D&D Beyond Changes

[Sigreid]

Same, and from the sounds of it they want my friends who only use the site once a week at most to be paying the same cost rather than allowing a campaign share as it exists now.

If I'm not going to pay that cost, there's no way you're getting them on board for that cost either.

Decent chance they know this is not going to fly and leaked it to make what they actually do seem like a bargain by comparison.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Decent chance they know this is not going to fly and leaked it to make what they actually do seem like a bargain by comparison.

Considering recent events, nobody is going to fall for that.

[stoutstien]

Decent chance they know this is not going to fly and leaked it to make what they actually do seem like a bargain by comparison.

Eh. If so they are sorely under estimating the the length those who are invested in the hobby are willing to go over a grudge.

[Sigreid]

Eh. If so they are sorely under estimating the the length those who are invested in the hobby are willing to go over a grudge.

Stubborn and petty are common human traits. Hehe

[da newt]

Oremac - I think you are referring to the Alta Fox Capital Management presentation / paper ('free the wizards') from ~ FEB 22 that proposed WotC spin off from the parent company.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Honestly. They're pulling Nintendo in the 1990's with a kind of "We're king of the world and *^(%&^& you!"

They will likely survive, but they'll allow Paizo to flourish even more and with all the other TP companies kind of rallying with them it probably won't eclipse D&D, what with the Marketing, Movies, Critical Role, etc, but it will compete with.

It's kind of funny, WotC/D&D essentially gave birth to Paizo, then ignored them, now will have them as a chief competitor. Just like Nintendo hiring Sony to create the SNES CD then abandoned Sony and out came the Playstation.

[Sception]

i use dndbeyond right now. i like a good online character builder & sheet, & beyond is easily the best out there, by enough that i haven't minded paying the microtransactions to unlock specific content on it. but i'm not paying a subscription fee, & if they ruin the non-subbed experience to force subscriptions i can and will switch to fillable pdfs or just go back to notebooks & paper sheets.

[EggKookoo]

I don't think it matters. Personal use is typically fair use. Money has to be changing hands to claim financial damages if I understand correctly.

Right. Just for safety's sake, I grabbed my own copy so I won't have to rely on external sources for it.

[Segev]

MMOs can get away with this kind of monthly subscription fee - maybe - because they are an exclusive portal to playing their product. Their competition is also charging at least half that, typically, or has some really obnoxious monetization features that make the freemium competition less attractive.

What is it that WotC is planning to provide for $30/month that they think will keep people engaged with it and coughing up that money, when their customers can just keep playing 5.0, can go play PF2, can go play PF1 or 3.5 or even 4e, or can use their physical OneD&D books to play on their own? Are they not planning on selling physical books? Are they somehow planning to storm into people's houses to give them C&Ds if they're playing a tabletop RPG without a D&D Beyond license that's up to date?

This just seems very short-sighted, like it's making the assumption that every subscriber will just keep subscribing, but at the higher price point. Which even the most divorced-from-the-business bean counter should know from economics 101 is untrue based on basic supply/demand curves.

[Sigreid]

MMOs can get away with this kind of monthly subscription fee - maybe - because they are an exclusive portal to playing their product. Their competition is also charging at least half that, typically, or has some really obnoxious monetization features that make the freemium competition less attractive.

What is it that WotC is planning to provide for $30/month that they think will keep people engaged with it and coughing up that money, when their customers can just keep playing 5.0, can go play PF2, can go play PF1 or 3.5 or even 4e, or can use their physical OneD&D books to play on their own? Are they not planning on selling physical books? Are they somehow planning to storm into people's houses to give them C&Ds if they're playing a tabletop RPG without a D&D Beyond license that's up to date?

This just seems very short-sighted, like it's making the assumption that every subscriber will just keep subscribing, but at the higher price point. Which even the most divorced-from-the-business bean counter should know from economics 101 is untrue based on basic supply/demand curves.

Well, the new execs have come from MS, which has for a while been trying to get people to stop buying software and rent it instead claiming that in exchange they get constant updates to the latest and greatest.

[Oramac]

Oremac - I think you are referring to the Alta Fox Capital Management presentation / paper ('free the wizards') from ~ FEB 22 that proposed WotC spin off from the parent company.

Probably, yes. There's a twitter thread going with a lot more detail about it, but the short version is Hasbro is fighting tooth and nail to keep WOTC in house.

[Sparky McDibben]

What is it that WotC is planning to provide for $30/month that they think will keep people engaged with it and coughing up that money, when their customers can just keep playing 5.0, can go play PF2, can go play PF1 or 3.5 or even 4e, or can use their physical OneD&D books to play on their own? Are they not planning on selling physical books? Are they somehow planning to storm into people's houses to give them C&Ds if they're playing a tabletop RPG without a D&D Beyond license that's up to date?

I suspect they think DDB + sunk cost fallacy is sticky enough to keep people invested. Even so, they almost don't seem to understand the game? Or the players? Some of these moves remind me of what happens when you put an MBA grad in charge of a hardware store. They don't understand the core value prop and just spouting buzzwords: "Undermonetized! Lifestyle brand! BLOOD AND SOULS FOR MY DARK LORD ARIOCH!!" Y'know, the usual.

[Sigreid]

Probably, yes. There's a twitter thread going with a lot more detail about it, but the short version is Hasbro is fighting tooth and nail to keep WOTC in house.

Why would they need to fight? I don't think they can be forced to sell can they?

[Oramac]

can use their physical OneD&D books to play on their own? Are they not planning on selling physical books?

Honestly, it kinda looks that way. It'd the the dumbest business decision ever made, but it does look like they want to go all-digital.

[Atranen]

I don't like the changes, but I'll bet they can get away with them. They don't need every subscriber to do $30/month, and they will likely have lower tiers available. Something like

$5/month gets you everything you get now
$15/month gives you to core books, some other goodies, and access to the VTT
$30/month is the highest tier, and gives you all books, access to multiple VTT instances, experimental access to the AI, whatever else they think the real super users will want.

They'll certainly lose some players, myself included, but frankly I wasn't giving them much money now. And I'll bet the additional revenue from the subscriptions will make up for it.

Sad times ahead. At the least, it should be easier to get a group to try a different system.

[Sparky McDibben]

Why would they need to fight? I don't think they can be forced to sell can they?

Activist investors could potentially force a vote. This is commo to the board and shareholders.

[Unoriginal]

MMOs can get away with this kind of monthly subscription fee - maybe - because they are an exclusive portal to playing their product. Their competition is also charging at least half that, typically, or has some really obnoxious monetization features that make the freemium competition less attractive.

What is it that WotC is planning to provide for $30/month that they think will keep people engaged with it and coughing up that money, when their customers can just keep playing 5.0, can go play PF2, can go play PF1 or 3.5 or even 4e, or can use their physical OneD&D books to play on their own? Are they not planning on selling physical books? Are they somehow planning to storm into people's houses to give them C&Ds if they're playing a tabletop RPG without a D&D Beyond license that's up to date?

This just seems very short-sighted, like it's making the assumption that every subscriber will just keep subscribing, but at the higher price point. Which even the most divorced-from-the-business bean counter should know from economics 101 is untrue based on basic supply/demand curves.

MMOs can also do that kind of business because the game company needs to pay people ongoingly to have the game ongoingly playable.

Here WotC is essentially asking us to pay one pound each day to have... online copies of documents?

[Sigreid]

Activist investors could potentially force a vote. This is commo to the board and shareholders.

I don't see how there could be enough of them unless the board is weak, but whatever I guess.

[jjordan]

What is it that WotC is planning to provide for $30/month that they think will keep people engaged with it and coughing up that money, when their customers can just keep playing 5.0, can go play PF2, can go play PF1 or 3.5 or even 4e, or can use their physical OneD&D books to play on their own?

Early access to content in electronic format before it goes to print. That's the short answer.

The long answer is that WotC has apparently looked at their IP and their business model and probable trends and made some decisions. Your comparison to MMOs is spot on. Picture D&D as a turn-based MMO. Sort of like the old, single-player Final Fantasy but now it's multiple players and each controls only their character in a combat situation. D&D already embraced the video-game model in the basic design of 5e (long and short rest mechanics, adventures as a series of combat encounters strung together by plot and cut scenes, characters as superheroes, etc...) and this is a logical next step.

This capitalizes on online roleplaying growth and the popularity of VTTs and the favorable economics of electronic publishing and puts WotC back in the driver's seat for content development of IP by raising the bar for 3PP to get their content into the environment. It also drags the game into the realm of video games where monetization systems are highly developed. Electronic publishing will lead the way and print publishing will follow (effectively flipping the old model, which they've been doing for the past several years). This will also lead to inhouse development of other avenues of exploitation of the IP: online webcomics, streaming stories, traditional merchandising AND electronic merchandising, and so on.

EDIT TO ADD: People are coming down really hard on WotC for the recent decisions that have been leaked. Which is fine, I hate some of those changes myself. But no one seems to be looking at the changing market and proposing ways for WotC to adapt and move forward. And they *must* adapt and move forward, not just for the health of the company, but for the health of the game.

[Sparky McDibben]

I don't see how there could be enough of them unless the board is weak, but whatever I guess.

Carl Icahn, for example, typically only needs a 1% stake in a company to get a board seat. Once there, you just work the board members and get more seats. It's deceptively simple.

[EggKookoo]

Are they not planning on selling physical books?

I've been saying for some time that this is the endgame. It seems less ridiculous all the time.

[OracleofWuffing]

$30 a month is something you'd expect from a cloud streaming service... Maybe, and that would be delivering you an entire game experience.

I have a gut feeling that any corporate executive that approves a $30/month rate would have no problem with someone comparing D&D Beyond to a streaming service. Sadly.

*Looks at his $40 phone plan and $15 breakfast receipt and feels unintentionally called out.*

[Segev]

Early access to content in electronic format before it goes to print. That's the short answer.

The long answer is that WotC has apparently looked at their IP and their business model and probable trends and made some decisions. Your comparison to MMOs is spot on. Picture D&D as a turn-based MMO. Sort of like the old, single-player Final Fantasy but now it's multiple players and each controls only their character in a combat situation. D&D already embraced the video-game model in the basic design of 5e (long and short rest mechanics, adventures as a series of combat encounters strung together by plot and cut scenes, characters as superheroes, etc...) and this is a logical next step.

This capitalizes on online roleplaying growth and the popularity of VTTs and the favorable economics of electronic publishing and puts WotC back in the driver's seat for content development of IP by raising the bar for 3PP to get their content into the environment. It also drags the game into the realm of video games where monetization systems are highly developed. Electronic publishing will lead the way and print publishing will follow (effectively flipping the old model, which they've been doing for the past several years). This will also lead to inhouse development of other avenues of exploitation of the IP: online webcomics, streaming stories, traditional merchandising AND electronic merchandising, and so on.

EDIT TO ADD: People are coming down really hard on WotC for the recent decisions that have been leaked. Which is fine, I hate some of those changes myself. But no one seems to be looking at the changing market and proposing ways for WotC to adapt and move forward. And they *must* adapt and move forward, not just for the health of the company, but for the health of the game.

Okay, but how are they planning to compel people to pay $30/month to play tabletop D&D? If they're making a full-on D&D MMO, sure, fine, but MMO players and TTRPG players are not a 100% overlap on the Venn diagram of consumers. Are they just casting off actual tabletop gamers who play with dice and minis at their home table? Do they expect those players to cough up $30/month to ... do what they're already doing?

They'll be competing with themselves if they sell OneD&D in physical books; nobody who has the physical books needs a subscription just to access the mechanics. Now, I hear they're trying to do "AI DMs," which may actually be worth a high price point for some, but that's going to be pretty niche, I think. Not because there aren't a lot more players than there are DMs, but because $30/month is really, really expensive; it's high-end for a full-on MMO, and it doesn't sound like that's what they're producing. (I could be wrong, there.)

It does sound a lot like people who don't have a clue what their customers do with their products, nor what their products are, and are making grossly inaccurate assumptions, like trying to charge for tickets to observe fruit on display at a grocery store and then being surprised when people just buy the fruit and eat it without paying the season pass for observing it being arranged.

[Psyren]

Well, the new execs have come from MS, which has for a while been trying to get people to stop buying software and rent it instead claiming that in exchange they get constant updates to the latest and greatest.

GamePass is a great deal though., one of the few subscription services for games to actually see both critical and commercial success. I don't mind paying for a service if the value proposition matches the price tag (I subscribe to this forum even); If DDB's price goes up with the same features it currently has, that won't be worth it, but I'll gladly take an increase if they make it worth my while to do so.

Early access to content in electronic format before it goes to print. That's the short answer.

Early access is definitely something I'd pay a higher sub fee for. It would beat the heck out of those bloated preorder bundles that force me into the dead tree editions and/or include books I already own.

This will also lead to inhouse development of other avenues of exploitation of the IP: online webcomics, streaming stories, traditional merchandising AND electronic merchandising, and so on.

This has a lot of potential to be a good thing. Comics, shows, movies and other expanded media for the settings that WotC unequivocally own are a great way to compensate the lore-minded folks for developing those aspects further. Articles I think should be free however.

EDIT TO ADD: People are coming down really hard on WotC for the recent decisions that have been leaked. Which is fine, I hate some of those changes myself. But no one seems to be looking at the changing market and proposing ways for WotC to adapt and move forward. And they *must* adapt and move forward, not just for the health of the company, but for the health of the game.

Concur. I think the assumption is that they'll just quintuple the price with no change in service offering; however little faith the community might have in them nowadays, they're smarter than that at least.

[Atranen]

EDIT TO ADD: People are coming down really hard on WotC for the recent decisions that have been leaked. Which is fine, I hate some of those changes myself. But no one seems to be looking at the changing market and proposing ways for WotC to adapt and move forward. And they *must* adapt and move forward, not just for the health of the company, but for the health of the game.

My favored response is "if it isn't broken, don't fix it". We know WoTC is the most profitable division of Hasbro and D&D is a big part of that. They don't need any drastic changes at the moment, and they can incrementally invest in VTT etc.

But that has less upside for them.

Okay, but how are they planning to compel people to pay $30/month to play tabletop D&D? If they're making a full-on D&D MMO, sure, fine, but MMO players and TTRPG players are not a 100% overlap on the Venn diagram of consumers. Are they just casting off actual tabletop gamers who play with dice and minis at their home table? Do they expect those players to cough up $30/month to ... do what they're already doing?

I'll bet you'll be able to jump on D&DBeyond and play in a VTT for free, with access to 1 character. Then a higher tier subscription gives you more characters, maybe access to higher levels...a higher tier lets you run games, unlocks all published content...a higher tier lets you get early access to new content, special assets for published adventures, increases the reach of your homebrew in their search function, gives you more assets to make your own things...

Which unfortunately seems like a very workable model to me.

I'll bet they keep making physical books, but I also suspect they'll test the waters with some D&DBeyond exclusive subclasses. If that's successful, after a few years we could see a D&DBeyond exclusive release.

[jjordan]

Okay, but how are they planning to compel people to pay $30/month to play tabletop D&D? If they're making a full-on D&D MMO, sure, fine, but MMO players and TTRPG players are not a 100% overlap on the Venn diagram of consumers. Are they just casting off actual tabletop gamers who play with dice and minis at their home table? Do they expect those players to cough up $30/month to ... do what they're already doing?

I'm guessing here, but I think they've concluded that the hardcopy tabletop publishing model has peaked. There's only so many copies of the hardcovers they can sell and the cost of selling hardcopies is increasing so profit margins are decreasing. The old customer base will continue to get hardcopies, at least for a few years, just after the electronic publishing (not before or simultaneously).

They'll be competing with themselves if they sell OneD&D in physical books; nobody who has the physical books needs a subscription just to access the mechanics. Now, I hear they're trying to do "AI DMs," which may actually be worth a high price point for some, but that's going to be pretty niche, I think. Not because there aren't a lot more players than there are DMs, but because $30/month is really, really expensive; it's high-end for a full-on MMO, and it doesn't sound like that's what they're producing. (I could be wrong, there.)

Guessing, again, but I think they have concluded that, in addition to e-publishing, online gaming is where the potential for growth lays. AI DMs is a good indicator that one of their poll takeaways is that more people would play if they could get a schedule that works for them. And AI DMs are going to appeal heavily to solo or very small group players and they are going to be using published content. Vastly oversimplifying, it's a group play of a turn-based video game. Which, again, puts WotC in the driver's seat for IP because how is a third-party publisher going to get their cool scenario into the VTT for the AI DMs to offer to players? It's not competing with themselves, it's growing the market.

It does sound a lot like people who don't have a clue what their customers do with their products, nor what their products are, and are making grossly inaccurate assumptions, like trying to charge for tickets to observe fruit on display at a grocery store rather than letting people buy the fruit and take it home to eat it.

I'm going to disagree, here. I think they understand what their customers do with their products. But, as I said, I think they've concluded that the existing customer based is peaked and facing diminishing profit margins while there is a high-profit margin customer based that is underserved. I think they believe they can continue to serve the existing customer base (while moving a lot of them into the new customer base) while drastically expanding the new customer base. And they kind of have to do this or someone else will. Which makes the current uproar amusing to me because it's largely about the old model and not the new model.

[Sigreid]

I think one of the things they may be overlooking is that a lot of their customer base doesn't have a lot of money and part of the appeal of ttrpgs is that long term, it's a very cheap hobby.

[KorvinStarmast]

The good news is that I might get my players to stop using DDB. We ain't needed no d*mn app for the last 50 years of this d*mn game, DAN.

Well, 49, but I see your point.

A article I read that some of the same info seemed to suggest it came from very close to the top

If the brand is indeed under-monetized, as some suit reportedly said, then any shareholder will ask "so, how will you better monetize this brand?" and be justified in so asking.

Ironic considering the simplicity of the current ruleset. Its not like its arcane knowledge what you add to a d20 roll or that most of your special abilities come back on one of two varieties of rest. Its almost the easiest system to computerize so far, its just they havent bothered to.

I am pretty sure that they are working on that.

Unless that $30 comes with access to all official content, I don't see this happening.
$30 a month is something you'd expect from a cloud streaming service... Maybe, and that would be delivering you an entire game experience.

In comparison, I pay $99 per year for roll20 top level sub. But I buy the content through r20 separately on an 'as desired' basis. When Blizzard's WoW came out, that game was $15 per month. Not sure what it costs now.

After all, when you hit a rough patch if something is $5 but good value it might survive a budget. But $30? That's multiple meals or a phone plan etc.

Yep.

I see others take glee in the self destruction of the evil corporation, but I see my hobby being flushed down the drain to satisfy a greedy jerk.

It is sad to see.

Stubborn and petty are common human traits. Hehe

I am pretty sure that I have proficiency in Stubborn.

Some of these moves remind me of what happens when you put an MBA grad in charge of a hardware store. They don't understand the core value prop and just spouting buzzwords: "Undermonetized! Lifestyle brand! BLOOD AND SOULS FOR MY DARK LORD ARIOCH!!" Y'know, the usual.

And in the end, they fall onto Stormbringer and their souls are eaten ...

Activist investors could potentially force a vote.

True.

Early access to content in electronic format before it goes to print. That's the short answer.

That whole post is a nice, tasty cheeseburger with bacon, mushrooms, and swiss cheese. +10.

[Segev]

GamePass is a great deal though., one of the few subscription services for games to actually see both critical and commercial success. I don't mind paying for a service if the value proposition matches the price tag (I subscribe to this forum even); If DDB's price goes up with the same features it currently has, that won't be worth it, but I'll gladly take an increase if they make it worth my while to do so.

What would make it worth your while to do so? I can't think of anything, for me, though I am not above being proven wrong. I do not, personally, use D&D Beyond except through a free account when a DM insists on having stat pages there. I don't see the need nor use of it now.

However, I have spent hundreds of dollars on books, and not a small amount on minis. I am absolutely a customer WotC might consider, if not a "whale," then at least a dolphin. I'm totally in for buying merch if it looks cool and/or tickles my funnybone, too. D&D pun-related shirts would be a way to grab me.

I play D&D both online and in person. Online, I use discord for chat-based games as well as audio-call games. I use roll20, even pay for some upgraded levels of service, as a VTT, and have bought modules I already own the physical copy of for the pre-made maps in them. I don't like buying them twice, but I have done so.

I don't expect WotC to successfully make a VTT that is good enough to justify a $30/month subscription. Maybe they will, but I sincerely doubt it. Certainly not if every player in a game needs the subscription, though I can be generous and allow that maybe WotC isn't so foolish as to expect that. (Sadly, I would be unsurprised, given their other business decisions lately, if that's exactly what they expect.)

But my existing hardcopy books, minis, my friends' game mats and minis, and even my ability to play with a free-to-use VTT that I just hand-sketch combat maps on if needs be is competing with that $30/month subscription service. I wouldn't pay $30/month for what I've paid for and gotten on roll20. I don't expect D&D Beyond to be able ot improve on it in any way that would change my mind. Even if I had more faith in their VTT design team, I can't imagine what would make it worth that much.

It just seems to me like there's a fundamental expectation that, somehow, D&D Beyond will be able to gatekeep the ability to play any D&D at all. I am unsure how they expect that to work.

Concur. I think the assumption is that they'll just quintuple the price with no change in service offering; however little faith the community might have in them nowadays, they're smarter than that at least.

I have put forth in one of these threads ideas on how I'd try to monetize it. It would lean into the same model they use for Friday Night Magic, amongst other things.

And lots and lots of non-gaming merch. Shirts, especially, but also plushies, backpacks, entire boxed sets of minis and maps and maybe terrain along with the module books for the big kickstarter spenders, modular sales of individual components of the same for people who want just one or two things...

The movie is a great idea if they also use it as a vehicle for merchandizing. Not in the "it's a 90 minute ad" sense, but just in the sense that anything that shows up and gets a lot of buzz from the audience should appear on wearable merchandize, as figures and plushies and dolls, etc. It's not like Hasbro isn't skilled in making action figures!

Making action figures paired with minis scaled for the game would make great parent/child joint packages, or great presents for younger D&D players. "Now you can play with Ragnar in the playset, and at the gaming table!" Include Ragnar's stat page folded up in the blister pack, too. If you're feeling really ambitious, include four-part maps, one part in each of a 4-man party of PCable action figures and their minis, where the map shows an artistic rendering of a way to get to a location and has a play grid with an encounter location on the back when you put all four pieces together. And a QR code that is revealed when all four are put together that opens to a web site with an adventure tailored for the specific four characters that made it up, which a DM can run for the players who run the minis as their characters.

[KorvinStarmast]

The movie is a great idea if they also use it as a vehicle for merchandizing. Not in the "it's a 90 minute ad" sense

Oh, for the days when movies were 90 minutes long. *wistful sigh*

Making action figures paired with minis scaled for the game would make great parent/child joint packages, or great presents for younger D&D players. "Now you can play with Ragnar in the playset, and at the gaming table!" Include Ragnar's stat page folded up in the blister pack, too. If you're feeling really ambitious, include four-part maps, one part in each of a 4-man party of PCable action figures and their minis, where the map shows an artistic rendering of a way to get to a location and has a play grid with an encounter location on the back when you put all four pieces together. And a QR code that is revealed when all four are put together that opens to a web site with an adventure tailored for the specific four characters that made it up, which a DM can run for the players who run the minis as their characters.

Hero Forge figs are nice; Hasbro may press them pretty hard. With 3D printing, there is some opportunity to monetize in a variety of ways, as you pointed out.

Interesting article on the own goal they have scored so far. When the movie comes out that might change.