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2018-09-24, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
So, upcast Hold Person? Magic Missile hitting 2 creatures? What about Magic Missile when targeting only the caster, but since it's 3 different darts,has each to be redirected or is the spell itself that is redirected in toto? And if each has has to be redirected, ending up targeting both a creature and an illusion, what happens? What if i target a creature and something that is not a creature in general, like fireball that targets a point? Fireball and area: what if there is only the caster in the area? Do the duplicates count? Things that do not target creatures, but pieces of worn equipment like Heat Metal? What if targeting is made by something that is not a creature, like a Glyph of Warding? Does falling count as an effect? Does a poisoned blade have different rolls for attack and poison, if the attack still manage to hit the caster?
Hope you appreciate the sillyness of some of these questions.
Rearranged. Also, not a fan of the system. I prefer the single d20 solution of the original. Add a "or duration runs its course" or something as a condition for a spell to end. I know, duration, but it's still repeated in RAW, sometimes, for clarity.
Can duplicates be destroyed in any other way? Like, fireball area? What if someone want-on targets a duplicate?
Again, rearranged. I suppose a blind person and someone guessing the position or simply targeting by hearing is fine then?
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2018-09-24, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
That’s not really the question, though. The target is the caster, not the illusions. The questions as I see it are:
- is there a rule that states you have to point out the target to the magic that causes the spell; so not “I target Bill” but rather you point at Bill and the missiles follow (and therefore if you’re not pointing at Bill, the darts will target whomever you’re pointing at)?
- do the illusion duplicates magically interfere with spells by forcing themselves to be targets when the caster is the actual intended target?
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2018-09-24, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
Aye. Could just say 'spell' though, that's not unprecedented.
Upcast Hold Person, each one redirects (no two holds can be same target), Magic Missile each dart is redirected individually but simultaneously (potentially doubling up on hits), AoE effects don't disrupt images, Heat Metal is 'single target' so subject to redirect, ideally follows the same rules as if a creature did it, falling is not an effect (gravity is an AoE ), the poison of a blade effects the same thing the blade hit (no redirect).
The problem is wording all that in elegantly. Probably why the devs chose the way they did I suppose.
To each their own, I just liked the even chances. Actually a d12 could be used in all cases of 4, 3 and 2 potential targets, d12s are underused.
Aye, though for a lot of spells 'target you can see' is specified.Last edited by Kane0; 2018-09-24 at 06:45 PM.
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2018-09-24, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
The Heat Seeker idea: There seems to be two concepts being expressed under the same name, here.
1. Pick a target and it will strike unerringly.
2. Name a target, and the spell can detect it somehow and then will seek it.
The first seems to be the better use of the term to me, because a heat seeking missile traditionally requires a target lock before it can “seek.” But it also describes the most sensible way of understanding targeted spells (but maybe it is a case-by-case thing, or I am failing to consider some that my intuition thinks of the other way.)
The second just seems outright wrong to me. It adds a detection capability to the spell that is simultaneously a solution in search of a problem and also a problem in itself.
It’s not quite that, though. I am saying that my explanation is perfectly allowable by the RAW. And so is Erys’ explanation. I have never had any problem admitting that Erys’ explanation is within the RAW.
But much of the confusion comes from the fact that I think of RAW differently than Erys does (and perhaps some others do). That’s because I don’t think the RAW always commit the players to one single answer. In this case, I think both are acceptable by RAW.
Erys insists that my way is not RAW.
My counter is not “My way is the single RAW” which would imply that Erys’ method is not RAW.
My counter is “you’re wrong. My way is also permissible under the RAW.”
But to anyone who sees RAW as one-way-or-the-highway, this is not something that they generally think is a plausible view, so they continually risk slipping back into thinking that I insist that Erys’ method is not RAW.
I think I can answer all of these questions. To start with: must the target be the caster? Or is it possible for a player to declare: I cast magic missile at a duplicate.
Because I can see no reason why an illusory duplicate could not be targetted with magic missile.
Bingo. So, the mere fact that mirror image creates three illusory duplicates means that it creates four identical targets. This cannot be escaped. There is no need to consult parts of the text that are explicitly not applicable.
Erys has, in the past, when confronted with this, outright denied that the spell creates three illusory duplicates. He has said that this is only fluff, and so it actually does not happen at all.
Spoiler: ErysI never omitted the rules. I indicated that pretty clearly in my post. It is still visible in parentheses at the bottom, even after you edited out the part when I said “The DM ignores the text in paragraph 2.”
Ignores. Not omits.
I suppose you accidentally editted that part out when you quoted me. Both times.
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The rules are there, they just don’t apply. When you cast magic missile, you’re not attacking, so every thing that follows after “when you are targeted by an attack” does not apply.
So, another intentional misrepresentation.
Quote my stance all you like. Just don’t try to paraphrase it. Every time you paraphrase what I say, you fail. Literally every time.
For example, I never said to omit anything. You said that.
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On the one hand, you accuse me of considering magic missile an attack. I do not. (Another misrepresentation.) On the other hand, when I say that the part of the spell that applies to attacks does not apply to magic missile, you accuse me of ignoring a relevant part of the spell. And yet I’m the one moving the goalposts. Yeah… okay.
Spoiler: The PolarBearI’m talking about validity. You are speaking about the truth of premises and I am speaking about the validity of arguments.
You, however, are not using the same parameters you are asking others for yourself in your "demonstrations".
Erys, on the other hand, is insisting that his way of reading the spell is the single definitive RAW. That is a very high burden of proof.
Sight is not a factor at all. Generally, you do not need to see your target at all. and no specific method is given to convey such a choice or is required to be used as a way of identification. You would not be able to target anyone with a creature only spell, otherwise, without proving that what you want to target is not an illusion.
"A creature". But both my quote here and yours are meaningless. The pool of potential targets shrinks, limiting the choice to "what can be seen". I've not written otherwise for MM (note, we both are forgetting range ... let's leave it out.). The quote you are dissecting to make it look somehow incorrect refers to general targeting rules. It still doesn't address identification requirements, or methods of. You are not discussing my point.
I brought up the orc example to try to illustrate that everyone actually does this, but perhaps doesn’t realize it. Because it is usually inconsequential.
A different example would be a gargoyle that is in the exact same square as a statue of a gargoyle, which looks identical. The player says “I attack the gargoyle.” Well, which one?
Maybe the player and character even know that one is a statue and one is a monster. But that doesn’t mean the character can tell which is which. So, how does the DM determine which one the character picks? – that’s the problem. And in my opinion it’s the same problem that mirror image presents.
Whatever solution there might be, it is a general solution that deals with this type of situation. There would be no good reason to create a new rule every time a situation like this arises.
Nowhere in the generic rules, nor in MM, nor in spellcasting there is a REQUIREMENT of discrete identification by means that the character is capable of for a task a PLAYER undertakes.
Basically, let’s discuss this, more.
HOW you identify a target, by what means, is never handled because is never required by RAW. "the closest leaf on the closest tree" is, RAW, a valid identification, even if the character can't make out which one is it.
For how absurd it is, Fireball doesn't displace objects, doesn't heat water, does not sear equipment. It's magic, it's irrational and no amount of rationality will ever be able to fix it or give us anything to prove or disprove its abilities.
I was not being facetious when I asked Erys if “swords are metal” is a houserule, because a similar conversation came up somewhere, and I think it was with him. I was trying to say that, "surely, the DM is allowed to say a fireball is orange." The answer was no – that’s a houserule. It degenerated into complete absurdity, because you couldn’t say the fireball has any particular colour, but you also couldn’t say it was colourless – in their view, that is.
No one can't imply anything by material factuality, because there isn't a material fact about it. A magical explosion possibly =/= a physical explosion, AND EVEN MORESO YOU SHOULD AGREE BECAUSE YOU ARE AWARE OF HOW BICONDITIONALS WORK.
And that is: spells do nothing more than what is on the tin. RAW, a Fireball doesn't do anything of what you are adding to it, because that's how the rules are written.
This is what can be frustrating about arguing with someone who thinks that RAW work a certain way. The pursuit of exhaustive RAW is the desire to eradicate rulings. And the desire to eradicate rulings is the desire to eliminate the human mind from theGMgame. It is ultimately the elimination of D&D’s greatest feature.
This is misleading. There are not three orcs on a meaningful example.
There is one orc and two illusory duplicates produced by MI which cannot be distinguished by comparing their form.
There's only one creature, one orc worth of sounds and tracks and stench and whatnot that, at the appeareance, has three identical looking copies of "orc" constantly shifting position in place, intersecting and, somehow, reconciling the "mimic all movements" with "move in a way that makes so that you lose track", something that is an impossibility.
It's their job. But this doesn't make it, or any of their decisions, RAW or an interpretation thereof.
[hopefully there are no great errors, written this at different, limited times, so i hope it's coherent]
Spoiler: Homebrewed Mirror Image (It’s technically homebrewed - so it will be fun to hear Erys jump on this and say that “Burger now admits that his version is homebrewed – I quoted him so it must be true”)
Note: I will not be using this home-brew, because I prefer to play by RAW. Also, this spell functions in a way that is permissible under RAW, anyway.
Mirror Image
2nd-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 minute
Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it’s impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates.
Each time a creature targets you or a duplicate during the spell’s duration, roll a d20 to determine whether you or one of your duplicates is targeted.
If you have three duplicates, a roll of 6 or higher indicates that a duplicate is targeted. With two duplicates, the roll must be an 8 or higher. With one duplicate, the roll must be an 11 or higher.
A duplicate’s AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier. If a duplicate is hit*, it is destroyed. A duplicate can be destroyed only by a hit*. It ignores all other damage and effects. The spell ends when all three duplicates are destroyed.
A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can’t see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight.
* note that even though magic missile does not require an attack roll, it specifically hits targetsLast edited by BurgerBeast; 2018-09-24 at 09:10 PM.
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2018-09-24, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
“The creature standing 20’ in front of me” is just as valid as a ‘picked’ target as ‘Bill’ as is pointing to a creature. All are valid ways to interpret the wording used for MM.
Further, compare it to Scrying:
Scrying: “You can see and hear a particular creature you choose that is on the same plane of existence as you.”
MM: “Each dart hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range.”
“Creature you choose” and “creature of your choice” are interchangeable so if you say MM requires more specific identification (like being able to accurately point at them), Scrying should likewise require it.
Similarly, if you can choose the target of Scrying by saying a name (or even just thinking of a specific creature), the same should hold true of MM, though MM does additionally require that you can see them and they are in range, it shouldn’t otherwise change how you define selecting a target.
Looking at it this way, choosing “Bill” should very much make the MM darts unerringly hit Bill, assuming you can see him and he’s in range.
With no subsequent effect of the spell, sure. But given the above on selecting a target, why would you?
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2018-09-24, 09:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
I'm not reading all of the posts since my last so I apologise if I'm repeating someone or some other terrible offense because of that. :P
Following RAW these are how MM and MI can interact:
1. I target Caster A with MM and all 3+ darts strike the target.
This happens because MM says it automatically strikes whatever I cast it at, and MI only allows for an attack to be redirected. Since MM is not an attack it cannot be redirected by MI.
2. I cast MM and state that I'm going to attempt to target multiple duplicates and/or Caster A. Since I'm completely unable to track any given image due to the wording of MI:
"Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real."
And assuming that also means no single image could be tracked in general because if it could you would simply follow all the duplicates and by process of elimination break the rule that you can't track the real image. (Technically this would fall under a DM ruling as it's not explicitly stated, but is very much implied)
Then the DM would have to make a ruling on what you hit. There are no rules to govern this, but there are rules to govern what happens after targets are determined which is that the darts that targeted the real image damage Caster A and all other darts do nothing, simply flying to the position of the illusion, and having accomplished their 'mission' of striking an illusion disappear.
There is no third option to stay within the bounds of RAW and even number two is using a specific instance in XGtE to overrule the general statement that only attacks are effected by MI.
Forcing a player to choose randomly between the images (created by MI) for any spell or effect that is not reliant on an attack roll is explicitly outside of RAW. MI it's VERY clear on how it effects things when the caster is targeted.
"Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration"
If you are targeted by a spell that isn't an attack then MI does nothing. MM is not an attack, something I believe we all agree on and therefore, unless specifically attempted by the caster of MM, is incapable of hitting a duplicate.
Any other interpretation requires adding to the MI spell, and is instantly outside of RAW because of that. It is 100% a houserule to allow MI to affect any non attack.
Edited for clarityLast edited by Galithar; 2018-09-24 at 09:37 PM.
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2018-09-24, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
Hmm. Second Iteration!
Spoiler: 'Brewed MI
Mirror Image
2nd Level Illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: S
Duration: 1 minute
Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss any or all of the illusory duplicates.
Each time a creature targets you with an attack, spell or ability that requires a saving throw, roll a d12 to determine if a duplicate is targeted instead. If you have three duplicates, a roll of 4 or higher indicates that a duplicate is targeted. With two duplicates the roll must be 5 or higher. With one duplicate the roll must be 7 or higher. Any attack or spell effect that is redirected to a duplicate destroys it, and the spell ends early if all duplicates are removed.
A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can’t see, if it relies on senses other than sight (such as blindsight), if it can perceive illusions as false (as with truesight) or if the attack, spell or ability creates an area of effect (such as a Fireball spell).
Sidenote: In the case of Magic Missile and similar each instance of targeting is redirected individually and simultaneously.
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2018-09-24, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
But it's not a question of how the rules apply to selecting a target. It's a question of whether it is possible, in the most general independent-of-D&D sense of the term.
Further, compare it to Scrying:
I suppose another way to put it would be: why must you see the target of MM? What makes it different than scrying?
Looking at it this way, choosing “Bill” should very much make the MM darts unerringly hit Bill, assuming you can see him and he’s in range.
Yeah... no thanks.
With no subsequent effect of the spell, sure. But given the above on selecting a target, why would you?
Likewise, you should be able to target a duplicate with an attack.
The question then is: is it possible to, while trying to strike a duplicate, hit Bob instead? Again, I say it is obviously so. But others say it is not, because the spell has a magical redirection effect that only triggers if you try to strike Bob.
They will perform astonishing feats of word acrobatics to avoid or explain away the inconsistencies.
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On the issue of the (non-existent) "magical protection" afforded by mirror image:
Suppose that there was a spell that produced three illusory duplicates that were targetable and destroyable and indistinguishable from the caster, but it offered no additional magical protection. When someone tried to strike the caster, what would be the odds that they would actually strike a duplicate instead? 75%.
And with 2 duplicates? 67%
And with 1 duplicate? 50%.
Now compare this to mirror image, which (supposedly) not only creates illusory duplicates, but is capable of magically deflecting attacks away from the caster and into the duplicates. What would you expect the chances to be in that case?
75%, and 67%, and 50%? Does that strike you as the expected chances in the presence of additional magical protection?
Because that's what it does (well, not quite, but it's as close as you can get with a d20 - with two duplicates it is actually 65% which is worse than the random chance.)
So, this supposed magical protection afforded by mirror image has no effect that differentiates it from randomly picking one of the targets, except that it is mathematically worse than random chance in the case of 2 duplicates. The only tangible effect of the magical protection is to attract more attacks than would otherwise be expected a very small percentage of the time.
That is pretty convincing. Clearly, mirror image magically deflects attacks. NOT.
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2018-09-24, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
I would raise the level of the spell significantly higher as it's utility has dramatically increased. As stated in this thread elsewhere negating an ninth level spell with a second level spell is overpowered. Doing it up to 3 times is insane. I think that counterspell which is a level higher, limited by distance, what you can see, and uses a reaction is the only thing that should be capable of such a feat.
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2018-09-24, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
Burger, I’m disappointed. Has this entire thread not been you proclaiming “this is valid by RAW” while others responded with the equivalent of “yeah...no thanks?”
What I laid out is 100% RAW regarding targeting. If the king (granted to make it a specific creature, you’ll probably have to include “the king of ______”, such as “the King of the North”) is within 120’ and you can see him, why couldn’t you cast MM on him? That’s 100% allowed RAW.
This just seems like you don’t like the RAW and just want to dismiss it, however, that doesn’t change that it is, in fact, RAW.
I don’t see how you could argue your view of MI while dismissing this without being hypocritical.
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2018-09-24, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
... so don't use a single target spell against it. Same as if you tried to sneak attack, there is a good chance of wastage. Play to your strengths and counterspell, dispell, magic Missile, AoE blast, sic your fighter or monk on them, etc. There's plenty of ways around it still, even without using a higher level slot.
Could make it a 3rd though, Blur might get some use that way.Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2018-09-24, 10:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
Talk about disingenuous. You are crossing to outright lying. Not cool. But, feel free to link where I said the spell "didn't make duplicates".
To reinforce my point: I have said and will continue to say that the description of the spell does not preclude new rules that were some how 'forgot' by the Developers of the game. I.e.: The spell, As Written, only protects against Attacks; just because there are duplicates the spell does not force you to choose between them, nor does it extend protection to Actions/Spells that do not use Attacks.
SpoilerOriginally Posted by BurgerBeast
In what world does ignoring the Written Rule of the Spell = following RAW? You are not making a ruling on a rule that is under defined, you are outright changing how a spell works.
Remember, you already agreed with me in post 131 that "Rewriting and omitting the rules of the game, including a spell, is house-ruling."
Originally Posted by BurgerBeastLast edited by Erys; 2018-09-24 at 10:29 PM.
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2018-09-24, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
With your house ruled Mirror Image, I think bumping it up to third (or maybe higher) is wise. And maybe make it concentration.
If you make it too good, then anyone without it will be at a disadvantage to anyone with it. In its current form I feel it is 'too good.'
(Love the use of a D12 though, $$)
(In my humble opinion, of course).Last edited by Erys; 2018-09-24 at 10:33 PM.
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2018-09-24, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
Comparison to Sneak attack isn't equivalent. When I attack, sneak attack triggers on a hit only. As a rogue I'm going to have multiple attacks to try to land one. Nothing is wasted it could just miss and I use sneak attack on my second attack if it hits. Using power word kill however would completely waste a high level spell slot. So sure I could choose to use something else, but I just don't think that a second level spell should have an impact on my decisions to use high level spells.
You can find this balanced and think that a second level spell should have that kind of power especially if your table is in to it. I'm just disagreeing. A cool compromise might be too make it a level 4 spell and allow it to redirect spell effects of 4th level or lower. Or even give it an extra dice roll (a la counter spell) in those cases if your table likes rolling extra die.
Also adding concentration could be a huge balancer as well.
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2018-09-24, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
I'm not sure why it's hypocritical to think that you have to pick your target. If you say "I target the king" but you can't pick him out, even though you can see him, I see every reason to ask for clarification about who you are targeting. "The king" offers no clarity if you can't actually pick him out.
This would mean you could stand at the top of a castle wall, looking out on a field of a thousand soldiers, and say “I cast magic missile at George Underfoot.” You might not even know if he’s there at all, even tough you can technically see him, because he’s one of the soldiers in your field of view. And then the missiles hit him?
No thanks.
Actually, I think you just outright refused to answer the question, but I can’t remember. You've refused to answer questions in this thread, as well. Why don't you answer them now?
Does mirror image create three illusory duplicates?
Is it RAW to say that fireballs are orange, or blue, or yellow, or red, or some combination?
Is it RAW to say that swords are made of metal?
And that is different, how exactly? You are "ignoring" 85% of the spell, and adding entirely new elements (i.e adjudications for non-Attacks) to it.
So, if the caster is attacked, I apply the part that tells me what to do when he is attacked. If the caster is not attacked, I don't apply that part (i.e. I ignore it). And then you scream that I omitted parts of the spell, apparently.
Likewise, if the attacker can't see, then I apply the part that tells me what to do if the attacker can't see. If the attacker can see, I ignore the part about casters who can't see. And then you scream that I omitted parts of the spell, apparently.
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Also, I never added any adjudications to the spell for non-attacks (false charge, again). I said that adjudications are required beyond the spell. Specifically, the DM has to adjudicate which target is selected whenever the character has to make a random decision between targets. This is totally indpendent of the mirror image spell text.
In what world does ignoring the Written Rule of the Spell = following RAW?
You are not making a ruling on a rule that is under defined, you are outright changing how a spell works.
Remember, you already agreed with me in post 131 that "Rewriting and omitting the rules of the game, including a spell, is house-ruling."
Again, prove it. Provide links. I have told you repeatedly Mirror Image does not protect against Magic Missile because there is NO ATTACK. Not the other way around.
Not to mention, you’ve been providing “links” to things that do not have anything to do with what you are saying they do. One of them was just a link to the spell text, but was meant to serve as proof of something I said being wrong.
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2018-09-24, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
So, again, where is the RAW that states that?
But that’s besides the point, let’s take that out in this example: instead of “the king,” let’s just say “”Bill” in reference to the caster who just cast MI, who the character casting MM, Steve, knows is named Bill. Steve can see Bill and you don’t have the “who’s the king?” issue here.
RAW, how is that not acceptable as a chosen target? You seem to want there to be more to the targeting rules, though, given your argument on Mirror Image, you seem hesitant to use the word ‘intent.’
Would the above targeting not work for Scrying?
If the target of Scrying has used Major Image to create an illusion of himself, cast with a 6th level slot (so permanent until dispelled), would the Scrying mistakenly target the illusion? If not, why would MM mistakenly target the illusory duplicates created by MI?
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2018-09-24, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
3rd it is then!
Rogues only get 1 attack per round, unless they give up their Cunning Action to Dual Wield. Missing on a SA is the vast majority of your damage output. My point being that a single, all-or-nothing strike is exactly the kind of thing Mirror Image is good at protecting against, at the cost of being defeated by any hit no matter how strong. Flurries strip duplicates fast, and something like Magic Missile or Scorching Ray could potentially be one of the most efficient ways aside from the Extra Attack feature.
Well, i'm not going to pull the Healing Spirit card but how about Bless, Command, Fog Cloud, Goodberry, Healing Word, Shield, Aid, Hold Person, Invisibility, Misty Step, Pass Without Trace, Phantasmal Force, Silence and Suggestion? Lots of low level spells that are plenty powerful at higher levels, even without upcasting.
I'll have to see how it plays out at the table, adding in concentration will be my go-to if it gets overused.Last edited by Kane0; 2018-09-24 at 11:23 PM.
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2018-09-24, 11:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
I'm never going to play a rogue that relies on sneak attack without a second or third attack. Either I'm going to dip for extra attack or use TWF, or combine them. I'm not going to be using my cunning action every round and I don't expect my sneak attack to lend every round.
But for arguments sake let's assume I'm playing a straight classed shield master rogue. If I miss with sneak attack I simply attack next turn. If I'm playing a straight wizard and my Power Word Kill is absorbed by a level 2 (or 3) MI I can't try again next turn.
Also all of those powerful low level spells are great. None of them is going to block my Power Word Kill though. They do one thing well, they don't negate any and all non-AoE damage and effects up to three times. Again I'm not saying you're wrong, just giving an opinion. I recommend starting your own thread in 5e forum or Homebrew to get more feedback though. Never hurts to get more opinions before you take it to your table.
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2018-09-25, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
Kane0 is at least trying to make a productive house rule; us going back and forth is probably more annoying than anything else to the others in the Playground.
Your best bet is to man up that you are house-ruling, and understand that there is nothing wrong with that.Last edited by Erys; 2018-09-25 at 01:30 AM.
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2018-09-25, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
Power Word: "You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly"
Fog Cloud: "The fog is centered on a point you choose, spreading around corners and heavily obscuring the area it fills"
Foiled with a 1st level slot, Darkness would do the same with a 2nd but that's too edgy for me
Not that I'm blowing off your argument or anything, any feedback is good feedback!Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2018-09-25, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
To be fair, the general rule of Darkness and Fog Cloud make them affect all parties equally. Everyone is hampered by them, whereas Mirror Image only hampers others efforts against you.
*There are a couple of class features that let you see through magic darkness. Specific over general and all that.
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2018-09-25, 01:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
In addition to what Erys noted about it affecting both sides, Darkness and Fog Cloud prevent the spell from being cast outright. Whereas your Homebrew on MI would allow it to "eat the spell slot". Again both are low level foils of a high level spell, but one had an additional cost to the defender (effectively blind for them too) where the other has a potential additional cost to the attacker of burning the spell slot.
You can still say, both make it so your best action is something other than a high level spell, but I still feel Mirror Image at level 2 or 3 being able to potentially block any spell is a vastly Superior defense to hiding in darkness. :P
Either way my feedback has been given and I hope your table enjoys the freedom of the rework. It will definitely see more use!
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2018-09-25, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
@Erys: I suppose it makes sense that the reason you have trouble understanding me is the same reason you have trouble understanding the RAW.
You are incorrectly paraphrasing, and then treating your paraphrased version as if it is the same thing as what is actually said.
For example, you go on and on about the RAW stating that mirror image only “protects against attacks.” But that phrase never occurs in the text. And then when asked to cite it, you cite something else, but seem to think that you’re actually citing it.
Mirror image “creates illusory duplicates.” That is what it does.
Feel free to stop any time.
Your best bet is to man up that you are house-ruling, and understand that there is nothing wrong with that.
I don’t add things to the spell, such as “it protects against attacks.” That is a houserule.
It’s too bad you replied inside my quote. There were some things I would’ve replied to, but it’s too much bother.
So, why do you add “protects against attacks” to the spell description?
Also, speaking of “manning up,” I think you should stop avoiding the conversation about selecting a target. You keep making excuses to avoid discussing examples. It gives the impression that you’re afraid to have those conversations because of where they might lead.
I think most of the accusations you’re flinging my way are really just your subconscious realization that they actually apply to you, and the fear to admit it.
The RAW are very simple. But you keep overcomplicating them by bringing in irrelevant and/or invented rules.
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2018-09-25, 02:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
Three copies of you appear, moving in sync with you from the same space. Each time a creature attacks you, roll a d20 to see if it hits one of your copies instead. Rolling 6 or higher if you have all three, 8 or higher if only two, or 11 or higher if only one is left will result in the copy getting hit instead of you. A copy's armor class is 10 + your Dexterity modifier and any successful hit will destroy it.
You may dismiss the copies as an action. The spell ends early if all three copies are destroyed.
An opponent is immune to the effects of this spell if it can't see, relies on other senses to perceive the world, or if it can see through illusions.
It is said in the text it needs to be an attack (see bold), magic missile doesn't require an attack roll, therefor is not an attack. Ergo MI doesn't protect against it.
As long as you can see the target even if you don't know which is the real one, you can call out the target and MM will hit it.
So yes you can walk in the town casting MM to hit the king, MM will only be cast the moment you see the king, you could say you need to realize its the king, so disguises might work against MM but Illusions that look like the real deal will not. Those edge cases with disguises are left up to the DM.
Also don't try to bring logic into the argument it has left the building ages ago since magic made its appearance.
JC has been asked the question and ruled in favor of MM hitting the real target even when MI is up.Last edited by kamap; 2018-09-25 at 03:42 AM.
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2018-09-25, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
Here is a link the spell, again. Just in case you think I am misquoting it.
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2018-09-25, 02:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-09-25, 03:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
Erys, I did have MI's that should have been MM's. Thanks for noticing, they should have been corrected now.
Sig ahead.
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2018-09-25, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
If there is an illusion of an enemy spellcaster standing in an hallway as if guarding it, with the real spellcaster far away, and the PCs see it, but don't realize it's an illusion, and the Sorcerer says "I cast Magic Missile at the spellcaster", is the target the far away spellcaster?
Nope, it's the *illusion* of the spellcaster, which the Sorcerer believes to be real
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2018-09-25, 04:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-09-25, 04:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mirror Images, AoE damage, Magic Missile, and such
Unoriginal while that is true, the case you provided is a completely different case to the Mirror image illusions though, they are at the square you are in. You can see the real one, just not discern which is the real one.
Again you are not making an attack you are casting Magic Missiles which has no attack roll and is not an attack so the Magic Missiles will magically find the real target and hit it.
In your case the rules about invalid targets from xanathar's guide to everything comes into play. Spell is used but doesn't do anything more then that.
Before Xanathar's came along, the spell would just not be cast, which was ridiculous but raw, cause you where targetting an invalid thing and there were no rules about that.
So some spells where used to target anything and everything to find out if it was a mimic.
Fire bolt can be thrown at objects but eldritch blast can only be thrown at creatures.
So anything and everything got an eldritch blast cast at it (or some other spell with the same distinction about targetting a creature), if the eldritch blast was targetting a mimic that looked like a chest it would be cast and hit that chest, if it wasn't a mimic the eldritch blast would not be cast.
It was not logical but raw at the time before Xanathar's came out.Last edited by kamap; 2018-09-25 at 04:50 AM.