Spider-Man: No Way Home - Official Teaser Trailer, just released from Sony Pictures

[Wintermoot]

I don't think Skrull given that he's actually using magic, and I don't think their impersonation abilities extend that far. I could be wrong though, I don't have any experience with Secret War/Invasion.

Assuming I'm not, that leaves a few possibilities:

Spoiler

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- Variant Strange
- Mordo
- Wanda
- ...a Loki?
- Possessed by... something
- MEPHISTO

Regardless of what's going on, this is definitely reckless for Strange.

Maybe. i'll be very surprised if this turns out to be an impersonator or evil version of Strange just because I think that's one complication too far for an already complicated movie.

I think this is just a case of the writer of this movie playing up the mischievousness, inflated sense of ability, and anti-authoritarianism of Strange from the beginning of his first movie and playing down the wisdom and balance gained by the end of his first movie/avengers appearances. Strange was certainly portrayed as capable of making rash and unwise decision. And, of course, being too impressed with his own abilities. It just feels like he's learned better. So it feels like a regression. This is Strange as Tony Stark I guess.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Wookieetank
…maybe altering the memory of everyone on a single planet in a single universe seems like less of a big deal.

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But what about all those cell phone recordings? Does the spell also erase those?

It’s presented as a memory-altering spell, but does that automatically affect digital memory as well? If not, then there will still be countless phone videos of Peter Parker floating around--not to mention Mysterio's original false claim.

[Psyren]

Maybe. i'll be very surprised if this turns out to be an impersonator or evil version of Strange just because I think that's one complication too far for an already complicated movie.

I think this is just a case of the writer of this movie playing up the mischievousness, inflated sense of ability, and anti-authoritarianism of Strange from the beginning of his first movie and playing down the wisdom and balance gained by the end of his first movie/avengers appearances. Strange was certainly portrayed as capable of making rash and unwise decision. And, of course, being too impressed with his own abilities. It just feels like he's learned better. So it feels like a regression. This is Strange as Tony Stark I guess.

It certainly could just be nothing more than inflated ego / recklessness. But I'm still hoping for some kind of catalyst to bump him back down towards that. Maybe's he's riding a high of having outsmarted Thanos in the end.

[DigoDragon]

I have to agree:

Spoiler: Out of Character?

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It seems a little weird for Dr Strange of all people to be so eager to pull a One More Day here, and hang the consequences - not just for the cosmos, but even for Peter himself. Part of me can't help but wonder - are we dealing with the right one? Or even Stephen Strange at all?

I dunno, Dr. Strange has the Eye to see into possible futures, and we know that his plan can be a bit befuddling until we get to the Endgame. Maybe there's a point to this careless use of magic?

[Wintermoot]

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But what about all those cell phone recordings? Does the spell also erase those?

It’s presented as a memory-altering spell, but does that automatically affect digital memory as well? If not, then there will still be countless phone videos of Peter Parker floating around--not to mention Mysterio's original false claim.

Spell wouldn't be very useful if it couldn't handle the little details intrinsically. Magic warps reality, not just memory.

[Ramza00]

You.... loved Spider-man 3?

Sorry but wow. You are literally the first person I've ever heard say they love that movie.

Spider-Man 3 is camp, and was going for camp. It is a mess sure but is that intent, or studio making a mess of everything instead of a simpler narrative?

I think this is just a case of anonymized the writer of this movie playing up the mischievousness, inflated sense of ability, and anti-authoritarianism of Strange from the beginning of his first movie and playing down the wisdom and balance gained by the end of his first movie/avengers appearances. Strange was certainly portrayed as capable of making rash and unwise decision. And, of course, being too impressed with his own abilities. It just feels like he's learned better. So it feels like a regression. This is Strange as Tony Stark I guess.

Strange is literally introduced as a person who tests limits, does not level things alone, is pushy, disobeys Wong, and so on. Hubris is his key flaw. “Why not?” Him doing something stupid, for even if Strange is wiser he is still the same man. He is better at pointing out his own flaw when he sees it in others and can not apply it to himself.

Spoiler

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But what about all those cell phone recordings? Does the spell also erase those?

It’s presented as a memory-altering spell, but does that automatically affect digital memory as well? If not, then there will still be countless phone videos of Peter Parker floating around--not to mention Mysterio's original false claim.

We should not assume a specific definition of memory like it is something from René Descartes mind / body dualism. It is magic first, but also in language there are many definitions of memory (also to be mindful / to remember / to remember with its Latin roots.) A trees form it’s shape remembers and is shaped by external pressures. (Axel Erlandson did some fun tree sculptures by gardening)

I would not b surprised if part of the forgetful spell also backtracks and make people forget all the good that Spider-Man has done, as well as some of his menance. Everything is connected after all.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I dunno, Dr. Strange has the Eye to see into possible futures, and we know that his plan can be a bit befuddling until we get to the Endgame. Maybe there's a point to this careless use of magic?

I do kind of wonder when he stopped looking in Infinity War. He would have had to sit through the five years between the Snap and Endgame to see the victory as it was, did he keep looking for a few years after that, to make sure Thanos didn’t have a half brother willing to drop a moon on Earth or something?

In short: sounds plausible.

Spell wouldn't be very useful if it couldn't handle the little details intrinsically. Magic warps reality, not just memory.

Another possibility is that they just simplified it for the trailer. They’ve edited scenes and dialogue for trailers before, and having Strange ramble on about all the effects of the spell for five minutes would have made it significantly less concise.

[Psyren]

Spider-Man 3 is camp, and was going for camp. It is a mess sure but is that intent, or studio making a mess of everything instead of a simpler narrative?

It was definitely executive meddling, Raimi is on the record saying he didn't want Venom in there at all. Had it just been Sandman + Hobgoblin there would have been a lot more breathing room. Or better yet, introduce black suit Spidey in 3, but then Brock becoming Venom would be the post-credits scene for this one so we can do a whole 4th movie dedicated to the symbiotes.

I dunno, Dr. Strange has the Eye to see into possible futures, and we know that his plan can be a bit befuddling until we get to the Endgame. Maybe there's a point to this careless use of magic?

We don't know that he looked past beating Thanos though, and he no longer has the Time Stone that was powering that ability.

And even if he did, that was prior to the TVA stuff, so who knows what he'd see if he were able to look now.

Strange is literally introduced as a person who tests limits, does not level things alone, is pushy, disobeys Wong, and so on. Hubris is his key flaw. “Why not?” Him doing something stupid, for even if Strange is wiser he is still the same man. He is better at pointing out his own flaw when he sees it in others and can not apply it to himself.

Yes but he also faced that flaw in his own film - given that his pride cost him his old life, cost him Christine, and then further cost him his mentor. Then he overcame that flaw by sacrificing himself repeatedly to keep Dormammu in check. He further exemplified that growth by surrendering the Time Stone to Thanos rather than trying to rely on his own power to keep it safe. So this is at best a step backward, and a reason for that would be helpful.

I would not b surprised if part of the forgetful spell also backtracks and make people forget all the good that Spider-Man has done, as well as some of his menance. Everything is connected after all.

We'll find out for sure, but my reading is that nobody will forget about Spiderman and anything he's done - they just won't tie Peter Parker to those activities anymore. Spiderman fought at the airport in Leipzig, Spiderman killed El Hombre Mysterio etc.

And yes - I do think the spell will cover electronic recordings, written accounts etc. It would be pretty useless otherwise.

[ben-zayb]

I dunno, Dr. Strange has the Eye to see into possible futures, and we know that his plan can be a bit befuddling until we get to the Endgame. Maybe there's a point to this careless use of magic?

For what it's worth, Strange seems to have a different outfit in the train scene. Maybe it's not a Skrull, but possibly something multiversal is already at work in the background even before the spell? A Strange variant sounds ridiculous enough that I want to see it.

[Ramza00]

Yes but he also faced that flaw in his own film - given that his pride cost him his old life, cost him Christine, and then further cost him his mentor. Then he overcame that flaw by sacrificing himself repeatedly to keep Dormammu in check. He further exemplified that growth by surrendering the Time Stone to Thanos rather than trying to rely on his own power to keep it safe. So this is at best a step backward, and a reason for that would be helpful.

See this is a difference of opinion. In my mind we do not overcome our flaws, much like we do not overcome / cure anxiety. We grapple with it each day, it is a struggle, but that is what being present is, that is what presence is. Strange did not cure his hubris, by my reading, as much as he did not cure his hands. He learned to not look for black and white answers that he “wishes” for, and that he can still be a positive presence in a messy world.

Strange did not fear death or craving success, he feared failure and he used arrogance as a defense mechanism. Success was a defense mechanism for he could not grapple with his fear, he could not tolerate the pain of constant pain and repetition, the totality sensation when one feels like a failure. But he could endure it, again and again and again, endlessly once he surrender his ego (but not overcoming his flaws)

The Ancient One speech would not be meaningful if he can cure his flaws, and then erase them like they do not exist.

We'll find out for sure, but my reading is that nobody will forget about Spiderman and anything he's done - they just won't tie Peter Parker to those activities anymore. Spiderman fought at the airport in Leipzig, Spiderman killed El Hombre Mysterio etc.

And yes - I do think the spell will cover electronic recordings, written accounts etc. It would be pretty useless otherwise.

Sure that was the intent of the spell, but things did not go according to plan. Likewise we can not assume that Strange is perfect at gauging the effects of the spell if everything went according to plan. He does test limits after all, and we can not always see beyond certain points.

—————

In Stranges own movie it was about the greater good and selfishness, and how fear can prevent us from cooperating and we turned to “wishes” like dormammu to deal with an unbearable dysphoric pain that we choose not to bear. Likewise we have a plot of complete and utter manipulation of The Ancient One lying and deceiving for the greater good.

Could Strange be doing this with Peter? Not recruiting him to his magic academy, but seeing Peter as a force of good and is trying to wish away Peter’s problems in order to recruit him and make him work in concert with what Strange sees as the greater good? Can Strange screw up in the process due to his own hubris and pushing the limits to the point where there are consequences Strange did not foresee?

[Psyren]

See this is a difference of opinion. In my mind we do not overcome our flaws, much like we do not overcome / cure anxiety. We grapple with it each day, it is a struggle, but that is what being present is, that is what presence is. Strange did not cure his hubris, by my reading, as much as he did not cure his hands. He learned to not look for black and white answers that he “wishes” for, and that he can still be a positive presence in a messy world.

Strange did not fear death or craving success, he feared failure and he used arrogance as a defense mechanism. Success was a defense mechanism for he could not grapple with his fear, he could not tolerate the pain of constant pain and repetition, the totality sensation when one feels like a failure. But he could endure it, again and again and again, endlessly once he surrender his ego (but not overcoming his flaws)

The Ancient One speech would not be meaningful if he can cure his flaws, and then erase them like they do not exist.

Oh, I don't think his flaw is "cured" either. But to just relapse back into it without any kind of external reason or pressure makes any kind of character growth feel hollow or meaningless. Thus my hope that such a reason is revealed in the film proper.

It would be like if Steve Rogers suddenly put all his faith in the chain of command instead of his own moral compass again, or Thor went back to hitting first and worrying about the consequences later. Those character flaws can resurface, but there usually needs to be an external shock of some kind, like Thor losing a family member.

Sure that was the intent of the spell, but things did not go according to plan. Likewise we can not assume that Strange is perfect at gauging the effects of the spell if everything went according to plan. He does test limits after all, and we can not always see beyond certain points.

He's certainly not perfect, but he himself seems to be aware of the dangers of this spell when he mentions what a big unknown the multiverse is. So ideally, he'd have a big reason of his own for taking this risk, beyond just "hey I remember that nice kid from the spaceship, he's having trouble at school now, let's rewrite reality."

In Stranges own movie it was about the greater good and selfishness, and how fear can prevent us from cooperating and we turned to “wishes” like dormammu to deal with an unbearable dysphoric pain that we choose not to bear. Likewise we have a plot of complete and utter manipulation of The Ancient One lying and deceiving for the greater good.

Could Strange be doing this with Peter? Not recruiting him to his magic academy, but seeing Peter as a force of good and is trying to wish away Peter’s problems in order to recruit him and make him work in concert with what Strange sees as the greater good? Can Strange screw up in the process due to his own hubris and pushing the limits to the point where there are consequences Strange did not foresee?

I hope not. I don't see how wanting to recruit Peter squares with hubris as a flaw. He certainly doesn't need Peter* and has every reason to not want to include him in the dangerous wizard stuff.

*Stephen Strange might not, but someone else masquerading as him might

[Zalabim]

I could see the spell (un)intentionally creating new spider-mans/new peter parkers to maintain the separation between the two identities every time Tom Holland tries to spill the beans. So the spell might work as it's supposed to and still screw things up.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Something odd I noticed - in the scene with the train, Dr. Strange isn’t wearing the Cloak of Levitation.

[Prime32]

One other possibility: Strange was already planning to cast a world-changing spell for some reason*, and decided to incorporate Spidey's request into it. Or he'd been researching a spell like that, and the request gave him an excuse to try it out.

* E.g. "I killed an ice demon but it went splat all over reality and it would take forever to find and clear all the residue by hand"

[Keltest]

One other possibility: Strange was already planning to cast a world-changing spell for some reason, and decided to incorporate Spidey's request into it. Or he'd been researching a spell like that, and the request gave him an excuse to try it out.

Or maybe he just figured that Spider-man being considered a public enemy under a false pretext was a bad thing that he genuinely wanted to fix. As he notes, Peter helped fight Thanos and save half the universe. Helping him to actually operate isnt exactly an unreasonable thing in and of itself.

[tyckspoon]

I could see the spell (un)intentionally creating new spider-mans/new peter parkers to maintain the separation between the two identities every time Tom Holland tries to spill the beans. So the spell might work as it's supposed to and still screw things up.

Spoiler: Utterly baseless speculation

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So, my guess here is the spell doesn't affect 'memory' at all. That's just the "look, you don't have the knowledge necessary to understand what I'm really doing here, so here's a lie that will be close enough that you'll stop asking questions while I do this really complicated and demanding thing" explanation.

I think the spell is a dimensional shift, probably aided by the portal-magic the slingrings use. Strange was going to It's a Wonderful Life Parker - send him to a version of the world where his secret had not yet been revealed, let him find out that there are parts of that world he finds unbearable, eventually he'll go to the Strange of that alternate universe and be sent back home, lesson learned, now we can focus on solving the problem instead of avoiding it.

So how do you figure out what dimension you go to? Tell the spell what you're looking for, let it search for it. Starts with one really simple request: Find a dimension where Spiderman's identity isn't public knowledge. Maybe one where Spiderman never existed in the first place. Plenty of ways you can meet that, if that's the only requirement and you're willing to give up some of the things Parker likes about the current world.

And then Parker starts adding new terms. Spiderman must be a secret to the public AND his best friend is Ned (not Ted or Dan who are very similar to Ned..) AND Ned and Aunt May and Mary Jane are still alive AND they do know he's Spiderman AND they're ok with it AND ...

And now the spell has to find a much, much, much more specific set of conditions. Possibly ones that do not exist, even with the multiverse and all its variants and timelines. So it's going to fail, it doesn't have enough power to do that or can't get a valid result within the permitted time, it's gotta do something else. What does it do? In this case, it seems to start linking together worlds that contain elements of what Peter wants. Can't find one world with everything? Ok, here's one where the public doesn't know you're Spiderman, here's another where Aunt May hasn't died, here's one where Ned is still alive.. connect those together so you have 'one' world where everything is true! And now you have a lot of multiversal cross-bleed which is a vaguely unspecified Bad Thing and Strange has to clean that up and ideally Spiderman doesn't get himself killed or multiversal Negative Space Wedgie'd in the process.

[Psyren]

Or maybe he just figured that Spider-man being considered a public enemy under a false pretext was a bad thing that he genuinely wanted to fix. As he notes, Peter helped fight Thanos and save half the universe. Helping him to actually operate isnt exactly an unreasonable thing in and of itself.

It looks like Peter's name was cleared though (given that he's not in jail and all), so the issue now is being an unwanted celebrity and the effect that's having on his aunt and friends. Not great certainly, but Earth-199999 is a universe where Peter doesn't have a massive rogues' gallery running around to endanger them at every turn either - and even if he did, there are many other public heroes not to mention SHIELD and SWORD who have his back and can help with that. Given that state of affairs, rewriting reality is a massive step especially if it can potentially undermine one or both of those other safeguards - which it looks like is almost exactly what ends up happening.

[Ramza00]

Oh, I don't think his flaw is "cured" either. But to just relapse back into it without any kind of external reason or pressure makes any kind of character growth feel hollow or meaningless. Thus my hope that such a reason is revealed in the film proper.

It would be like if Steve Rogers suddenly put all his faith in the chain of command instead of his own moral compass again, or Thor went back to hitting first and worrying about the consequences later. Those character flaws can resurface, but there usually needs to be an external shock of some kind, like Thor losing a family member.



He's certainly not perfect, but he himself seems to be aware of the dangers of this spell when he mentions what a big unknown the multiverse is. So ideally, he'd have a big reason of his own for taking this risk, beyond just "hey I remember that nice kid from the spaceship, he's having trouble at school now, let's rewrite reality."

Like I said earlier I think we have different opinions on how much Stephen has grown (and that is okay), in my opinion Stephen is grappling with his flaw and has NOT* demonstrated he has had 3 or more growth cycles, he is a work in progress.

Edit: Sorry this originally said Now when I meant Not.

I hope not. I don't see how wanting to recruit Peter squares with hubris as a flaw. He certainly doesn't need Peter* and has every reason to not want to include him in the dangerous wizard stuff.

*Stephen Strange might not, but someone else masquerading as him might

I am not saying Stephen is trying to make Peter a wizard’s apprentice. There are many ways to contribute, just that Stephen wants allies to help with his great purpose. Stephen and Peters main moral themes are similar enough at first glance that they are mirrors with one another that critique each other. One is top down the other is bottom up when it comes to size. As above / so below, and thus a cooperation movie will help both of them grow and remind each other of lessons they both need to learn.

[Psyren]

Like I said earlier I think we have different opinions on how much Stephen has grown (and that is okay), in my opinion Stephen is grappling with his flaw and has now demonstrated he has had 3 or more growth cycles, he is a work in progress.

Fair enough. We'll see what, if anything, catalyzed this behavior

[JadedDM]

Regardless of what's going on, this is definitely reckless for Strange.

I dunno, is it? This is the same guy who got into a car accident while texting and driving.

[M1982]

I don't think Skrull given that he's actually using magic, and I don't think their impersonation abilities extend that far. I could be wrong though, I don't have any experience with Secret War/Invasion.

Assuming I'm not, that leaves a few possibilities:

Spoiler

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- Variant Strange
- Mordo
- Wanda
- ...a Loki?
- Possessed by... something
- MEPHISTO

Regardless of what's going on, this is definitely reckless for Strange.

You're missing the most obvious solution:

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It was Agatha all along

Also of course the spell would take care of phones. After all in their memory is where they store there data ;)

[Anteros]

Strange was perfectly willing to cast this spell for Peter in the comics, so it's not that much of a stretch for him to do it in a movie.

Not really sure why MCU insists this character is Peter Parker when he shares absolutely 0 personality or character traits with him outside of having spider powers. I would enjoy these movies more if they were actually about Miles Morales instead of Miles pretending to be Peter Parker.

Regardless, it does look like a fun spectacle as long as you don't think too hard, which is all the MCU tries or needs to be.

Also, pretty sure Strange can easily solo any version of the sinister six you want to throw at him. Wonder what excuse they'll use to sideline him for the fights.

[Psyren]

I dunno, is it? This is the same guy who got into a car accident while texting and driving.

I assume you know what a "character arc" is.

You're missing the most obvious solution:

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It was Agatha all along

That's a longer way around to saying Wanda which I covered

Also of course the spell would take care of phones. After all in their memory is where they store there data ;)

Ha!

[Ramza00]

Also, pretty sure Strange can easily solo any version of the sinister six you want to throw at him. Wonder what excuse they'll use to sideline him for the fights.

Same thing that they were doing with Strange in Endgame. A water dam suddenly burst in that big giant fight so he was "occupied." Likewise Wong and others were creating shields when the big spaceship shows up blasting things.

Without those things Strange (or other Sorcerer) could have sent the gauntlet away as a defensive maneuver. Likewise Strange (or other Sorcerer) could move reinforcements around in pincher maneuvers, use gateways to slice organs, imprison people in the mirror dimension (Thanos does not have the power gauntlet to break it), or allow allies to focus energy weapons all in 1 big burst and direct it at specific targets.

Strange and company are 15th or so level wizards with 8th level spell effects (and specific 9s), thus you either have lucky attacks that knock them out for they are squishy, or you have sudden luck problems only a wizard can solve and this occupies their concentration.

------

Also a similar thing happen to Wanda in Civil War for the same reason.

Side-note it was a travesty we did not get Ebony Maw of the Black Order vs Wanda in Endgame doing a dual telekinetic battle where Wanda has to win by being creative. We could have shown off her "luck manipulative powers" for at the time Wanda just had Telekinesis and Telepathy (no magic, teleportation, reality warping, or astral projection yet), and Ebony Maw would never allow an enemy to get close enough to do telepathy / you can handwave he could fight it off.

[Psyren]

Endgame Wanda would have bodied Ebony Maw, she was fresh from having lost Vision and peak angry. If Thanos had sent in the children instead of an airstrike, it would have been like Angry Gohan vs. the Spice Boys

[Ramza00]

Endgame Wanda would have bodied Ebony Maw, she was fresh from having lost Vision and peak angry. If Thanos had sent in the children instead of an airstrike, it would have been like Angry Gohan vs. the Spice Boys

Let me have my 20 second Wanda fight before she gets mad at Thanos.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

At about 2:27, does it look to anyone else like the sandstorm is blocking the lighting bolt?

[Palanan]

Spoiler: Lightning

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Not sure--it looks like the lightning is kicking up a cloud of dust and debris, just short of Spidey.

Alternatively, the dust cloud could be interposing itself between Spidey and the lightning, but that's not my sense of what's happening. It looks more as if the lightning is walking its way towards Spidey and churning up a cloud as it goes. I really don't have the sense that the dust in this scene is moving of its own volition.

[DigoDragon]

I do kind of wonder when he stopped looking in Infinity War. He would have had to sit through the five years between the Snap and Endgame to see the victory as it was, did he keep looking for a few years after that, to make sure Thanos didn’t have a half brother willing to drop a moon on Earth or something?

Hmm, well if he found the one winning path, then he had to have viewed at least the five years until getting to the events of Infinity War. It's probable that he would have learned that he'd permanently lose the time stone in the process of those events.

What are the chances, then, that he'd be curious to look a little farther into the future to get the most of his last chance with the stone? I'd say decently good.

But if not, Dr. Strange is a bit confident in himself so I could be wrong in my idea and he's casting the spell in Spiderman NWH because he can.

And even if he did, that was prior to the TVA stuff, so who knows what he'd see if he were able to look now.

The wibbly-wobbly bit about this is that that the events of Loki start at the end of the first Avengers movie. The fact that Dr. Strange saw several million futures and that in Endgame they killed an alternate timeline Thanos as well as their own tells me that the multiverse was well established by the time Strange was looking.

For what it's worth, Strange seems to have a different outfit in the train scene. Maybe it's not a Skrull, but possibly something multiversal is already at work in the background even before the spell? A Strange variant sounds ridiculous enough that I want to see it.

Eh, several heroes get costume changes over the course of subsequent movies, so I don't personally put stock into this theory.

Something odd I noticed - in the scene with the train, Dr. Strange isn’t wearing the Cloak of Levitation.

It's plausible that the cloak is smothering someone they were fighting on the train. Could be other reasons though, but I would guess that it came off in a fight to grapple someone.

[Dragonus45]

The wibbly-wobbly bit about this is that that the events of Loki start at the end of the first Avengers movie. The fact that Dr. Strange saw several million futures and that in Endgame they killed an alternate timeline Thanos as well as their own tells me that the multiverse was well established by the time Strange was looking.

That Loki's person frame of reference effectively "begins" at the end of the first Avengers movie but the actual events of the series itself take place both across the timeline entirely and also in various special realms that exist entirely outside any possible frame of reference. Who knows when the multiverse is technically established to exist? Arguably it already always had the moment it started.