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2007-04-17, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Well, granting all you say, there's still two problems. First, the 'Game not Simulation' argument, but that's relatively weak. So, throwing even that aside...
It's no more logical that someone without ranks in profession(cook) can make a tasty pastry, than it is to say that someone with ranks in Profession(Cook), can cook anything equally well. So you either have to go down the road of sub-specialization (e.g., Profession(French Pastry Chef)), which quickly gets ridiculous, or admit it's an abstraction of the ability to cook professionally.
For a real-world example, I present my wife. She bakes wonderful pies. I mean really, good, easily the equal of what you get in a bakery, and so on.
However, I wouldn't expect her to be able to quit her day job and take up pie-making to earn her living. It's a different skill. So, even without 'ranks' in profession(Bake Yummy Pies), (i.e. she can't earn a living doing it) she can still render a delectable treat when inspired to do so."I was working on a case. It had to be a case, because I couldn't afford a desk. Then I saw her. This tall blond lady. She must have been tall because I was on the third floor. She rolled her deep blue eyes towards me. I picked them up and rolled them back. We kissed. She screamed. I took the cigarette from my mouth and kissed her again."
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2007-04-17, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Because Danishes are mechanically modified; namely, by the cooking-related skill. If it should ever happen that you have to bake a pastry, in a situation where the quality of your cooking counts, then you'll need to make a check against that skill to see how good your pastry is. If you don't have that skill, then you'll have to explain how it is that this superior baker doesn't know how to, uh, bake.
It is true that there is no "quality of pastry based on Craft (Baking) skill check" chart anywhere in the Player's Handbook. However, from the SRD:
The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type. The DC depends on the complexity of the item to be created. The DC, your check results, and the price of the item determine how long it takes to make a particular item. The item’s finished price also determines the cost of raw materials.
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2007-04-17, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Grr, this got lost a couple pages back, but let me ask you this -- what difference, if any, exists between the following two people:
- A character with a given selection of stats, feats, skills, spells, and equipment which makes him really good.
- A character with a given selection of stats, feats, skills, spells, and equipment which makes him really good plus a satisfactory backstory which explains it all.
I'm asking because I understand many points being made by many folks, but I don't understand yours. What makes the first character worse in-game than the exact same character who also happens to have a favorite color? Are they somehow incapable of doing the same things?"Invenium viam aut faciam -- I will either find a way, or I shall make one."
"Outnumbered merely means a target-rich environment."
"No Better Friend. No Worse Enemy."
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2007-04-17, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Icy Evil Canadia
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
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2007-04-17, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
One makes sense, the other one does not. You should be able to explain what you can do. But you forgot this guy:
A character with a given selection of stats, feats, skills, spells, and equipment which makes him really good but he says he can do something else entirely different.
Look ma, I'm a archer!
Why do you have that sword and no bow?
No reason...Last edited by asqwasqw; 2007-04-17 at 06:34 PM.
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2007-04-17, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2005
- Location
- The sunny South
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Grr Can rangers not cast divine spells?
anyhow
As far as I know folk are entitled to pursue their hobbies as they see fit.
It must be terribly taxing to be the only right thinking person here.
Back to the reality that the rest of us inhabit for a while, I am possibly not as flexable as some... using the baker analogy from earlier I would expect at least a rank or two in the skill if you are having baker as a background, but thats just me.
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2007-04-17, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Austin TX
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Asqwasqw - I don't understand your point. Do the quick use NPCs in the DMG not make sense? They're just npcs without the backstory provided. What about them doesn't make sense?
If you said that one is a character and the other isn't, that it's just a systemic skeleton, I'd side with you. Is that what you mean?
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2007-04-17, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Originally Posted by Vyker View Post
Grr, this got lost a couple pages back, but let me ask you this -- what difference, if any, exists between the following two people:
- A character with a given selection of stats, feats, skills, spells, and equipment which makes him really good.
- A character with a given selection of stats, feats, skills, spells, and equipment which makes him really good plus a satisfactory backstory which explains it all.
I'm asking because I understand many points being made by many folks, but I don't understand yours. What makes the first character worse in-game than the exact same character who also happens to have a favorite color? Are they somehow incapable of doing the same things?The fact that you asked this question from that perspective is going to get you all manner of grief here.
Most roleplayers will say the backstory is paramount, without one you don't actually have a character. Those other things are all secondary."Invenium viam aut faciam -- I will either find a way, or I shall make one."
"Outnumbered merely means a target-rich environment."
"No Better Friend. No Worse Enemy."
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2007-04-17, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Yeah, they can cast divine spells, but they can't turn undead... an optional use of which is channeling positive energy.
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2007-04-17, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Yes, I mean they are a skeleton that does nothing but kill. And the quick use NPC's don't need a backstory because
A) You are supposed to make one yourself.
B) You don't need to know the life story of a NPC.
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2007-04-17, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Austin TX
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
So they both make sense, you just think one is superior to the other.
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2007-04-17, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
I am saying that one doesn't make sense because it has no life, no fluff.
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2007-04-17, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Austin TX
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
The phrase "make sense" has nothing to do with fluff. One has a backstory, the other doesn't. You prefer the first. Sense doesn't play into it.
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2007-04-17, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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2007-04-17, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Icy Evil Canadia
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Actually it is entirely about sense.
The backstory, the "fluff" is the life of the character. Without it, you don't actually have a character...you have a mindless construct. Most DMs won't even let you come to the table without the fluff. It is, afterall, a roleplaying game. Ability scores, feats, skills and such are not a character on their own, you don't yet have the role to play. The character is who you write into that backstory, whether you do it by affixing them to your character concept after the fact like a poorly fitted suit, or whether you build the character mechanics to fit your idea, it doesn't matter.
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2007-04-17, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
I think it does. Otherwise you start asking weird questions that have no justificable answer. Where did you get that sword? I, uh, I... etc. But yeah, make sense is not the best of terms to use. You get my meaning though.
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2007-04-17, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
One is a character for a role and the other is a character for an adventure game."Invenium viam aut faciam -- I will either find a way, or I shall make one."
"Outnumbered merely means a target-rich environment."
"No Better Friend. No Worse Enemy."
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2007-04-17, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Austin TX
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Talya - Urr, yes I understand that. In fact I said it on this page. To quote myself.
If you said that one is a character and the other isn't, that it's just a systemic skeleton, I'd side with you. Is that what you mean?
asqwasqw - Sorry, I'm was just perturbed at what was probably unmeant subtext in the phrase.Last edited by Counterspin; 2007-04-17 at 07:01 PM.
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2007-04-17, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Extradimensional pocket...with the lint.
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
In my group we have a guy who plays solely story oriented characters and will even refuse to make a character "optomized" at times. Other times, in more difficult campaigns or with more difficult builds (a barbarian who didn't wear armor and had a 9 int) he will optomize to make up for weaknesses.
My characters focus on a story concept, then I try to create the best possible way to represent that concept. I generally focus on one or two aspects and try to max those out. These aspects are based on the character, not what I feel will be useful in a game. I have one character which I "power gamed" because I created him to be more powerful than normal.Johannes factotum of the Bard Defense League
"A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire
"Jack of all trades, master of none, though ofttimes better than master of one."
The main question that any DM should ask before making a house-rule or exception is, "Is it balanced?"
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2007-04-17, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
I don't feel that these examples contrast Grr's point. I'd bring up a collorary, if you would:
- A character with a given selection of stats, feats, skills, spells, and equipment which makes him very effective in-game, and who has a backstory that justifies that capability.
- A character with a given selection of stats, feats, skills, spells, and equipment dictated by a backstory which happens to be very effective in-game.
It's about priorities. If you place the game first, you risk sacrificing the quality of your story. If you place the story first, you risk sacrificing your effectiveness in the game. Grr is stating that placing the game first is bad, presumably because he's more story-oriented in his game.
At least, that's what I figure.
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2007-04-17, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- California
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Danishes are mechanically modeled (what I meant to type, by the way, apologies) in only the very loosest sense of the word. The Profession skill only generates money. The Craft skill can generate items, but if you're creating anything that doesn't already exist by D&D rules, it has no real mechanical attributes besides type, complexity and price. In other words, such an item might be useful for roleplaying or storytelling purposes, but mechanically, it's only good for resale.
Perfectly true, if you want to make a pastry that mechanically has a type, complexity, and price. Our hypothetical baker doesn't, he just wants the flavor, which has no mechanical properties.
Storytelling concerns are entirely flavor elements, as they have nothing to do with what D&D's system mechanically models. The SRD would be pretty hilarious if it included Craft (Cooking) DCs by which every monster could be "defeated," though.
More to the point, I honestly wouldn't have any problem as a DM letting our hypothetical flavor-based baker's fluffy creations satisfy those kinds of challenges. The best way to articulate my reasoning is by example: per RAW, any character whose background fluff includes spending their entire life in one town (over 100 years for an elf) will know only the most ludicrously basic things about their hometown unless they invest in Knowledge (Local), which will grant them a comparable level of knowledge for every town on the face of the planet. When the issues at hand are about the story and its progression, rather than making gold or dealing damage or something else that actually affects D&D's mechanical system, I don't see any good reason not to indulge players' flavor. In fact, if you restrict players' flavor from having any influence on the events of the story, you're discouraging them from coming up with any flavor in the first place. Taken to its logical extreme, forcing mechanics to dictate the story turns every single conversation in the game into a diplomacy, bluff or intimidate check, without any actual roleplaying involved. Not exactly thrilling, and not exactly playing as intended.
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2007-04-17, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Extradimensional pocket...with the lint.
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
This character, a Bard 8, Arcane Duelist 2 (WOTC web pages), Sublime Chord 1 (CAr), Seeker of Song 1 (CAr), Spellsinger 3 (RoF), will seem like a Min Maxed character to you.
Let me give you the story.
He is a fey'ri raised by an elven high mage who trained him to be a bard instead of following his sorcerous inclinations to try to channel his power to a cause which would be less distructive. While he was adventuring, he was taught sword play by a number of characters, which he learned to combine with his magic (hence the ArD). Discovering that he could use his magical talents in other ways, he became obsessed discovering more secrets. Thus he discoverd the way of the Sublime Chord (which I made several Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana checks, and had to spend sessions RPing it out with various mages). Upon realizing the relation of music to magic, he began to search for the origins (annother quest which the DM created when I came up with the idea). He then discovered Primal Music and became a Seeker of the Song. Upon returning home, his "father" presented him with an anchient elven songbook. This taught him the secrets of combining music with more advanced arcana. He became a Spellsinger (which combined SbC and SoS effectively).
This "build" was created with coperation with the DM and while very optomized, it has a long and well developed story wich focused on RP. Would you consider this built around classes or optimization?Johannes factotum of the Bard Defense League
"A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire
"Jack of all trades, master of none, though ofttimes better than master of one."
The main question that any DM should ask before making a house-rule or exception is, "Is it balanced?"
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2007-04-17, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Er, no. Because, you see, making pastry impacts on the simulated world, and is non-random. None of the character features that you can select freely are like that, even if they ought to be (height and weight, say, are mechanically both largely irrelevant and random despite what reality might suggest).
To the first, you've got your facts wrong...one silver buys a day's worth of poor meals, by PHB. And of course, the wiser laborers, and especially the ones with families, will probably be shopping at the market that gets you a pound of flour or a whole chicken for 2 coppers. If they can afford it, maybe whole half-pound loves of bread for the same price. Buying prepared meals is an extravagance for the likes of them.
For the second, maybe they can cripple their special talent badly enough so as not to absolutely force a non-zero profession(cook/baker) rank. Even so they're trying to extract a mechanical ability for their character at no cost whatsoever. Is it intended for 'crunchy' applications? Probably not. To me, there's no such thing as a truly non-crunchy application. At least one skill rank and a decent modifier, that's all I ask.
Noted, but I'm optimistic enough to think they can all be fried. At least, well enough to not disturb me too much.
And a fighter, of course, can use absolutely any weapon not deemed 'exotic', whether or not it even resembles anything they've ever seen before in their lives. And for that matter, climbing rock walls, ropes, and trees require the exact same skillset.
To deal with this without inventing a hundred sub-specialties, the default is to say that any proficient cook has general skills and knowledge necessary to work through just about anything at their skill level. This denies them the ability to do anything exceptionally well, unless they do it by a voluntary penalty on everything else. If DMing, in that particular field, I'd probably be convinced that +2 on pastrymaking-related checks and a -1 on all other cooking checks was a fair character trait.
Are you sure she couldn't? Probably, without knowing the pies in question, not at an actual bakery or restaurant. I doubt they're in the market for people who only make pie and don't have fancy certificates or widespread fame. But maybe at a truck stop (If any of them don't use frozen pies...). And very probably, in a D&D setting. Any prosperous inn would be seriously tempted by a decent pie-maker, at least if she could make passable stew or bread at the same time.
I'd require a trained check and a decent modifier to reliably make a really good pie. If a player wants to restrict their ability by assigning their character total non-proficiency in the non-pie culinary arts, that would be an interesting and flavorful decision.
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2007-04-17, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Austin TX
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
I find the bakery argument pretty disingenuous. The truth of the matter is that it is very rare that a profession or trade will have any significant effect on a game from a system standpoint. The whole problem would be solved rather neatly in my opinion, by doling out four extra skill points at first level for a profession or craft. Bam! Characters aren't any more powerful, and every character has an identifiable civilian job. No fuss no muss.
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2007-04-17, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Pullman, WA
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Profession: Baker will probably never see use in a lot of campaigns. If you're running through Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and you want your 5th-level fighter to say, "Man, I wish I were back in Albuquerque baking delicious pies," there's no need to have a single rank in Profession: Baker. If you never intend to actually roll the check to make a paltry amount of silver pieces in a week, what's the point in putting ranks in? Wave your hand, say, "He used to be a baker," and continue playing a game where 75% of the rules deal with fighting ugly things and taking their treasure.
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2007-04-17, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- California
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
"The simulated world" doesn't exist unless you conflate mechanics and flavor (which, as I explained before, is misguided). There's a sort of abstract world that's governed by explicit and strictly codified rules, and there's the flavorful realm where players actually visualize their characters and actions. There are all kinds of details in the latter realm that have no bearing on the former, such as the colors of objects. Making a pastry without mechanical properties doesn't have any more mechanical impact than choosing to have blue eyes or a suspicious personality. All can influence the events of the story, of course: a beggar helps the players after getting a pastry, eye color is related to mythological heritage, the character refuses to accept a job that was offered by a shady character. The story will change by the outcome, but they just don't influence anything that D&D's game mechanics actually track.
Ah yes, you're right. Which makes it only marginally less ridiculous.
It doesn't say in the SRD that they're pre-prepared meals, just the cost of meals for a day. Of course, the same SRD doesn't require any specific amount of food to avoid starvation effects in the environment section.
How are they trying to extract a mechanical ability for their character? It's purely flavor. There IS no mechanical ability. If they want a mechanical ability that isn't pure fluff, they have to invest ranks in Craft (whatever). The only way it can possibly have any crunchy application is if you're confusing a "crunchy" application to mean any way whatsoever of influencing the game being played.
There's an implicit assertion here that player-created flavor beyond personality isn't allowed to influence the game in any fashion, or at least that every flavor decision must be represented by mechanics. I think that it's a fallacy and a very restrictive way to play the game.
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2007-04-17, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Guess what my warrior does in between adventures... he whittles. He sells those figurines. It's a paltry sum compared to what can be acquired adventuring, but it makes me feel better about the character's personality / work ethic / etc. Instead of loafing around spending money from treasure hoards, he's still earning a living. I've actually had it come into play. We were hired to guard the vault of a wealthy merchant during a rather decadent festival. Thieves liked to use that time, when everyone's drunk and partying, to break into places.
We sent the thieves packing, but not before a small statue that was worth a tidy sum was broken. So I carved a fake and we used an illusion to finish the look of it until we could get the real one mended and replaced the next day.
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2007-04-17, 10:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2006
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
"I was working on a case. It had to be a case, because I couldn't afford a desk. Then I saw her. This tall blond lady. She must have been tall because I was on the third floor. She rolled her deep blue eyes towards me. I picked them up and rolled them back. We kissed. She screamed. I took the cigarette from my mouth and kissed her again."
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2007-04-17, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Yup. Has 10 ranks in craft: woodworking and 10 ranks, profession: carpenter.
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2007-04-17, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2006
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- Illinois
Re: "Optimized" characters or parties?
Neat. And since you used an illusion, presumably none of those 20 ranks made a difference.
Merlin the Tuna