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2008-09-23, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
I dunno... classic idealist heros like Spider-Man and Captain America never did get along with more, uh, efficient heros like the Punisher or Wolverine. Or the Superman-Batman relationship if you're a DC fan. Cue tvtrope links to the following: Antihero, Joker Immunity, Why Don't Ya Just Shoot Him, Kill Him Already, and What The Hell Hero.
But consider this: Elan, despite all his willingness to kill Kubota during his pursuit (Gosh, it's a good thing I'm not the one in heavy armor), nonetheless accepted the surrender of an unarmed scumbag.
V, however, snuffed the aforementioned scumbag like a candle flame AFTER he was tied up and not an IMMEDIATE threat (though at least a probable future one). Whether V did so to prevent him being a potential future danger, or whether V is simply sick and tired of being sick and tired, is yet to be made clear.
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2008-09-23, 09:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
The act itself cannot be qalified within one of the nine alignments without considering the motive of the character and the surrounding circumstances.
Kubota was killed purely out of pragmatism and frustration. V determined it to be the shortest means to the best possible outcome. Hate, greed, jealousy, and other evil motivators were not involved. It was a logical decision. Failing to dispatch him and letting the thing go to trial would have tied the party up for months and potentially let the villain off the hook. V tied up all the lose ends with 2 simple spells and finished it all in 12 seconds.
Given the nature of V, his/her motivations, and the surrounding circumstances, this was clearly the action of a True Neutral or a Chaotic Neutral being.
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2008-09-23, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
The only way that could be more awesome, is if Elan's blank look went to a smile and then he hugged V.
For saving him the headache.
For doing what he couldn't do.
For setting the focus back to where it needs to be, on stopping Xykon and saving the world.
Like a saying from a wildly popular show that started it's new season last night.
Kill Kubota. Save the world.
I always like V from when she tortured Belkar for nothing more then his/her own experimentation and amusement, but this is a raw slapdown. As for allignment purposes - if it's evil - who cares? V has never had to justify his/her actions, and up to this point I've seen no indication that V cares which side s/he alligns on.
As for whether or not V had the spell slots - remember that while fighting the demon V's focus was on getting pass the saves, not whether or not V had enough spells. V could have easily had enough to continue attacking the demon, but the focus was on using the spells that could get pass the saving throw.
Awesome. Just when I thought that Miko losing her paladin-ship couldn't be topped, the Giant manages to flex his wits and entertain us all with something this brilliant. Bravo Rich. Bravo!
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2008-09-23, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
H. S. s/he did it! Guess all you who said this would happen were right. I feel bad for Elan though, he didn't get the satisfaction of killing him himself.
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2008-09-23, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
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2008-09-23, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
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2008-09-23, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-23, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
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2008-09-23, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Except now V, my new least favorite charectr, is going to go on trial for murdering an inocent man, as the Law (at least where I am) states that you cannot pass trial on a dead man. I assume the Paladins have a similar law. As such, Kabuto may have been guilty, but he was never convicted or even formaly charged for that matter. V is going to be guilty of murder and she's the one who's going to go on trial, and possibly cause the unity of the fleet to disentigrate (irony), resulting in the almost guranteed doom of the entire Azurite people. And then she won't care, and Durkon and Elan will abandon her, and she deserves it. I may have hated Kubota, but I still wanted him to be done in by his own hand, not Deus Ex Machina.
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2008-09-23, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
V is male, iirc.
I think V is also now my second favourite character from a RPG/fantasy themed comic.hikari&&
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2008-09-23, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
This reminds me of something.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html
Yeah, well, you probably shouldn't have discussed how you're going to beat the system in front of the guy charged with upholding the system. I still get to make Listen checks when I'm three feet away, you know.
Kubota is someone Vaarsuvius knows has been responsible for countless attacks on the fleet, countless civilian deaths and lost ships, and most recently, the summoning of a devil that had very nearly finished them off, had it not been for a lucky roll on Prismatic Spray. And now, Vaarsuvius arrives on the scene to see Kubota ranting about how he'll go free no matter what the heroes do, and will eventually get them - and their little dog too. How he has surrendered in name only and the heroes' foolish sense of honour is only a stepstone on his path to villainy.
Vaarsuvius did pretty much the only sensible thing under the circumstances - he realised that, indeed, handling the bastard with kid gloves of honour won't get them anywhere, and therefore an alternative course must be taken. It's not evil as much as anti-hero-esque. If anything, it reminds me of the famous scene in Firefly where Mal kicks an 'uncooperative' mook through the engine to nip that little vendetta at the bud.
And I think Elan's reaction is more shock than horror... He was ready to chop Kubota into bloody pieces when he jumped onto that boat and was clearly both frustrated and outraged when his heroic principles forbade him from killing a man on his knees... Even if the man knows exactly what he's doing and is already planning to exploit your 'weakness' and stab you in the back. Therefore, Vaarsuvius' swift solution to the problem shook him heavily. I expect the next strip will show Elan trying to reprimand V and the elf explaining with cold and flawless logic exactly why Kubota had to die.Last edited by Kaytara; 2008-09-23 at 10:50 AM.
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2008-09-23, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
and yet again, V just keeps pouring on the awesome.
"Hey, look. I just regenerated a finger... Guess which one?"
Tus me betheir, augus og be feachaint
Key to the understanding of all religions is that a god's idea of entertainment is Snakes and Ladders with greased rungs.
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2008-09-23, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Excellent! *@#$ Yeah. Just... *#@$ yeah.
That needed to be done.
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2008-09-23, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-23, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
This is typical of the misguidedness of this thread. A Chaotic person virtually by definition is disinterested in following proper procedure. Being 'judged and sentenced by one's peers' is something that a Lawful person, not a Chaotic one, would find important. A Chaotic Good person should have contempt for any process an evil wrongdoer could use to escape punishment for his evil acts.
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2008-09-23, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-23, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
He hadn't surrendered and was trying to kill him, no deal
Eh, one needs to keep in mind that "good" and "evil" are essentially broad categorizations. It really doesn't recommend the most advisable course of action, but simply reflects the kind of general morality a character thinks would serve best.
The act was evil. Whether or not it was murder, justifiable homocide, or any other synonym for "the blasty end went into the bad guy, and -POOF-, no bad guy," killing a surrendered prisoner is clearly evil. But V is not a Paladin, so big whoo. V isn't even good aligned, as we saw in the dirt farmer side-story (I'm sure there were other examples, but that for me was the clearest). He's not going to have a minute's trouble going into trance over Kabuto.
What am I evading? You say that V's actions are evil because the BoED says murder is always evil, but you choose to ignore other things from the exact same "always evil" list because you think their inclusion is stupid. In other words, you're basing the entire argument off of your subjective interpretation of which parts of that list should be on there and which shouldn't.
No, its word is law when it suits your argument. And it's 3.0 anyway.
I'm sorry, can you give me a comic number where V claimed to support the cause of Good? And I'm reasonably certain that V wouldn't have been hiding under his/her bed if Kubota had been armed and charging. Cowardice is rhetoric thrown around too often these days.
2) of course its cowardly, because killing a man who not only can't fight back and is helpless, but also willingly put his life in your hands is simply craven. It isn't respect for life (good) nor is it honorable, its an act of evil
Actually, I'm pretty sure the murder happened to save the hundreds of lives that would be lost if Kubota used his trial to incite a civil war. And I think it was pretty well established that Kubota would have walked.
2) And even then, murder is not the only solution to the problem. By committing evil, you give into evil and hand them a victory
THe difference here is that V wasn't killing him out of revenge, he was killing him because, y'know, he was going to deliberately cause the deaths of innocents, and Hinjo and Elan wouldn't stop Kubota.
2) Why wouldn't they? Are you saying you have 100% absolute proof he would win? No, you have his bragging.
Kubota mentioned he was detect-proof
Clearly, after confessing to the full extent of his villainous crimes, Lord Kubota opted for honorable suicide. For indeed, annoying a powerful wizard who prepared Disintegrate and Gust of Wind that morning is a very straightforward means of committing suicide.
I do not play D&D. So, my knowledge would be negligible. But I think someone mentioned spells like Raise Dead, Speak With Dead and so on. If Kubota is planning to lie through the detection, surely the other methods would still work. Doesn't Sense Motive help? Old-Fashioned Detective Work (lack of poison on Therkla's person, why the heck Kubota carries this with him everywhere, motive), Oracles/Scrying, Summon Qarr and what-not. Interrogating the accused doesn't seem like the sort-of thing that would get the most convictions anyway. The arguments justifying murder don't really stick because there were alternate things you could do between now and then. Even I WANTED to see Kubota punished but we're not animals, we should be able to draw the line between what we want and what we should do.
Elfey, i'm a little confused on what your saying actually? Could you repeat that.
Precisely.
EVERY character in Order of the Stick is a serial murderer by the standards of "modern law". Well, save maybe Elan... So, the fact that V murdered someone by the standards of "modern law" is irrelevant unless you judge the entire world by them. Don't even try a "it's war" because it's a war on "EVIL" and guess who was clearly evil? It amounts to breaking the Geneva Convention.
wrong. Other than Belkar. The OOTS may have killed a lot of people, but every time that was in defense of themselves or others, where there enemies did not surrender or beg for mercy. That is essentually, just killing (neutral act) rather than murder (evil act)
If a paladin can ambush-murder an innocent goblin child and that is not 'evil' in D&D terms, then slaying Kubota - a very guilty party - in this circumstance cannot be considered 'evil' either.
Both SoD and the main comic have made it abundantly clear - there is nothing 'evil' about killing an evil creature. That it does not comport with modern ideas about due process is irrelevant.
2) Simply being evil is not a crime. If MIko has killed belkar back then, she would have fallen
Besides, Kubota surrendered in only the most Lawful interpretation of his behavior. Even at the point of a sword, even tied as a prisoner, even in the face of individuals who unquestionably knew he was a murderer, and worse - he was still issuing threats. To call him 'unarmed' is false; he was armed with the laws of the Azurites and he continued to wield them up to the moment of his death.
2) Unarmed? Certainly, he was phyically helpless. That doesn't justify killing. Now you can still attack him in non volient ways, getting him arrested ect.
Yeah.. I think the people talking against V are all flippin' crazy. All this talk about Kubota being killed in cold blood because he's an unarmed prisoner or whatever... He has a very long history of undermining lawful government for his own gain. V's alignment has never been made known, but this was definitely not an evil act. V appeared to take no pleasure in the situation, nor did he/she do it on a whim. Vaarsuvius did it because he had it coming and it was time for the story to move out of this boring lull.
Azure city, pre-fall, used to summon celestial beings for imparting judgement; these beings, the literal embodiment of law and good, could dish out capital punishment.
Please do not reply to this post. I am not interested in discussing with you.
Ah, but if you are sworn to uphold the law, do you serve it by putting the man in a position to violate it?
Not an argument for a LG to use, but I'd accept it from a NG or CG just fine.
The only argument against THAT is whether or not Kubota deserves death. And let's face it: I *dare* someone to justify his actions in a way that makes execution in the face of his probable "innocent" finding a good thing.
2) Yeah, i do. Death is not the only solution . Just because he is evil and guilty, does not mean we need to solve things through killing, which is not what good in D&D stands for
from
EELast edited by EvilElitest; 2008-09-23 at 11:31 AM.
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2008-09-23, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
I know many people argue that V was doing it because it was the most practical thing to do, however, I think it may actually be frustration towards Kubota, that made V do what she did, somehow, I find it hard to believe that her reasoning abilities are at their prime right now.
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2008-09-23, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
V's fine. He confessed before V's actions, and even stated how he'd thwart the legal system. It may not be the Azure City way of doing things, but V's not a citizen of Azure City, and likely not overly Lawful either...
Personally, I hate the Lawful / Chaotic discussions. I used to love them and then came to a realization... The ideas of Law and Chaos are extremely subjective as a single act can be both lawful and chaotic based on someone's perceptions...
People who tend towards the left-end of lawfulness IRL will assume the concept of Lawfulness is broken whenever something happens they disagree with. They also tend to push their own concept of what lawfulness is on others - very similar to political leftism.
People who tends towards the right end of chaotic IRL will lawyer their way out of normally lawful concepts via tangents and circumstances - akin to defense attorneys ;).
Looking at V's act in the mind of the left ended alignments: V broke the law. The target was subdued and being taken in and the killing was a vigilante murder in cold blood. The laws of Azure City, in which V is currently within a province of, should apply.
Looking at V's act in the mind of the right ended alignments: V heard the rant and knew that this person would thwart the law, thus he acted pre-emptively, in light of possible future self-defense, and killed the evil-doer.
In my own opinion, it's fine for any alignment when viewed in moderation. Remember one basic facet of the game: In the D&D Universe, killing something you _know_ is evil is never considered an evil act unless it involvs pleasure, torture, evil descriptor magic, demon summoning, etc.. - which V did not employ. He just dusted him. Quick, Painless, Effective."What kind of men are these against whom you have brought us to fight? Men who do not compete for money, but for honor" -- Herodotus, VIII, 26
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2008-09-23, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-23, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
It is because talking about evil is not a crime. If he does escape, then kill him, but simply talking about it isn't a crime
Good and Evil are purposes. Good is not pacifism. Good is not kindness. Good is not polite. Good is not even remotely Lawful. Good is what is best for the innocent.
In some cases, what is best for the innocent is the death of one who is guilty. Regardless of the circumstances. The only difference between what V did and a lawfully sentenced hanging is the courts, not whether the act was Good or Evil. Just because a bunch of stuffy guys in robes give the okay, murdering a prisoner doesn't become okay. By your logic, a death sentence is just murdering a prisoner and thus, an evil act.
Doesn't fit, does it?
from
EE
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2008-09-23, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Why do you keep talking about "crimes?" You can be a criminal and be Good. You can obey the law (even write or dictate the law) and be Evil. This is explicitly true.
Due process and law are Lawful traits, not Good ones.Be WARY of rousing a rizard's... of wousing a wizard's... be CAREFUL about making a magician ANGRY!
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2008-09-23, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-09-23, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
However, a dead man can still be investigated and have all the misdeeds he perpetrated in life brought to light, exposing co-conspirators.
V is going to be guilty of murder and she's the one who's going to go on trial, and possibly cause the unity of the fleet to disentigrate (irony)
A trial will only happen if Hinjo finds out.
And good luck stopping V from leaving if shi wants. Nobody has enough juice in the fleet to stand up to V, and they have no way of nullifying V's escape spells.
And then she won't care, and Durkon and Elan will abandon her, and she deserves it. I may have hated Kubota, but I still wanted him to be done in by his own hand, not Deus Ex Machina.
There's nothing improbable about V, who's already been shown to capable of casting disintegrate and choosing expediency on occasion, would, when hearing a second-string villain's monologue, decide to just off him.
And deus ex machinas solve all the problems neatly. This only stops Kubota; there are other nobles, probably just as ruthless, waiting in the wings. And V will have to answer to Hinjo if Hinjo finds out. And Elan's going to flip. DEMs don't cause problems...
And Durkon is going to be annoyed; he's in a bit of a spot, however. He's got good wis, but not so much int. He doesn't seem to know where to start the search for Haley and Roy. He still needs V.
And Elan's ... well, Elan.Last edited by sihnfahl; 2008-09-23 at 11:43 AM.
May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.
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2008-09-23, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
21 pages with reactions. Good episode indeed. But I guess that nearly noone is going to read it all.
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2008-09-23, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
EvilElitest, it seems to me that all of your arguments can be roughly summed up as 'killing a defenseless men is ALWAYS evil, regardless of the circumstances'. Indeed, you pretty much said that yourself.
I find myself in strong disagreement with that kind of radical thinking. Circumstances DO matter. The problem, in part, stems from our attempts to define things that naturally defy definition. For example, how do you define defenseless? Simply unarmed? So what if Kubota isn't wielding a knife or a sword? His has different weapons at his disposal, and I'm not even talking about the poison ring, which, as far as Elan knows, might still be a threat. However, Kubota is really armed to the teeth with his guile, cunning and ability to evade and dodge through legal loopholes, so much that he doesn't even bother concealing it from his enemies and deliberately rubs it in.
If it's a man with a gun threatening to shoot you, any action against that man can be justified as a pre-emptive strike or simply self-defense.
If it's a man who can twist the laws and is threatening to use them against to discredit and kill you, any action against that man is also self-defense.
Kubota was armed and dangerous all right, he simply had weapons of a different kind.
Also, I think you should drop the extremes. Things are never as simple as just 'that man you killed was unarmed, therefore you're a murderer!!!' and there is, IMO, nothing more foolish than having such categorical notions, if only because they simply aren't applicable in practical situations and are therefore little better than having no notions at all.Last edited by Kaytara; 2008-09-23 at 12:06 PM.
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2008-09-23, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Kudos. Being a soulless automaton I rarely react to a comic let alone laugh aloud, but this one earned it.
The game doesn't start until you reach epic levels.
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2008-09-23, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
This is a very, very good point...maybe something to look into, maybe harmless.
Did NOT see this coming, but it is an interesting end, although I can't see the Azurites not demanding repercussions for this.
I agree with people who say this is not a crime, Kubota is a muderer and a sadist (it seems), he was also planning to cause untold chaos and quite possibly doom the remaining population on the ships for his own selfish goals. While he didn't need to be...dealt with...so abruptly, he needed to be removed from any position of power, fast.
IMO, this falls under the category of "Aragorn murdered the Mouth of Sauron and it is a crime" as rather silly and illogical arguments for characters committing unjust "murder."
Kubota was willing to kill a pregnant woman in her sleep...seriously guys...he deserved no better than this.Last edited by LordVader; 2008-09-23 at 12:03 PM.
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2008-09-23, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #595 - The Discussion Thread
Are you still arguing about this? Nobody is going to change anyone else's mind here, let's just agree to disagree and see what happens.
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2008-09-23, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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