OOTS #1134 - The Discussion Thread

[The_Weirdo]

Hang on, our hypothetical meth-head only had a 70-year life expectancy to begin with? What'd he do, accidentally step on a cat's tail, so now the cats will all revolt against him and all of humanity (oppressive jerks)?

The average life expectancy in the world is 70.5 years. I rounded it down to make things easier.

[Ironsmith]

The average life expectancy in the world is 70.5 years. I rounded it down to make things easier.

Ah. Sorry, I just happen to live someplace where it's closer to 80, so...

[Rockphed]

PSA:
Depending on the bear, that is actually potentially the correct course of action. When I went camping in the Rockies, they told us that if a bear came into our campsite that we were supposed to run straight at it yelling at the top of our lungs and waving our arms in the air.
The area only had black bears, which are generally a little skittish, and they don't want to deal with a human who has gone totally nuts, because the meal isn't worth that to them. You yell in order to scare them more, and you wave your arms in the air to make yourself look bigger.
Only once did I have the pleasure of seeing someone who actually had the guts to do it. One of the counselors (a 5'2" woman) chased off what was probably a 700 lb bear. I will say that in my life, I'm not sure I've ever been more scared of a single person than watching someone run straight into the face of a bear, so I'm assuming the bear likely felt similarly. The bear hustled away at a solid pace and left us alone thereafter.

Secondary PSA: Only do this to black bears. Other bears will just maul you, and you will die.
Tertiary PSA: Make sure it is not a Mama bear with cubs, or she will just maul you, and you will die.

I can't remember where I saw it, but the advice for dealing with a polar bear is essentially "make peace with your god and charge. You might get a lucky hit in and kill it before it eats you."

[Peelee]

I'm just trying to be helpful in case you're trying to score some meth.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I absolutely appreciate that.

[Cazero]

The fact that I grew up on Astérix may be part of it too.

I grew up on Astérix as well, and in retrospect, the Gauls are really being jerks to Romans on a regular basis.
For example : "Happy birthday, Obélix ! Here is your present : a camp of fresh legionnaires just coming in from Rome, not blasé yet about being violently and effortlessly defeated every time they try anything, just for you to beat up while we sing !"

Good thing it's a comic running on rule of fun and the romans sent flying fast enough to lose their sandals from it never suffer any permanent injuries. It would really ruin the mood to have our heroes commit tyranical and violent oppression under the pretense of fighting oppressors.

[Peelee]

I can't remember where I saw it, but the advice for dealing with a polar bear is essentially "make peace with your god and charge. You might get a lucky hit in and kill it before it eats you."

This also goes for other polar bears, unless they're in baby-making mode. After baby-making mode, of course, the polar bear is more than happy to kill said babies. Polar bears are weird.

[nmphuong91]

Except that Hel clearly valued souls far more than worship when the new world was being constructed. Which would suggest that most of her power came from souls.

She never said anything like that. She didn't value soul more than worship, she was just persuaded by Loki to focus on soul because she thought that "dishonor dead dwarves" are easy to get, which only suggest that the old world dwarves are not as honorable as new world's dwarves.
An analogy to the real world would be, you are persuaded by a friend to drop your job as an engineer to become a silk merchant only meant that you saw an opportunity in silk trading business (which might suggest that the silk market is booming). To say that most of your income came from selling silk before you drop your job is baseless as a theory or a conclusion though.

[Hekko]

Except that Hel clearly valued souls far more than worship when the new world was being constructed. Which would suggest that most of her power came from souls.

She even says in reply to Loki's question that souls are more important because they give the god the power, while clerics use it.

Clerics are useful as those who recruit more believers (= more souls in the long term). So usually the god uses part of the power they get from their souls to enhance their clerics, who increase the number of worshippers, and ideally is at a net gain. Hel is now weaker because she agreed not to have clerics AND because dwarves shaped their society around an honourable death, so instead of getting all the dwarven souls as she had expected, she gets scraps (and can't recruit more).

[Resileaf]

This also goes for other polar bears, unless they're in baby-making mode. After baby-making mode, of course, the polar bear is more than happy to kill said babies. Polar bears are weird.

This is probably an appropriate place to say "Damn, nature! You scary!"

[The_Weirdo]

I grew up on Astérix as well, and in retrospect, the Gauls are really being jerks to Romans on a regular basis.
For example : "Happy birthday, Obélix ! Here is your present : a camp of fresh legionnaires just coming in from Rome, not blasé yet about being violently and effortlessly defeated every time they try anything, just for you to beat up while we sing !"

Good thing it's a comic running on rule of fun and the romans sent flying fast enough to lose their sandals from it never suffer any permanent injuries. It would really ruin the mood to have our heroes commit tyranical and violent oppression under the pretense of fighting oppressors.

If they didn't want to be beaten up, why did they invade a land that's not theirs? It's not oppression to react, y'know.

[Particle_Man]

PSA:
Depending on the bear, that is actually potentially the correct course of action. When I went camping in the Rockies, they told us that if a bear came into our campsite that we were supposed to run straight at it yelling at the top of our lungs and waving our arms in the air.
The area only had black bears, which are generally a little skittish, and they don't want to deal with a human who has gone totally nuts, because the meal isn't worth that to them. You yell in order to scare them more, and you wave your arms in the air to make yourself look bigger.

There is even a documented case of an unusually agressive/territorial cat that treed a black bear.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/12/3c...663ec02623.jpg

Another dangerous animal is the hippo; perhaps this is because humans keep underestimating how aggressive and territorial they are, how fast they can be and how long they will keep running after you to kill you.

[Fish]

If they didn't want to be beaten up, why did they invade a land that's not theirs? It's not oppression to react, y'know.

So an individual Roman soldier, who has no control over where he is deployed, deserves to be killed because some faraway patrician made the decision to invade? Or do you expect that individual Roman soldier to overturn his entire government and murder every patrician because he's being oppressed?

[Cazero]

If they didn't want to be beaten up, why did they invade a land that's not theirs? It's not oppression to react, y'know.

I'm not saying the Romans are in the right. I'm saying the Gauls don't have to be jerks about it.
You don't get to be a better person by only using violence as a reactive force, you get to be a better person by only using violence as necessary, because violence is always wrong and thus can only be justified when the alternative is worse.
If you don't find brutal violence funny unless the victim "had it coming", you're still showing psychopathic tendencies. If you actualy care about not being an horrible human being, the right thing to do is acknowledge that the Road Runner cartoon is Not Meant To Ever Be Done In Real Life and push for peaceful resolution whenever possible.

[The_Weirdo]

So an individual Roman soldier, who has no control over where he is deployed, deserves to be killed because some faraway patrician made the decision to invade? Or do you expect that individual Roman soldier to overturn his entire government and murder every patrician because he's being oppressed?

And this is the problem of the Gauls because...?

I'm not saying the Romans are in the right. I'm saying the Gauls don't have to be jerks about it.
You don't get to be a better person by only using violence as a reactive force, you get to be a better person by only using violence as necessary, because violence is always wrong and thus can only be justified when the alternative is worse.
If you don't find brutal violence funny unless the victim "had it coming", you're still showing psychopathic tendencies. If you actualy care about not being an horrible human being, the right thing to do is acknowledge that the Road Runner cartoon is Not Meant To Ever Be Done In Real Life and push for peaceful resolution whenever possible.

I don't want to be a better person. I want to be free and equal, the first of which requires absence of oppression and the second of which requires that oppressors are punished. All other concerns are secondary, if that.

[Resileaf]

I'm not saying the Romans are in the right. I'm saying the Gauls don't have to be jerks about it.
You don't get to be a better person by only using violence as a reactive force, you get to be a better person by only using violence as necessary, because violence is always wrong and thus can only be justified when the alternative is worse.
If you don't find brutal violence funny unless the victim "had it coming", you're still showing psychopathic tendencies. If you actualy care about not being an horrible human being, the right thing to do is acknowledge that the Road Runner cartoon is Not Meant To Ever Be Done In Real Life and push for peaceful resolution whenever possible.

Let's be fair now, Astérix' magic potion works with the expectation that only defensive force will be usable. The Gauls can only use the super strength to defend themselves, not go on a Gaul-wide rampage against the Roman invaders.

[Peelee]

I don't want to be a better person.

Oh, I don't think that was ever in doubt.

[The_Weirdo]

Let's be fair now, Astérix' magic potion works with the expectation that only defensive force will be usable. The Gauls can only use the super strength to defend themselves, not go on a Gaul-wide rampage against the Roman invaders.

More or less. It's a weapon and has absolutely no restrictions being used aggressively (to wit, Asterix in Belgium attacking Roman camps in a dispute with the Belgians to see who destroyed more of them). Likewise, there are MANY druids. If Getafix had a mind to divulge the secret of the magic potion to other druids and the villahes/druidic areas/etc. had a mind to actually retaliate against Rome in that universe, Rome would fall within the year.

[Ruck]

And this is the problem of the Gauls because...?



I don't want to be a better person. I want to be free and equal, the first of which requires absence of oppression and the second of which requires that oppressors are punished. All other concerns are secondary, if that.

As always, the problems with your formulation are that 1)you preach individual rights but group responsibilities, with a nebulous definition of "group" such that it seems to change in the moment to suit your immediate purpose; and 2)that you believe in your absolute right to retribution regardless of stakes or proportion.

Your calculus says "If someone somehow lowers my freedom by 0.1%, I am justified in not only declaring that person a member of some larger group defined by my own parameters, but also then murdering everyone in that group."

[The_Weirdo]

As always, the problems with your formulation are that 1)you preach individual rights but group responsibilities, with a nebulous definition of "group" such that it seems to change in the moment to suit your immediate purpose; and 2)that you believe in your absolute right to retribution regardless of stakes or proportion.

Your calculus says "If someone somehow lowers my freedom by 0.1%, I am justified in not only declaring that person a member of some larger group defined by my own parameters, but also then murdering everyone in that group."

You do, of course, realize that the legionary is very much a part of an organized, larger group, yes? And that absolutely no one in a war, especially if you're the invaded party, is morally expected to go "oh, he may well be under orders, his situation is hard too, etc., so let's cut him some slack and let his country invade", right?]

The victims don't have to care, because the oppressors sure as heck do not.

[factotum]

Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they? Ah well, it was a nice thread while it lasted.

[Cazero]

I don't want to be a better person. I want to be free and equal, the first of which requires absence of oppression and the second of which requires that oppressors are punished. All other concerns are secondary, if that.

Then it should come to no surprise to you that the result of your idea is an endless cycle of oppression and violence.
Meanwhile, people who actualy care about other people are trying to put a stop to that cycle by being better persons and try to de-escalate conflicts by not pursuing pointless revenge. Oppressors need to be removed from their position of power, by force and for life if necessary, and I'll even concede that doing so with expediency is preferable. However, punishing them beyond that is utterly pointless (and even counterproductive as it breeds more retaliation) and your insistance on that point really, really worries me about your sanity.

Let's be fair now, Astérix' magic potion works with the expectation that only defensive force will be usable. The Gauls can only use the super strength to defend themselves, not go on a Gaul-wide rampage against the Roman invaders.

Well, duh. It's even a regular plot point that the druid mustn't share the recipe else it would fall into the wrong hands, or that the reserves are running short.

[Ruck]

You do, of course, realize that the legionary is very much a part of an organized, larger group, yes? And that absolutely no one in a war, especially if you're the invaded party, is morally expected to go "oh, he may well be under orders, his situation is hard too, etc., so let's cut him some slack and let his country invade", right?]

The victims don't have to care, because the oppressors sure as heck do not.

I would if your attitude was limited solely to situations regarding an invading/occupying army, but it's not, as you've demonstrated repeatedly.

[The_Weirdo]

Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?

May I sig this?

Edit: Just did. If you don't want me to, I'll respect your wishes and change it.

[SkinTaker]

So an individual Roman soldier, who has no control over where he is deployed, deserves to be killed because some faraway patrician made the decision to invade? Or do you expect that individual Roman soldier to overturn his entire government and murder every patrician because he's being oppressed?

1) See every war ever, Nuremberg trials, etc. People have a right to defend their home from invaders and individuals are responsible for their own actions; "Just following orders" isn't a valid excuse.

2)Deserve's got nuthin' to do with it.

[HalfTangible]

I'd also take this as further proof that Hel isn't a good deity to worship, even if you happen to be a tyrannical warlord who regularly brings death and destruction on your people. Hel clearly values her worshippers more when they are dead than they are alive (fitting for a death goddess, in hindsight), which has some... interesting implications about the kinds of thing she'll ask her followers to do.

To be fair, her logic was less about the dead/alive bit and more that the living take her power while the dead give it to her.

She never said anything like that.

"[Souls or Clerics?]"
"Souls, obviously. They give you power while clerics use it."

[Ironsmith]

To be fair, her logic was less about the dead/alive bit and more that the living take her power while the dead give it to her.

Well, yes, but regardless of the why of it, she still holds more value in dead followers than living ones. This does not bode well for any follower of Hel's that isn't already undead... (and if they're just dead, it's a bit too late to do anything about it.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

So an individual Roman soldier, who has no control over where he is deployed, deserves to be killed because some faraway patrician made the decision to invade? Or do you expect that individual Roman soldier to overturn his entire government and murder every patrician because he's being oppressed?

That largely is TW's MO. Using a reductio ad absurdem, their point becomes 'this person is breathing my air, so I must kill their entire family' level nonsense.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, yes, but regardless of the why of it, she still holds more value in dead followers than living ones. This does not bode well for any follower of Hel's that isn't already undead... (and if they're just dead, it's a bit too late to do anything about it.)

I mean, pretty sure if Hel made a habit of ordering her followers to all kill themselves in the old world she wouldn't have had that many anyway. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're jumping to the wrong kind of conclusion there.

[zimmerwald1915]

So an individual Roman soldier, who has no control over where he is deployed, deserves to be killed because some faraway patrician made the decision to invade? Or do you expect that individual Roman soldier to overturn his entire government and murder every patrician because he's being oppressed?

"Our bullets are for our own generals" isn't just a slogan

[Ironsmith]

I mean, pretty sure if Hel made a habit of ordering her followers to all kill themselves in the old world she wouldn't have had that many anyway. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're jumping to the wrong kind of conclusion there.

Eh, what I'm thinking is less "obligatory suicide" and more "few/no boons and Helheim as afterlife". Even if you were only self-interested, that would not be appealing.