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2019-05-02, 03:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
Hitting Belkar will actually improve the chances of success, since he can't hear commands from the vampires... Or can domination orders be made telepathically?
Does V need protection? I thought, it only works on evil characters... So, neutral characters should be fine...
And they probably need to protect Hilgya from Holy Word...
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2019-05-02, 04:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
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2019-05-02, 04:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
It's...
It's beautiful.
Guess who brought backup this time, team Evil!"I am the white void. I am the cold steel. I am the just sword. With blade in hand, I shall reap the sins of this world and cleanse it in the flames of destruction.My name is Hakumen. Your time has come!"
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2019-05-02, 06:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2014
Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
That joke's been done, and vampire domination does not rely on verbal commands, at least not for Belkar.
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2019-05-02, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2015
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2019-05-02, 07:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
It works on nongood characters. Remember what it did to the Lawful Neutral Kilkil?
And they probably need to protect Hilgya from Holy Word...
The_Weirdo has apparently given up any semblance of caring that he's the worst thing that ever happened to the forum's general opinion of Hilgya in favor of simply indulging his own rage that anyone ever told him that mass murder is not an appropriate response to being victimized.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-05-02, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
Breaking up the boredom that comes from living under a bridge, perhaps? *note to self- in my next campaign, airships launching from an aircraft carrier need to happen* Apparently, many generations of dwarfs in OoTS verse, as well as about 6000 years of human history in a variety of cultures, disagree with you. I thus wonder at the grounds for your assertion. Where is the absolutist example coming from? (Aside: due to my own views on marriage, had our family tried to influence my sister into an arranged marriage I'd have taken her side and fought them on it. But of course, they didn't). Not with certainty. Some companies still have their internal janitorial staff, but I've also seen plenty of what you describe.
We thank you for you dropping in, please come back soon! The signals on that were pretty blatant from the author. One wonders at how those signals were missed.
Poisoning the well noted.
Scorched earth, eh? Chivington would heartily approve of your approach. But why not just nuke them from orbit? It's the only way to be sure. Go big, or go home.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-05-02 at 08:38 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-05-02, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Madrid, kingdom of Spain
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
Hilgya's marriage again???... Sweet merciful Jesus.. 😳
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2019-05-02, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-05-02, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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2019-05-02, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
There I was wondering if there was a clever way they could get into the meeting. Guess ‘bum-rush’ the place took me a bit by surprise ;) Let’s hope it doesn’t all go Leeroy Jenkins...
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2019-05-02, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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- Seoul
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2019-05-02, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
Keltest claimed months ago Hilgya wasn't a victim because she must have done something.
When that didn't take, Keltest came here, claiming Hilgya was only forced to sit through a ceremony.
Marrying someone off by force is horrible. There's no two ways about that. And yet Keltest says otherwise, by first acting like Hilgya "must have done something" and then acting like it was only "sitting through a ceremony".
So yes: if I'm going to be forced to shout the obvious at walls again, death and Hel to Hilgya's entire clan (minus her and Kudzu, of course).
Get on with the program. Keltest, at this point, is arguing that they only forced Hilgya to "sit through a ceremony". This stopped being about whether it was okay to bankrupt or whether it would be okay to kill those sexual traffickers quite a few pages ago.
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2019-05-02, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
Sometimes, a good plan executed now is better than a perfect plan executed later. (Paraphrase of General George S. Patton) If you say so ... wait, do you realize that you have a small credibility problem in this flavor of discourse?
So - link or it never happened.
How about we stick to the current discussion?Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-05-02 at 09:29 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-05-02, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Madrid, kingdom of Spain
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
What you don't get is that everyone agrees that forced marriage is horrible but not a justification for murder. Your insistence is only damaging your own position and making people dislike a character that otherwise is interesting and even compelling.
Of course you are free to continue your endless struggle, but it is becoming increasingly tedious.
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2019-05-02, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=895
and
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=437
No. Not everyone agrees that forced marriage is horrible. And not everyone agrees that blamng the victim is wrong either. That's the entire point: Keltest, among others, does not, and there are links just above to that effect.
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2019-05-02, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
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2019-05-02, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
Neither of those prove that "Keltest claimed months ago Hilgya wasn't a victim because she must have done something". The closest thing is a hypothetical. I suspect that you simply can't comprehend the idea of a hypothetical, but for the real world at large, hypotheticals are not claims.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-05-02 at 09:44 AM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-05-02, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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2019-05-02, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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- Madrid, kingdom of Spain
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2019-05-02, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
That's rich coming from you. Your whole premise is "If they didn't want to be murdered (or bankrupted, or whatever), they shouldn't have done what they did!" That's the epitome of victim-blaming!
What you refuse to acknowledge is that people can be perpetrators of one bad act and victims of another. Doing something bad doesn't mean you can't later be victimized.
And before you take part or all of this as some sort of defense of forced marriage, let me be clear: I am NOT defending forced marriage or defending Hilgya's clan's decision to marry her off at crossbow point. I am simply stating that bad acts do not automatically render someone incapable of also being victimized themselves.Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-05-02 at 09:51 AM.
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2019-05-02, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
And now we've moved from an abstract, universal principle (forced marriage cannot justify homicide) to the specific circumstances of Hilgya's case. Where you are of course correct - that she was at no point (after the wedding) at imminent or even anything more than hypothetical risk of bodily harm.
Of course, this is merely the modern law of self-defense. One could imagine a regime where hypothetical risk of bodily harm or gender-based violence is a justification for killing - it depends on how much relative value you place on sparing people gender-based violence versus preserving life, and given the demographics of who tends to perpetuate and be the victim of gender-based violence, how much you value men and women.Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-05-02 at 09:52 AM.
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2019-05-02, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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2019-05-02, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-05-02, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-05-02, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
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2019-05-02, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
No. She was also forced to flee her homeland, or else they'd at the very least force her back into living with Ivan. She was also forced to "officially" be married, even though that marriage was a complete and utter evil sham.
Both of those things are horrible evils that you are intent on whitewashing, and I will not allow you to.
I claimed two things. One is that Keltest kept coming up with "Oh, but what if" scenarios that would justify the forced marriage. There's a link to that effect. The other is that Keltest argued that she was only forced to sit through a ceremony. There's a link to that effect.
Death and Hel to Hilgya's entire clan, minus her and Kudzu.
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2019-05-02, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
It is obvious from observing the world that some crimes are considered more severe than others. It is also obvious that the graduation of crimes is not universal, but varies from society to society based on what they value. It may be self-evident to you that homicide is a more severe wrong than rape or hypothetical rape. But it is not in fact self-evident.
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2019-05-02, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread
She CHOSE to flee her homeland. She has suffered no consequences for leaving or returning, and indeed even says herself that what she did was not a good response to her situation. Indeed, given her professed hatred of her homeland and people at the time, i'd say she got the better deal.
Last edited by Keltest; 2019-05-02 at 09:59 AM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2019-05-02, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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