern Location, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Gate (Planar travel only), Greater Dispel Magic, 3/day: Greater Teleport, Heal, Mage's Disjunction 1/Day: Imprisonment (DC 32), Plane Shift

The following abilities are always active on Amkii’s person, as the spells (caster level 20th)
Detect chaos, detect snares and pits, discern lies (DC 27), see invisibility, true seeing. They can be dispelled, but Amkii can reactivate them as a free action.

In both cases, the save DCs are wisdom-based.

---

Okay, I'm pretty sure you can't kill it, though there might be a way to keep it down forever (except for 1 round every 20 minutes - not long enough to do anything -) with non-location-based DoT in excess of 100 damage/round. One thing I'm not really sure about is the CR. Clearly, it's trivial for a level 35 party to defeat, if not actually kill, but I don't feel comfortable giving an immortal 20th level cleric much lower, especially when it can just get back up a little later and walk through a gate or two to get back to you. Even the CR 57 Hecatoncheires would have a hard time keeping it down - pretty much having to full attack it every few rounds just to keep it in negatives.

If you actually want to get on with your life, having this thing going after you is going to make it seriously tough, but actually defeating it in the first instance isn't too hard. I guess the DM could just decide "Amkii gets bored and stops trying to kill you," but it could take down most spellcasters just by wasting their spell slots. I dunno.

[Epsilon Rose]

I fail to see how your true immortality effect is any different from just leaving it unstated. You basically just wrote "Does not follow the rules, all effects run on DM fiat, player action is irrelevant."

[ben-zayb]

I'm not sure I follow the logic. If a game uses homebrew, then killing this thing will be just as easy.

EDIT: You give immunity piercing and piercing-piercing (i.e. the stuff that blocks Searing Spell and the like), and only so few and so specified at that. What's stopping any other homebrew piercing effects from targeting everything else about the deity that isn't specifically described to be piercing-piercing.

[Jormengand]

I fail to see how your true immortality effect is any different from just leaving it unstated. You basically just wrote "Does not follow the rules, all effects run on DM fiat, player action is irrelevant."

No, I wrote "Does not die. No, not even THEN." Sure, you can knock it out for however long, but it will get back up and it will do a set amount of damage, either with its greatsword or 20th-level cleric casting. It will not go all Lady of Pain on you and kill you before you can even say contingent raise dead. You can fight and defeat it.

It's like PF's tarrasque, or what PF's tarrasque was supposed to be anyway. You can't kill it, ever. You can fight it, knock it out and shove it somewhere where it can't hurt you for a while, but you can't actually kill the damn thing. Same with the original Achaekek, assuming the players are not in fact gods.

I'm not sure I follow the logic. If a game uses homebrew, then killing this thing will be just as easy.

EDIT: You give immunity piercing and piercing-piercing (i.e. the stuff that blocks Searing Spell and the like), and only so few and so specified at that. What's stopping any other homebrew piercing effects from targeting everything else about the deity that isn't specifically described to be piercing-piercing.

I'm assuming the DM won't allow homebrew effects which say "This can kill Amkii the Ineffable, and when it does it stays down." You'd have to write something painfully specific to kill it (id est, you would have to write that it did lethal damage even to things with regeneration, and that damage was always treated as lethal damage even if an effect said it wasn't, and that when it did kill something that something couldn't be resurrected, ever, which I wouldn't allow anyway) and the DM can always say "No".

[Amechra]

The Teramach can kill it. Or, at least, has a similarly comprehensive method of bypassing immortality.

And they can get that power by 14th level at the earliest.

Also, hey, Greymantle says hi. Greymantle says hi, and LAUGHS!

[Jormengand]

The Teramach can kill it. Or, at least, has a similarly comprehensive method of bypassing immortality.

And they can get that power by 14th level at the earliest.

Also, hey, Greymantle says hi. Greymantle says hi, and LAUGHS!

Could you link to those two things and tell me how they do it?

[Tacitus]

DvR 0 adds Charisma to AC as Deflection, which is missing from your AC line.

[Primal Fury]

Could you link to those two things and tell me how they do it?

I don't know what Greymantle is, but the Teramach has an ability that well... here it is:

Death-is-Death Conclusion: When you reduce a creature to -10 hit points, or below 0 hit points if they do not possess negative hit points, or inflict nonlethal damage in excess of -10 hit points if they have Regeneration or a similar trait, or otherwise destroy a creature's form, they die. This only functions in a Rage. Specific examples follow.

Creature who reconstitute themselves after death, such as Liches, Ghosts, and Gods, do not reconstitute themselves; they just die.

Creatures who cannot be killed, such as the Tarrasque, are killed anyway.

Creatures whose life force return to their home plane after death, to become one with its planar energies, such as most Outsiders, do not achieve cosmic one-ness; they just die.

Creatures who can survive past their normal threshold for death, such as by the effects of a Delay Death spell, do not survive past this threshold; they just die.

When you kill a Summoned creature, its real self dies.

When you kill a creature who is projected from somewhere else, such as by an Astral Projection spell, their real self dies.

When you kill a creature whose death is interrupted by an effect that does not require an action to perform, such as a Vampire's automatic gaseous form, or a contingent spell, that effect does not activate; they just die.

I'm sure you get the gist; killing things kills them. Extrapolate as necessary.

It seems like these sorts of conflicts are simply up to DM fiat, since both seem similarly all-encompassing.

Player: He's dead.

DM: No he's not.

Player: Yeah he is.

DM: No he's not!

Player: Yeah huh!

DM: Nuh uh!

Ad infinitum.

[Amechra]

Greymantle doesn't kill it. It's a 5th level Necromancy spell that renders living creatures incapable of removing negative levels or healing from damage or ability damage. It also suppresses Regeneration and Fast Healing for the duration as part of its function. It would only suppress the Regeneration part of True Immortality, and doesn't remove it entirely, thus bypassing that clause right there. You can find it on Page 107 of the Spell Compendium.

And, well... Death-is-Death Conclusion, a power up of Protagonism-Devouring Legend Singularity. They also get an ability to ignore immunities in their Excellencies.

Note how it says that if they creature can't die, it dies anyway.

There's also a number of homebrew abilities that bypass Regeneration without suppressing it or removing it entirely.

Also the "cannot be controlled" clause is way too vague, especially since at extremes that can be extended to trying to talk to it. Clarify what you mean, please.

To make this more challenging, I suggest any further critiques ignore purposefully vague clauses like the "cannot be controlled" one, mainly because clauses like that aren't cricket, mate.

Not cricket at all.

[Jormengand]

DvR 0 adds Charisma to AC as Deflection, which is missing from your AC line.

Ah, good point. That's why I shouldn't use creature builders. >.>

I don't know what Greymantle is, but the Teramach has an ability that well... here it is:


It seems like these sorts of conflicts are simply up to DM fiat, since both seem similarly all-encompassing.

Player: He's dead.

DM: No he's not.

Player: Yeah he is.

DM: No he's not!

Player: Yeah huh!

DM: Nuh uh!

Ad infinitum.

It's fine: this is what happens:

- Amkii dies at 300 NL damage from Teramach's effect.
- Amkii's ability ("It cannot, in any way, die.") activates.
- Teramach's effect ("Creatures who cannot be killed, such as the Tarrasque, are killed anyway") activates.
- Amkii's ability ("If an effect would kill Amkii, it doesn't.") activates.
- Amkii is set to 300 NL damage.
- Note that even if Amkii had been killed, he would have come back to life anyway. His death is not "Interrupted by an effect that does not require an action to perform"; he dies, sure, and then comes back afterwards.

As for Greymantle, it can shrug that off 1/day (that said, I'd probably better specify what "Undamaged" means). "Control Amkii" has been cleared up a little.

[General Patton]

- Amkii's ability ("If an effect would kill Amkii, it doesn't.") activates.

That looks an awful lot like an immunity, which is much more convenient for the Teramach to overcome than large finitely powerful resistances, thanks to Obstreperous Shell-Cracking Mien.

While in a Rage, whenever one of your rolls would be opposed by a perfect effect (Such as rolling fire damage against a creature immune to fire, or attempting to grapple a character under the effects of Freedom of Movement - an effect with no direct way of circumvention. So, fire resistance would not apply in the former case, since it can be circumvented by dealing more damage.), you may make an opposed roll against it. Roll a d20 and add your class level and Strength modifier. The opposition rolls a d20, and adds a relevant level modifier (such as caster level for a spell or the properties of a magic item, meldshaping level for the effects of a Soulmeld, class level if it is the direct effect of a class feature, etc) and a relevant ability modifier (such as Intelligence for a Wizard's spell, Constitution for a Soulmeld, or Charisma for a Paladin's immunity to fear; use your best judgment). If you succeed, your roll transpires as if the offending perfect effect did not exist, and any ongoing effects of your roll are similarly unhindered (so, a grappled character with Freedom of Movement would not suddenly become ungrappled later, nor would they be immune to being pinned or constricted in the same grapple, although letting go of them, and then attempting to grapple them a second time, would require another opposed roll).

So that should synergize with Death-is-Death Conclusion and punch through the immunity to death-immunity-piercing. And of course this ability has to punch through immunity to itself.

- Note that even if Amkii had been killed, he would have come back to life anyway. His death is not "Interrupted by an effect that does not require an action to perform"; he dies, sure, and then comes back afterwards.

Death-is-Death Conclusion is an extension of Protagonism-Devouring Legend Singularity, which does this.

When you kill or destroy a creature while in a Rage, their individuality and essence is absorbed into your mythos, and bound their by the authority you have proven by killing it. If an affected creature has a soul, it proceeds onward to its afterlife as usual, but is dull and almost inanimate; any petitioner or other Outsider created from one is lifeless and insensate, and those planar contraptions that extract soul-energy (such as the Maggot Pits of Avernus) find them to be dry and worthless.

Such creatures may still be returned to life/undeath/etc by appropriate magics, but the thing that appears is a mindless doll without purpose or agency, capable of neither thought nor action.

The one potential solution is this, impossible as it may seem. If you should be killed, all the essence that you have consumed is released back into the multiverse, giving back mind and potency to those souls, bodies, lives, and so on, that you have preyed upon.

So, the Teramach momentarily kills Amkii, performs a soul-lobotomy without actually trapping the entire soul, and then a comatose Amkii is revived.

[Jormengand]

That looks an awful lot like an immunity, which is much more convenient for the Teramach to overcome than large finitely powerful resistances, thanks to Obstreperous Shell-Cracking Mien.

The ability doesn't work. Not just for killing Amkii, I mean it just plain doesn't work against anything that's not a spell or class feature. You're rolling against something modified by a non-existent level modifier and a non-existent ability score modifier - it makes less sense than asking for a ghost's constitution modifier.

Also, it doesn't work because it only triggers when one of your rolls is opposed by a perfect effect, and you're not rolling to kill Amkii.

Death-is-Death Conclusion is an extension of Protagonism-Devouring Legend Singularity, which does this.



So, the Teramach momentarily kills Amkii, performs a soul-lobotomy without actually trapping the entire soul, and then a comatose Amkii is revived.

Ehh, not quite.

"If an effect would trap Amkii's soul, not only does the effect not work because it is an outsider, but the vessel which would hold its soul shatters."

Poor Teramach.

[Nanoblack]

It looks like you may not be reading through the Teramach abilities thoroughly enough. In the case of Obstreperous Shell-Cracking Mien, if you don't have a modifier, you find one. I imagine in this case, your critter would be using its HD + highest ability modifier in a roll-off vs the Teramach level + Teramach Strength modifier. Now if I know my high level Teramachs like I think I do, I would bet on the Teramach every time in this fight.

In regards to Protagonism-Devouring Legend Singularity, it neither unmakes, destroys, nor traps a soul. It dissipates the creatures essence and prevents it from re-attaching to a physical form. To simplify, it slaps Amkii's hand away everytime he makes an attempt to reform. This is all in addition to the fact that you never mention that your creature has any capacity to take action while it's dead, and it requires 1 minute of concentration to revive. As written, it physically cannot use its own revival ability.

[ben-zayb]

I think this bears repeating

Player: He's dead.

DM: No he's not.

Player: Yeah he is.

DM: No he's not!

Player: Yeah huh!

DM: Nuh uh!

Ad infinitum.

One of these days, I'm really gonna make a class named "Special Snowflake".

SS: I use X effect on you!
AtI: Nuh uh. Immune to X due to Y!
SS: Yeah huh! My X is specially different! X doesn't count as that effect and bypasses that!
AtI: Nuh uh! My Y is specially different! Y doesn't count as that effect and bypasses that!
SS: Yeah huh! My X is specially different! Outright Immunities don't work!
AtI: Nuh uh! My Y is specially different! Outright Piercing effects don't work!
SS: Yeah huh! My X is specially different! It bypasses ALL Immunities, you see, including that!
AtI: Nuh uh! My Y is specially different! Iy bypasses ALL Piercing effects, you see, including that!
SS: Yeah huh!
AtI: Nuh uh!

Ad Infinitum

With homebrew, it's not about finding a specific effect that will render you moot. It's about the time it takes to search the internetz for that combination of preexisting abilities that will render you moot. If TO characters can do it, then it's likely only a matter of time and effort for homebrew to do it too with mechanically more elegant methods.

As it is, this creature has no "Special Snowflake"-type of Immunity (it means it bypasses that thing that bypasses that thing that... you get the point) to:

• Ability Damaged / Ability Drained / Ability Burned / Energy Drained (yeah, DvR is run of the mill immunity in this case)
• Blinded/Deafened, or any other condition relying on disruption of senses (oh, boy, homebrew loves to explore this one too!)
• Confused (the mind**** variety where such effect is never against your will, for some reason)
• Grappling / Pinned / Staggered / Cowering / Dazed / Paralyzed / Stunned / Immobilized / Nauseated, or any other action denial, really
• Panicked / Frightened (never against your will when you want to flee)
• Mind-Affecting effects that "changes the way her mind works" (directly lifted from the Compulsion subschool, no less)
• Attacks that target your HD
• Attacks that target your Speed or your ability to move that isn't forced movement
• Attacks that target your spellcasting/SLA/magical abilities
• Attacks that target your attack and damage options (and ability to even make attacks or deal damage)
• Attacks that target your divine qualities themselves
• Attacks that target your True Immortality itself
• Attacks that target your saves (and ability to even do saves)
• Attacks that target your ability score (not limited to damage/drain/burn)
• Attacks that target your skills, ranks, modifiers (and ability to even do skills)
• Attacks that target your feats (and ability to use those feats)
• Attacks that target your alignment
• Temporal clone shenanigans to precede the AtI and be the one with the True Immortality (that's even possible without homebrew, I think)

And that's barring all creative stuff that the playground comes up with (e.g. your attacks/etc. target yourself instead, your soul ceases/vanishes (not trapped,)

So, yeah. Sad reality is that you got the idea in reverse. If you stat it with actual values, you just gave someone that ticket to kill it! That's why you're more likely to see people asking help on how to kill gods than Lady of Pain

[Jormengand]

You know, rather than actually trying to make Amkii truly immortal, it's more tempting never actually to use it in a game, and just use him as a ban list (if it can kill Amkii, you're not allowed to use it!)

But what the hell, let's do this:

Shell-cracking: Doesn't work; only triggers when a roll you make is opposed by Amkii, Death-is-Death doesn't require a roll. I could add that Amkii automatically passes any test he is called upon to make regarding True Immortality.
Protagonism-Devouring: While True Immortality specifically calls out Unname, I think it's more than reasonable to assume that "Even if it it had been completely erased from time, space and existence itself" means it doesn't stop it resurrecting at full capacity.

Also, if an effect would prevent Amkii from taking an action, (note that it normally creates a lifeless clone of Amkii, incapable of acting) surprisingly enough, it works... for 20 minutes, after which Amkii gets bored of it. ("If an affect somehow stops Amkii from performing actions, or a specific type of action (such as a Temporal Stasis spell), this only remains the case for a maximum of 20 minutes. He is then immune to the effect for a further 20 minutes.")

Special Snowflake: Again, I'm assuming we aren't allowing classes whose sole purpose is killing Amkiii.

Ability damaged/drained: If you did manage this, Amkii could shrug it off 1/day by taking a minute to do so (which, for the record, is the point of that ability). If you knocked it comatose, it'd stay down for 20 minutes, then be immune to the coma for 20 minutes - ample time to reform itself.

Blinded/Deafened: Last 20 minutes, before he gains 20 minutes' immunity from them. Assuming the cause of the blindness/deafness isn't reinstated, it's back to full capacity.

Confused: As Blindness/Deafness, also how is confusion not mind-affecting, which deities are immune to?

Grappling and co: Doesn't stop him in the long term.

Panicked: Deity, also only lasts maximum 20 minutes.

Mind-affecting stuff: Uh, DEITY?

Attacks that make me lose HD, I guess?: Wait, these exist? And DMs allow them? That's fine, because even if you do kill Amkii with them, it comes back in perfect health instantly, and if you don't, it can shrug them off with its one-minute reformation ability.

Attacks that reduce speed: Last 20 minutes; Amkii knows D door and Greater Teleport, has ridiculous fly speed, can shrug them off with reforming ability.

Attacks targeting ability to do stuff: Last 20 minutes, then it's immune for 20 more.

Attacks targeting divine qualities: This might be a good point, and I'll write it in.

Attacks targeting True Immortality: Fail; either stop Amkii removing 100 NL damage next round or imprison the user depending on nature.

Attacks targeting saves: Don't matter if you can't do anything when its saves are down.

Attacks targeting ability score: Can be shrugged off with reformation.

Attacks targeting other things: Can be shrugged off with reformation; don't actually stop Amkii from hitting you with a stick.

Temporal Clone: Amkii was the first cause and is eternally existing. "Before Amkii existed" does not exist.

The point here is yes, you can stop Amkii for a while. We know that (knock it out, shove it in lava, leave for a while). But you can't actually kill the bastard, or permanently impair it. It will be back.

[ben-zayb]

The point here is yes, you can stop Amkii for a while. We know that (knock it out, shove it in lava, leave for a while). But you can't actually kill the bastard, or permanently impair it. It will be back.

The point here is we'll be moving goalposts for eternity given people would be willing to. Someone suggests a way, Amkii gets edited. As I said before, it's homebrew. It's a matter of time and effort to counter this. You might as well say Schrodinger's monster.

Case-in-point: Auto-repeating, SR-bypassing, immunity-piercing, maddening scream (Yep, mind-affecting). Immunity? Pierces. It. All.
AtI: Nuh uh!
SS: Yuh uh!
Ad Infinitum.

[Primal Fury]

I just want to point out that, without actually meaning to, I totally predicted this conversation. It really DID devolve into "Yuh huh! Nuh uh!", albeit a more articulate form of it.

[ben-zayb]

I just want to point out that, without actually meaning to, I totally predicted this conversation. It really DID devolve into "Yuh huh! Nuh uh!", albeit a more articulate form of it.

And that's two post + 1 repost, to boot. I guess we need to post some version of that again, because the message apparently still isn't sent across. *shrugs*

[Jormengand]

The point here is we'll be moving goalposts for eternity given people would be willing to. Someone suggests a way, Amkii gets edited. As I said before, it's homebrew. It's a matter of time and effort to counter this. You might as well say Schrodinger's monster.

Now, see, I think there's a misconception or two here:

- DM is using unofficial monster implies that players are allowed to use some homebrew.
- Players are allowed to use some homebrew implies that players are allowed to use all homebrew, ever.

As I've said before, things designed just to kill Amkii are all very well, but not actually relevant. I certainly wouldn't allow the Teramach in my game, having read what it does, for example.

[ben-zayb]

Now, see, I think there's a misconception or two here:

- DM is using unofficial monster implies that players are allowed to use some homebrew.
- Players are allowed to use some homebrew implies that players are allowed to use all homebrew, ever.

As I've said before, things designed just to kill Amkii are all very well, but not actually relevant. I certainly wouldn't allow the Teramach in my game, having read what it does, for example.

Hmm... I'm not sure where you're getting that "designed just to kill Amkii". I doubt Xefas have an idea who that deity was when making his Teramach. Mythos classes are powerful, as do many other famous brews, but they aren't explicitly for deity hunting purposes.

If the goal was to prevent those players without these homebrews from killing Amkii, then yeah. They have to pull some TO shenanigans, but other than that, you're in the clear.

[Primal Fury]

If you are so against this creature dying, then why even stat it out? A thing doesn't explicitly NEED stats to be used in a game.

[Jormengand]

If you are so against this creature dying, then why even stat it out? A thing doesn't explicitly NEED stats to be used in a game.

So you can fight it, but not kill it. And it can fight you too. As I said before:

"Sure, you can knock it out for however long, but it will get back up and it will do a set amount of damage, either with its greatsword or 20th-level cleric casting. It will not go all Lady of Pain on you and kill you before you can even say contingent raise dead. You can fight and defeat it."

Hmm... I'm not sure where you're getting that "designed just to kill Amkii". I doubt Xefas have an idea who that deity was when making his Teramach. Mythos classes are powerful, as do many other famous brews, but they aren't explicitly for deity hunting purposes.

If the goal was to prevent those players without these homebrews from killing Amkii, then yeah. They have to pull some TO shenanigans, but other than that, you're in the clear.

The teramach wasn't who I was thinking of so much as your hypothetical "Special Snowflake" when I wrote "Designed to kill Amkii." Still, the teramach is clearly designed with killing the unkillable in mind.

[Primal Fury]

So you can fight it, but not kill it. And it can fight you too. As I said before:

"Sure, you can knock it out for however long, but it will get back up and it will do a set amount of damage, either with its greatsword or 20th-level cleric casting. It will not go all Lady of Pain on you and kill you before you can even say contingent raise dead. You can fight and defeat it."

Okay, cool. But why does it matter whether or not you can kill it permanently?

[Jormengand]

Okay, cool. But why does it matter whether or not you can kill it permanently?

Because, RAW, a high-level party can go around and kill all the gods of pretty much any of the settings, basically screwing over all divine casters and completely ruining everything.

Plus, the idea of something that you can get rid of temporarily but not kill is potentially a useful plot device.

[Primal Fury]

Because, RAW, a high-level party can go around and kill all the gods of pretty much any of the settings, basically screwing over all divine casters and completely ruining everything.

That seems an odd thing to be worried about, considering that can only happen if the DM actually lets it happen.

Plus, the idea of something that you can get rid of temporarily but not kill is potentially a useful plot device.

Fair enough.

[Nanoblack]

At this point why even give this ability to a specific creature? You've basically got "plot armor, the creature". Why not make it a spell or an item? Seems like it would be more flexible of a concept that way.

[Jormengand]

At this point why even give this ability to a specific creature? You've basically got "plot armor, the creature". Why not make it a spell or an item? Seems like it would be more flexible of a concept that way.

Amkii is more of a conceptual thing than something I'm going to throw straight into a game. That's why I pretty much gave it 20 HD, high stats, Solar casting and a big sword as well as the number of feats/skills appropriate for its HD/HD and INT, and then spent the rest of my time making the True Immortality thing.

The trouble with a spell is that if it's an Xth level spell, the PCs will learn it as soon as they hit 2X-1'th level. If you make it a ninth-level spell and the PCs are only 1st level and not going to get much higher, then one might wonder why said person isn't just Astrally Projecting themselves and throwing a fireball at the party rather than making a low-level guy immortal and sending him at the party until kingdom come.

As for an item, it's basically the same as making it a creature only you have to safeguard against it being taken off. I mean, if I want it to be applied to another creature, I can apply it to another creature.

[Nanoblack]

I may have misrepresented my point. It seems at this point, you're more homebrewing the true immortality ability and the rest of the creature is moot. Even then, the ability amounts to "the dm doesn't want this creature to die" and so it wont. Anything less than that and it's inevitable that determined players will find a way to kill it, and that's exactly how you wind up with a series of pointless revisions as portrayed in the "nuh-uh, yes-huh" situations above.

[Jormengand]

I may have misrepresented my point. It seems at this point, you're more homebrewing the true immortality ability and the rest of the creature is moot. Even then, the ability amounts to "the dm doesn't want this creature to die" and so it wont. Anything less than that and it's inevitable that determined players will find a way to kill it, and that's exactly how you wind up with a series of pointless revisions as portrayed in the "nuh-uh, yes-huh" situations above.

If a player has an ability that allows them to kill Amkii, I probably wasn't allowing them access to it in the first place. Again, I can change the rest of the creature - of course the True Immortality is the important bit: like I said Amkii itself is just a thought experiment.

Yes, there is quite likely something, somewhere, that can kill Amkii. However, if it's actually written out in a way better than "Amkii can't die. No, even if you have an ability that says it can. Look here, I'm the DM and I say it can't die," then it's more likely to be taken seriously.

[ben-zayb]

The teramach wasn't who I was thinking of so much as your hypothetical "Special Snowflake" when I wrote "Designed to kill Amkii." Still, the teramach is clearly designed with killing the unkillable in mind.

Again, I'm not sure where you're getting that "designed to just kill Amkii". SS is a parody of horrible self-gratifying homebrews, if you will. It's "Yeah uh", the class; it will pierce anything not because it's meant to specifically target it, because it simply pierces anything. The fun part is that it can do that with any method of attack. Yes, that attack too, and it can't be stopped by that. No, not even then. Not even that.

Yes, there is quite likely something, somewhere, that can kill Amkii. However, if it's actually written out in a way better than "Amkii can't die. No, even if you have an ability that says it can. Look here, I'm the DM and I say it can't die," then it's more likely to be taken seriously.

Eh..But that's what you just did. It's actually better written that way, since despite not actually putting that exact phrase in print, the abilities are pretty much summarized like that anyway (only much more confusing, loopholed, and goalpost-moving). I don't have stats for the ocean, yet I sure can see someone furiously punching or swinging his greataxe through it. He sure felt the waters parting and splashing, but he isn't really doing anything significant to "harm" the ocean.

Maybe it would be far better writing if, in addition to just singling out each possible "Nuh uh"s, there's an actual attempt at making some grand fluff description behind each of those clauses... something the characters can at least digest, appreciate, or bask at in sheer awesomeness. That definitely sounds like better writing to me.

Otherwise, it just looks like Amkii the Ineffable-because-I-anticipated-most-of-your-attack-points-and-will-retroactively-add-other-clauses-on-its-true-immortality-in-case-you-figure-out-a-method-that-will-make-true-immortality-not-so-true-after-all.