Is a caster level worth two feats?

[bbugg]

Here's the deal, I'm currently a level 3 CN dwarven cleric of Hanseath. Stats are:
13,12,19,12,18,9.
He's a gruff, bar fighter type who rushes headlong into things. He's also an avid brewer - he has a donkey and cart that carries his brewing equipment. For my first level feat I took martial weapon proficiency in the Dwarven War Axe, just because I wanted a big axe. Not optimised, but that's ok, neither is the rest of the party.

My DM is now graciously allowing us to switch up our selection of levels a little, in case we don't like the way we're going (at least partly because of the monk/sorcerer in the group who was less than useful, to say the least.)

I'm considering switching my first level to fighter - it fits with the whole Hanseath thing and his personality and would free up TWO feats (one for the wasted martial weapon prof. and the bonus fighter feat.) What do you think? Is a caster level worth two feats?

Next question - is there any way I can use my excellent Wis or Con modifier to help my attack or damage bonus? I don't want serious cheese here - the first rule in our group is that it must make sense.

[bbugg]

My real problem here is that I'm lacking direction in Torrad's progression... I'm not entirely sure who he is. Sure, he's a gruff, drunken, fighter-y type, but how does that all fit? Where should he head with feats, skills (so far mostly craft: brewing and intimidate) and classes (base and prestige)?

Any suggestions???

[Hario]

Usually not, but it depends what level you are, there are quite a few of PrC's that Cleric's can get into fairly easily and get martial weapon procifiency and not lose caster levels. I'd probably switch you dex with your charisma and put on full plate non-the-less sure you lose a point of touch ac but 11 touch and 10 touch will almost always be touched, and having a 13 charisma allows you to turn or rebuke undead which can be useful, especially if you want to take divine metamagic which those 2 feats can net you (extend spell then divine metamagic) which can get you to extend spells for free using 2 turn undead charges, or if you want to be cheesy get persistant spell and persist divine favor, righteous might, or divine favor (if you get night sticks which are in libris mortus)

[Saph]

Typically the answer is no, at low levels anyway. At high levels the answer becomes "maybe" because feats become more and more powerful, and in shorter and shorter supply. But if you just want to be able to fight well, you're probably better off with the caster level.

So the answer's still no, unless there are any feats you really really need.

As for adding Wis/Con to attack or damage, I can't think of any accessible, non-cheesy way. Book of Exalted Deeds has a feat that lets you substitute your Wis bonus for attacks (I think) but most people don't allow BoED in their games.

There are various obscure builds that let you use Wis/Con as melee stats, but they generally need several splatbooks and require you to build your entire character around it.

- Saph

[Iku Rex]

If you're allowed to switch things around, why not get the War domain? You get your big axe (favored weapon: greataxe), Weapon Focus, and you can choose another feat instead of EWP.

[Hario]

saph the feat in the BoED is with simple weapons only, not martial or exotic. Though if you wanted to use a bow there is a feat that allows you to subsitute your wisdom mod for dex for ranged attacks, including ranged touch attacks.

[bbugg]

Yeah Saph - that's what I had thought about the Wis/Con bonus, which is fine. If there was an easy way that made sense, I'd do it, but I don't want to get into cheese.

I'm not allowed to switch things up too much - changing domains is most likely out, and switching the stats is definitely a no go.

For domains, I have travel and strength.

[Shishnarfne]

If you have travel and strength domains, with a big axe, I don't think you'll have any problem doing well in melee. Frankly, at this point the caster level and +2 Will(as has been said before) is more important than the 2hp, 2 feats, and +1 BAB.

For instance, at level 3 cleric, you gain access to Cure Moderate Wounds (nearly doubling your maximum healing in one round) as one of a host of valuable spells.
Not much is worth giving up caster levels, especially this early.

[bbugg]

Alright, thanks, that makes sense.

That all said, what feat(s) should I take? Power Attack (eventually cleave etc.) or Charge feats? Shield feats? Metamagic? Earthsense?

I hate decisions.

[Hario]

Power attack is ok, at low levels you're probably not going to use it, especially with your low strength. I'd get extend spell, which will help with your buffs. Cleave is probably not worth it. There is also a feat in complete mage that if you have a healing spell you can have infinite healing all day long (takes a while though) but it save you from buying a CLW wand.

[Rad]

Power attack is good, but later on; moreover you have a lower AB than a fighter, meaning that you have much less points "to spare" to be converted in damage unless you fix that with buff spells. PA gets good if you use a 2-handed weapon (is your deity's favorite weapon a greataxe?) and with Leap Attack (C.Adv.) and Shock Trooper (C.War.). Shock trooper has Improved Bullrush as a prereq. though, so it gets expensive.
War domain, if normally available through your deity, is not usually a "major" change in characters (switching deity is); if you wanted to be a martial cleric it is worth taking however.
As far as PrC go, the golden rule for full spellcasters is "thou shall not lose caster levels". Not until level 18 and 9th level spells in your pocket.

[Alyorbase]

Now I know this may not be a great PrC but it kinda sounds like to me you are wanting to build something equivalent to a Warpriest, which I believe is in the Complete Divine (if I'm not mistaken). It's not what I would call a GREAT prestige class as far as being optimized goes, (but you said your party wasn't really optimized anyway) but it is a fun little melee build to try out. Other than that, I would suggest that 2 feats is not worth losing a caster level for, at least not at low levels. Hope this helps with your decision

[Telonius]

Remember that you can only use Fighter Feats for your bonus feats from that level of Fighter. Formation Expert from Complete Warrior is a tactical feat that is also a Fighter bonus feat. The "Step into the Breach" tactic is one that could be of great interest to a Cleric. Unfortunately you don't qualify for it yet, as it requires +5 BAB. Phalanx Fighting, also in Complete Warrior, could be good too; except that the whole point of the Fighter level is to let you use a Dwarven Waraxe better, and the Waraxe is a one-handed weapon. Another good Fighter option is Improved Toughness from CWar. I'm not sure if it's worth a spellcasting level this early, but it's the best I could find.

If you really want to pick up a level in fighter, here's what I would suggest, if the DM allows it. Clr1, Clr1/Ftr1, Clr2/Ftr1. Cleric (or whatever PrC) the rest of the way out. It's important that you keep that first level a Cleric level, since otherwise you'll have to spend double skill points to max out the Cleric-y skills at first level.

Feat progression:
1 - Skill Focus (Concentration).
2 - Power Attack.
3 - Extend Spell.

This will get you weapon proficiency with the Dwarven Waraxe (remember that as a Dwarf you treat it as a Martial weapon), and Power Attack to put the hurt on the enemy when you use your Divine Power cheese. You'll be using Skill Focus Concentration quite a bit, since (as a Cleric) you'll be making a whole bunch of Concentration checks. Extend spell is also an essential one for Clerics; it keeps buff spells active for the whole day, by the time you reach upper levels.

[Thinker]

I would suggest, if you can, to swap your strength and con so that you have a 17 (which can be raised to 18 at level 4) and a +3 bonus, versus the +1 now. The HP is nice, but you're only losing 2HP per level, versus a gain of 2 to hit and 3 damage per attack.

I would recommend against going with fighter for the same reasons others have mentioned. War Priest is alright if no one is optimized, but ones that progress your spellcasting will definitely be stronger.

[Rad]

Hospitalier (also C. Divine) would be better w/ regard to caster level. It requires feats but lets you pick 3 bonus feats later (and those can be better since you'll meet more requirements). The skill rank requirements are tough for your 3SP per level though.

[Telonius]

Okay, for skills. The most important ones that you'll need as a Cleric are:

Concentration. Get this up to a +14 bonus ASAP, then stop putting ranks into it.

Knowledge (Religion). Because, well, you're a Cleric. And 5 ranks in it give you +2 on your Turn Undead checks.

Tumble. I know it's cross-class, but put at least a couple of ranks in here. Getting up to a fallen comrade without drawing attacks of opportunity is important, and you can't use it untrained. If you have the skill points for it, bump this up to +14.

Heal. Not necessary if you have a Ranger or Paladin acting as a first-aid kit, but you probably don't have one. Bump this up until you can get a +14 bonus before the roll.

Others: Any prerequisites for PrCs. Fluffy stuff like craft (brewer).

[goat]

This is one of those situations when I get irritated by the fact that only monks can become Drunken Masters.

[bbugg]

I'm with you on that one Goat!

Thanks for the advice everyone!

[Hario]

Okay, for skills. The most important ones that you'll need as a Cleric are:

Concentration. Get this up to a +14 bonus ASAP, then stop putting ranks into it.

Knowledge (Religion). Because, well, you're a Cleric. And 5 ranks in it give you +2 on your Turn Undead checks.

Tumble. I know it's cross-class, but put at least a couple of ranks in here. Getting up to a fallen comrade without drawing attacks of opportunity is important, and you can't use it untrained. If you have the skill points for it, bump this up to +14.

Heal. Not necessary if you have a Ranger or Paladin acting as a first-aid kit, but you probably don't have one. Bump this up until you can get a +14 bonus before the roll.

Others: Any prerequisites for PrCs. Fluffy stuff like craft (brewer).

There is no real need for him to need to turn undead, he had a 9 charisma, he ain't gonna turn anything, well maybe japanese (ahh! clericzilla!), but that's it.

[Person_Man]

If you want to be a front line Cleric, change your stats to:

Str: 18
Dex: 12
Con: 19
Int: 12
Wis: 13
Cha: 9

You only need a Wis of 10 + spell level to cast a spell. So Wis 13 is plenty at your level. At every 4th level, put the stat increase into Wis. And when you have the cash, buy a few items to increase it up to whatever you need. As a Cleric, you never need to cast a spell that has an opposed Saving Throw. You can just buff yourself and/or summon things and beat the tar out of your enemies.

For Domains, use Travel and War. The War domain gives you free martial weapon proficiency and focus in the deity's favored weapon, which is the Greataxe for Hanseath. So now you have the big axe that you want. Travel gives you some amazing spells, such as Longstrider, Locate Object, Fly, Dimension Door, etc.

As for build, I say stay simple. Cleric X/PrC Y. Any PrC that gives you full caster progression will be fine.

For feats, just focus on improving your spell use. Gold Dwarf Dweomersmith (Races of Faerun), Extend Spell, Holy Warrior (Complete Champion), Travel Devotion (Complete Champion), and maybe Domain Spontaneity (Complete Divine).

[Thinker]

Okay, for skills. The most important ones that you'll need as a Cleric are:

Concentration. Get this up to a +14 bonus ASAP, then stop putting ranks into it.

Concentration is important for casting in combat.

Knowledge (Religion). Because, well, you're a Cleric. And 5 ranks in it give you +2 on your Turn Undead checks.

If he is trying to fill out skills for a PrC he can sacrifice ranks in this. Its useful for identifying critters, but not essential.

Tumble. I know it's cross-class, but put at least a couple of ranks in here. Getting up to a fallen comrade without drawing attacks of opportunity is important, and you can't use it untrained. If you have the skill points for it, bump this up to +14.

Getting to a fallen comrade is unimportant. He's down, he's likely out of the fight until the fight is over. Even if you can heal him, its not going to be very useful if the next hit kills him instead of the disabled he had been.

Heal. Not necessary if you have a Ranger or Paladin acting as a first-aid kit, but you probably don't have one. Bump this up until you can get a +14 bonus before the roll.

Not necessary, except in the most extreme of circumstances (to stablize someone and there are no spells left). Even without ranks you will have around a 50% chance of success.

Others: Any prerequisites for PrCs. Fluffy stuff like craft (brewer).

imo prerequisites for PrCs is more important than everything, except Concentration.

[Telok]

Combat Expertise: If you get 13 Int at level 4 and level of fighter for a feat to play with this is a nice one. Eventually you may well end up swinging a mace around for the AC buff. The bonus lasts all round and can be combined with defensive fighting to skyrocket your AC. Once in a while you might even hit something.

Improved Trip: If you have the first feat consider getting this one. The main use is against humanoid opponents but you may occasionally throw down others (horse and rider!) as well. People like this one, especially if you use a reach weapon from behind the fighter with it. Because it uses a touch attack it combines well with Combat Expertise.

Tripping is situational, but useful if you face lots of humanoids. You'll do well in it between being a dwarf and your domain. Giving up one caster level is ouchie, and many people will boo me for saying this but... You can easily get away with giving up one caster level in a optimization-not-required game. There may be a prestige class out there somewhere that would get you the same result, so check around first and decide if you want to be a fight+smash cleric, a caster cleric, or a tank-the-marilith cleric.

Some of us think that there is no such thing as too much AC on the cleric.

[Telonius]

Concentration is important for casting in combat...

Whoops, forgot about the spell level requirement. Make that, "raise it to +23." That will give you automatic success on all spells cast defensively. Good Con bonus, plus skill focus, should help him out there.

I would say that Knowledge Religion is usually an essential skill. Otherwise your character will not know (for example) that the holy symbol belongs to a cleric of Boccob, that skeletons are immune to cold, that vampires can Dominate people, or some of the weird abilities of a Devourer. It is situational, though; if you never encounter any undead, it won't be as useful.

The Heal skill's big virtue is that it can double a character's natural healing. This means a couple of extra spells each day spent on smiting your foes, rather than healing your allies.

I think I just disagree with you about Tumble; getting over to stabilize a fallen comrade is usually essential. I'd rather spend two skill points to have a chance to get over to somebody without drawing AoO's, than be assured of spending 5,000 or 25,000 gp resurrecting him.

[tyckspoon]

Also, if he's a typical heavy-armor wearing, lower Dex-type fighting Cleric.. his base Tumble check is going to be something like -8. Armor check penalties do matter. On the plus side, as a Dwarf Cleric he's probably also got the HP and AC to absorb any AoO's he draws.

[Dairun Cates]

Jesus. A cleric with 19 con? That's just mean spirited for the GM. Anyway, I'd say the choice is up to you, but in all honesty, I'd say to stick with cleric. If you really want that Axe though, then go for it. It's not the WORST thing ever to lose a caster level, and you can spend those lovely feats on things like the Divine feats.

[AslanCross]

Doesn't the dwarf automatically get the weapon proficiency for the Dwarven waraxe anyway?

[tyckspoon]

Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.

No, unfortunately. Familiarity means Fighters and other martial classes can use it without wasting another feat on Exotic Proficiency.

[AslanCross]

Oh, I get it now. I thought that it was automatic.