The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA

[Remuko]

I know its kinda outside the scope of the thread but if the Scourge had the same caveat at the ooze splitting does, would that change things much? Would it be enough to no longer need the * or is it still too problematic an ability. I agree its absurd as is, I'm just curious whether toning it down to "ooze-level" actually is a significant change or not.

[OgresAreCute]

I know its kinda outside the scope of the thread but if the Scourge had the same caveat at the ooze splitting does, would that change things much? Would it be enough to no longer need the * or is it still too problematic an ability. I agree its absurd as is, I'm just curious whether toning it down to "ooze-level" actually is a significant change or not.

Ooze Split still gets the * in this thread.

[javcs]

I'd probably cap the Split ability at one iteration. At most, I'd allow "permanent ability score modifier" instances of itself in total; probably either Con, Cha, or Wis.

Query: can a Split Protean Scourge assist itself?


If we ignore Split, it's a respectable +0, and Split is definitely due a DM warning, so +0* as is.

I agree that it definitely feels more like it was supposed to be some kind of evil outsider. That or some kind of enhanced-doppleganger type deal.

[Inevitability]

What are some powers of 2 that work as useful benchmarks for establishing how bizarre that number is? I think that would help the impact of the data.

2⁴ ≈ Rugby team.
2¹⁰ ≈ Population of Vatican City.
2¹⁵ ≈ Population of San Marino.
2²¹ ≈ Population of Slovenia.
2²⁴ ≈ Population of Saudi Arabia.
2²⁸ ≈ Population of Indonesia.
2³⁰ ≈ Population of China/India
2³³ ≈ World population.
2³⁷ ≈ Amount of people who have ever lived.
2³⁸ ≈ Amount of stars in the Milky Way
2⁴¹ ≈ Amount of trees on Earth
2⁵⁹ ≈ Age of the universe in seconds.
2⁶³ ≈ Amount of grains of sand on Earth.
2⁷⁶ ≈ Amount of stars in the universe.
2¹⁵⁵ ≈ Upper bound on possible chess positions.
2²²⁶ ≈ Number of ways to shuffle a deck of cards.
2²⁶⁶ ≈ Amount of atoms in the universe.
2³³² ≈ Googol

All of those are completely achievable hit point values for a level 20 character.

[Aniikinis]

Dear Lady Eilistraee... I knew there was a reason that name sounded familiar. I will forever regret putting this thing in my campaign and letting the party use it as a minion machine to drown the world in bodies. But, aside from split shenanigans it's fairly tame. +0* without a doubt.

[Nifft]

Net +40 stats is great. SR 24 helps, even if it doesn't scale. Sorcerer casting is great. (Shapechanger) subtype is amazing in terms of immunities; note that Petrification immunity is basically worthless because of this. Poison immunity is nice. DR 10/silver is very good; the two energy resistances are nice to have.


Remove Split and it could be a playable canned gish.

With Split it's LA -*: go directly to Warning, do not pass Go, do not collect 3d6 in order.

Pick up some fast healing or regeneration and you could easily fill a universe. That's hilarious but not useful for any game I want to play or run.

[Caelestion]

LA +0* (without Split). It's obviously unplayable in any sensible way with Split.

[Efrate]

A solid +0* unplayable with split, at least equal to a pc without.

As a TO exercise, how many would you need to make them into a swarm, dark speech a hive mind, combine all of those copies essentially, then make pun pun cry? The numbers are so staggering that I think this is an emminently reasonable extrapolation.

Also Abj. champ is natively accessible if they get combat casting in any way, which helps cl a fair bit.

[Zaq]

Super weird critter here. We’ve got an obvious asterisk for Split, which is extremely problematic even when played by a GM as a monster of the week, let alone as a PC.

Without it, it’s actually got racial spellcasting! Are Change Shape and the numbers it gets worth the loss of casting advancement? Eh, hard to say. 5 lost caster levels is seriously nontrivial. I think I’ll say that the fact that it does have a way to scale (being only 5 levels slow and not, y’know, 13) is a serious mitigating factor. I’d be okay with a cautious +0*. Underpowered compared to a human Sorc or equivalent CR, but not grievously so.

Can it qualify for any interesting PrCs with its RHD alone?

[ViperMagnum357]

LA+0*. This thing should not be in a campaign world until the mechanically broken Split ability is adjudicated and dealt with. Solid otherwise, about on par with class levels of comparable ECL. Everything else I would have said has been detailed already.

[Elkad]

And if Split was restricted to a single copy? (Only the original can have a copy out, and only one.)
You'd get 2 full characters (-1hp, and split spell slots).

That would be +2 straight by the book. (3 L15 characters and 2 L13s is exactly the same as 4 L15s). Seems reasonable.

[TiaC]

+0*, as it casts like a bard with full BAB and decent stats.

When I first read this, I assumed that it could only split once, because it never mentions having more than two copies. In that case, I'd put them at +1, because the shared spells weakens them appreciably.

I'd also point out that as written, you can have an infinite number of them, as nothing stops the copies from healing to full health.

[No brains]

2⁴ ≈ Rugby team.
2¹⁰ ≈ Population of Vatican City.
2¹⁵ ≈ Population of San Marino.
2²¹ ≈ Population of Slovenia.
2²⁴ ≈ Population of Saudi Arabia.
2²⁸ ≈ Population of Indonesia.
2³⁰ ≈ Population of China/India
2³³ ≈ World population.
2³⁷ ≈ Amount of people who have ever lived.
2³⁸ ≈ Amount of stars in the Milky Way
2⁴¹ ≈ Amount of trees on Earth
2⁵⁹ ≈ Age of the universe in seconds.
2⁶³ ≈ Amount of grains of sand on Earth.
2⁷⁶ ≈ Amount of stars in the universe.
2¹⁵⁵ ≈ Upper bound on possible chess positions.
2²²⁶ ≈ Number of ways to shuffle a deck of cards.
2²⁶⁶ ≈ Amount of atoms in the universe.
2³³² ≈ Googol

All of those are completely achievable hit point values for a level 20 character.

Thank you to you and OgresAreCute who replied last page. Now I'm getting the mental image of a bunch of PS sitting on top of each of those things.

[javcs]

And if Split was restricted to a single copy? (Only the original can have a copy out, and only one.)
You'd get 2 full characters (-1hp, and split spell slots).

That would be +2 straight by the book. (3 L15 characters and 2 L13s is exactly the same as 4 L15s). Seems reasonable.

Not sure it's quite that good - nothing in Split appears to indicate that the copies get any gear, or benefit from any gear or buffs active on the original. So it's a fully equipped and buffed L13 and a naked L13 that just got slapped with a disjunction.

Or you buy two full sets of gear with the WBL intended for one, and make, equip, and buff the copy out of combat.
Or make a build that is entirely gear and buff independent.

If you want the copy to be more than just ablative meat, anyways.

[Inevitability]

Not sure it's quite that good - nothing in Split appears to indicate that the copies get any gear, or benefit from any gear or buffs active on the original. So it's a fully equipped and buffed L13 and a naked L13 that just got slapped with a disjunction.

Or you buy two full sets of gear with the WBL intended for one, and make, equip, and buff the copy out of combat.
Or make a build that is entirely gear and buff independent.

If you want the copy to be more than just ablative meat, anyways.

Ablative meat that can cast spells: aka what half of 3.5s classes wish they could be. Don't write it off just because it doesn't get buffs and gear: a caster doesn't need either to be functional.

[Thurbane]

Is LA -0* the appropriate rating for something that can break a game? Honest question, not sure exactly how the system works in that regards.

Unfortunately, some creatures have an ability that is far too problematic to allow as a PC, and I believe split definitely qualifies.

[Inevitability]

Is LA -0* the appropriate rating for something that can break a game? Honest question, not sure exactly how the system works in that regards.

* basically means 'because this has a certain broken ability, it would be too powerful to properly play, no matter what LA it gets; the LA given here assumes the broken ability is completely removed from the creature'.

So if the protean scourge gets +0* that basically means 'unplayably overpowered if it has Split, +0 LA otherwise'. Something like the shadow, which can create and control infinite shadows, has +3*, meaning 'unplayably overpowered if it has Create Spawn, +3 LA otherwise'. The black pudding has -0*, meaning 'unplayably overpowered if it has Split, -0 LA otherwise'.

The idea is that a player who wants to play one of those creatures plays a version that lacks the offending ability and uses the listed LA.

[javcs]

Ablative meat that can cast spells: aka what half of 3.5s classes wish they could be. Don't write it off just because it doesn't get buffs and gear: a caster doesn't need either to be functional.

True, but it's also going to be limited to spells that don't have Saves and are SR: No, since it won't have the items to boost either. And it's still 5 casting levels behind a straight caster, 3 levels behind a straight caster cohort. Probably casts about on par with a gish cohort. But without the gear.
That's if it's a +0 LA - with the proposed +2 LA I was responding to, it's 7 levels behind a straight caster, 5 levels behind a straight caster cohort.

A copy is by no means useless, but it is not exactly the equal of a regular character of the same level, either.
Can't even Warshaper with it, since Change Shape is disabled when Split.

And since spell slots are shared, either you build for a casting copy and a non- or minimally casting original, or you burn through your spells per day in a hurry.

If Split is limited to a single copy, it's roughly equivalent to a free cohort without gear. I think.

[Thurbane]

* basically means 'because this has a certain broken ability, it would be too powerful to properly play, no matter what LA it gets; the LA given here assumes the broken ability is completely removed from the creature'.

So if the protean scourge gets +0* that basically means 'unplayably overpowered if it has Split, +0 LA otherwise'. Something like the shadow, which can create and control infinite shadows, has +3*, meaning 'unplayably overpowered if it has Create Spawn, +3 LA otherwise'. The black pudding has -0*, meaning 'unplayably overpowered if it has Split, -0 LA otherwise'.

The idea is that a player who wants to play one of those creatures plays a version that lacks the offending ability and uses the listed LA.

Thanks for that.

In that case, put me down for LA +0*.

I think it could lend itself well enough to a gish build, even it caps out at 7th level spells. I would think something like MH 13/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 5 (with Sorc 15 casting) would be a relatively viable character.

[Elkad]

Not sure it's quite that good - nothing in Split appears to indicate that the copies get any gear, or benefit from any gear or buffs active on the original. So it's a fully equipped and buffed L13 and a naked L13 that just got slapped with a disjunction.

Or you buy two full sets of gear with the WBL intended for one, and make, equip, and buff the copy out of combat.
Or make a build that is entirely gear and buff independent.

If you want the copy to be more than just ablative meat, anyways.

It's a L15 character in 2 L13 slots. WBL is 200k gp worth of gear vs 2*110k gp. So only short 10k GP each. Hardly "naked".
Or alternately, a L13 with L15 gear, and a naked L13.. Either way it's got correct equipment for L15, which is the slot it's in.

Some buffs may be problematical, but you sure won't have any issues hitting the extra guy with Haste, etc at that level.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Its type being monstrous humanoid rather than outsider is slightly surprising...

I'd say it was one of those creatures built to subvert player expectations of the sorts of things a creature with a given appearance would have...except that its resistances and whatnot are exactly what you'd expect from a devil.

As a TO exercise, how many would you need to make them into a swarm, dark speech a hive mind, combine all of those copies essentially, then make pun pun cry? The numbers are so staggering that I think this is an emminently reasonable extrapolation.

Except that there aren't swarms of creatures larger than Tiny. There are mobs in the DMG2, but that only takes a few dozen creatures at most.

[Efrate]

I know there aren't swarms larger than tiny, but I'm sure we can find a way to reduce size and use swarm stuff. Seeing as how the number of these is potentially so absurdly high, they can fill the 30k creatures of a size or whatever for a swarm. Just theorycrafting how to break them more.

[No brains]

Maybe they're monstrous humanoids because WotC was barely prescient enough to know know one should ever Planar Ally/ Binding one of these.

[danielxcutter]

True, but it's also going to be limited to spells that don't have Saves and are SR: No, since it won't have the items to boost either. And it's still 5 casting levels behind a straight caster, 3 levels behind a straight caster cohort. Probably casts about on par with a gish cohort. But without the gear.
That's if it's a +0 LA - with the proposed +2 LA I was responding to, it's 7 levels behind a straight caster, 5 levels behind a straight caster cohort.

A copy is by no means useless, but it is not exactly the equal of a regular character of the same level, either.
Can't even Warshaper with it, since Change Shape is disabled when Split.

And since spell slots are shared, either you build for a casting copy and a non- or minimally casting original, or you burn through your spells per day in a hurry.

If Split is limited to a single copy, it's roughly equivalent to a free cohort without gear. I think.

Wu Jens have Body Outside of Body as a 7th-level spell, which is apparently quite good for a gish(especially JPMs), and Egoists get Fission, also as a 7th-level power, and yet another method of Manifesters-Breaking-The-Action-Economy^TM which are already quite plentiful.

Split is a bit of a mix between both, so even you're only limited to one copy with zilch gear, it's still more or less an at-will 7th-level SLA, and a very useful one at that. Arcane Spellsurge and/or Arcane Fusion could get silly, and fast - and that's just for combat, if you can't think of at least one method of utilizing at-will duplication out-of-combat, you're not trying hard enough.

Having one copy focus on physical attacks(and keep associated gear) and one focus on spells(also keeping associated gear), at least seems like a solid tactic, if not the single best.

Oh yeah, not getting 9ths isn't quite as big a problem as one might think, because normal Protean Scourges don't either - they're CR 12; only one level behind doesn't seem too bad to me, especially since Monstrous Humanoid HD are still at least passable. As other people have mentioned, 2 levels of Sorcerer and 5 of Abjurant Champion get you a very solid character, at least roughly on par with a Bard. Note that the scythe proficiency means no need to dip or take Martial Proficiency, and scythes are actually fairly decent as weapons go.

I'd say +0*, with * for infinite Split abuse potential.

[Inevitability]

Quaraphon

Centaur good, ogre good, ogretaur disappointingly bad.

9 aberration RHD simply cripple this thing. It's got okay-ish natural weapons that it can use with manufactured ones, as well as passable strength and constitution scores, but in the end this is just another RHD-inflated brute. Deafening Bellow, its sole unique trait, is weak bordering on useless (reminder: any potential target is also in charge range): the developers should've made it a swift/free action to encourage some use at least.

A disappointing -0 LA overall. With like... four or five hit dice trimmed this might've been a decent playable monster.

[javcs]

Concur, LA -0.
Even if the DM allowed it to take mounted/etc. style feats the way centaurs can.
Deafening bellow isn't even that good - it's only 2d6 damage 1/day, and you're more likely than not to hit your entire party with it.

I think the "best" thing I can say about the quaraphin is that it has some useful racial class skills (Intimidate, Listen, Spot, Survival).

Just play a regular centaur. Maybe even one with a template, but seriously, don't play this thing.

[Thurbane]

I wonder if he's friends with Lhosk? He looks like he might be!

Apart from the 9 awful HD, this guy may be OK.

Upsides: 40 ft move, +7 natural AC, 3 natural weapons, +10 Str, +12 Con.

Downsides: aforementioned RHD, -4 Int, -4 Wis; underwhelming 1/day special attack (I though maybe it would qualify for the Siren PrC, but the attack isn't mind affecting).

With less HD, or even a better type of HD (Monstrous Humanoid would be preferable; Aberration are one the worst RHD in the game), might be OK-ish as a melee brute.

As it stands, LA -0 from me.

[ViperMagnum357]

LA -0 on the Quaraphon: +14 net abilities is appropriate around 4 RHD, not 9. Losing 3 points of BAB on something with no bonus to Dex or Cha, and -4 penalties to Int and Wis is completely unacceptable, since the arrangement pigeonholes you into a brute that desperately needs the BAB. Also 10ft slower than average for a large quadruped, which is almost insulting. Overall, retch.

Marginally related: if/when we get to those books, can we break down and discuss the Celestial Paragons and Archfiends from BoED and BoVD? Like, treating them as if they were a base monster rather than unique, and run them through our analysis here? I think that would be very interesting.

[Zaq]

9 RHD. Nothing on par with maneuvers. Obvious -0. Next!

[Random Sanity]

For some reason this thing makes me think of Pablo Picasso doing the cover illustration for a Lovecraft book.