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Thread: Technical question about damage
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2022-09-07, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Technical question about damage
A rat does 1d3 - 4 points of damage. A pseudodragon does 1d3 - 2. A cat does 1d2 - 4, and a raven does 1d2 - 5.
Given that there is a minimum of 1 point, is there any functional difference between these?
Yes, there are differences when affected by magic fang or some such, but other than that, is there any reason to roll the die at all?
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2022-09-07, 11:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
Crits seem like they would be a rare reason.
Last edited by pabelfly; 2022-09-07 at 11:17 PM.
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2022-09-07, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
On a critical hit, 1d3-2 becomes 2d3-4, which has a 1 in 9 chance of dealing 2 points of damage. The others become 2d3-8, 2d2-4, and 2d2-10, which are all guaranteed to still be just 1 point of damage.
Edit: Ninja-ed.Last edited by Maat Mons; 2022-09-07 at 11:21 PM.
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2022-09-08, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
It's kind of disappointing that the game does such a poor job of handling damage at small scales. These are all core rules familiars in this example, they're likely to see combat and they should have combat statistics that aren't just a collection of rounding errors.
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2022-09-08, 02:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
Yeah, in basically every case, they are the same, in effective terms.
Speaking on the issues of the system not handling small numbers: That's because the numbers are already so small as to not have any granularity remaining, for ease of by-hand calculation.
But you can, say, multiply the health and damage by 10. And have any underflow below 1 damage (before multiplication) is instead reduced from 10.
So if you rolled 1d3-4, getting a -2, the result goes back to 1. Multiplied by 10. Then down to 7.
And this does work... but is largely pointless, and is still basically a rounding error. The equivalent of losing 0.3 damage in the unmodified system, while having more complexity in damage calculations. For familiars who, in all likelihood, will not actually be using damage except in the most desperate of situations in which their lives are already forfeit.
Of course, you can simply inflate the numbers. Raise all HD and damage dice by 1 step. Then there will be occasional difference between those damages. There will be no unforeseen consequences to that. /s.Last edited by SangoProduction; 2022-09-08 at 02:41 AM.
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2022-09-08, 02:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
There is. It essentially serves as a buffer for buffs.
For example, if included as a target of good hope (which provides +2 damage), the pseudo-dragon's damage would increase, while cat would not. It also would reduce the the damage of bonus damage applied as part of the same source. For example, a cat with sneak attack would deal 1d2-4+1d6 (making the min/max 1-4). Same deal with things like magic fang.
Tl;dr, you're weak enough that even with buffs you're still weak.You are my God.
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2022-09-08, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
Animal Growth would be another one. The damage difference is negligible at regular size, but would show up on a larger version of the creature.
That's a weird thing I never noticed - is there really no spell that lets you increase the size of a Dragon? Enlarge Person for Humanoids, Animal Growth for Animals, but nothing for the other creature types.
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2022-09-08, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-09-08 at 09:22 AM.
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2022-09-08, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
PF (and after checking, it was grandfathered from 3.5) has crits explicitly only multiply any bonuses, not any penalties to damage. Because of the jank way that works it is mathematically relevant in almost all cases at a low rate.
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2022-09-08, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
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2022-09-08, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
Guys, you're missing something.
Critical hits multiply your roll and bonuses:
Originally Posted by d20srd
Edit: ninjaed.Last edited by Crake; 2022-09-08 at 10:35 AM.
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2022-09-08, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
Last edited by ciopo; 2022-09-08 at 12:00 PM.
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2022-09-09, 02:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
Actually the rules are NOT CLEAR on this (emphasis mine):
Originally Posted by PHB p114Originally Posted by PHB p140
The DMG doesn't help much either:
Originally Posted by DMG p26
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2022-09-09, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
It strikes me now however that Maat Mons' earlier statement that the cat and raven just do one point of damage regardless is incorrect under both versions of the rule, as they both describe rolling damage multiple times and then adding the results up, which means that the minimum damage of a critical hit is the attacker's critical multiplier, since none of those individual damage rolls can be for less than 1 damage
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2022-09-09, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
All those "minuses" for the example creatures are just for their respective Str penalties.
Bump their Str up enough - and there wouldn't be any penalties for damage
Or play as CE Soulborn Pseudodragon - this way, you wouldn't have any Str penalty ever (at least - outside of AMF and such)
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2022-09-09, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
I’m not seeing anything suggesting that the minimum damage rule is applied multiple times on a critical hit. In fact, the wording on minimum damage suggests it applies on a per-hit basis. Since a critical hit is still just one hit, I can’t imagine “the hit still deals 1 point of damage” somehow triggering more than once for that single critical hit.
As a side note, I worry that any interpretation that makes minimum damage trigger two or more times per crit would also make DR apply as many times.My Perpetually-Unfinished Homebrew: Tier-3 Class Suite, Homestuck Races for Pathfinder, Homestuck Races for 5e, Psionic Class Redux
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2022-09-09, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
"roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical"
"you roll your damage more than once ... and add the rolls together
To me this sounds like the RAW is to make multiple seperate damage rolls and then total them up.
Given that you can't roll lower than a 1, this would make the minimum damage equal to the number of rollsLast edited by Bohandas; 2022-09-09 at 04:30 PM.
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2022-09-09, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
But there isn't anything saying you "can't roll lower than 1." There's only something saying the "hit still deals 1 point of damage." Multiple rolls, one hit.
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2022-09-09, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
critical hit (crit): A hit that strikes a vital area and therefore deals double damage or more. To score a critical hit, an attacker must first score a threat (usually a natural 20 on an attack roll) and then succeed on a critical roll (just like another attack roll). Critical hit damage is usually double damage, which means rolling damage twice, just as if the attacker had actually hit the defender two times. (Any extra damage dice, such as from a rogue’s sneak attack, are not rolled multiple times, but are added to the total at the end of the calculation.)
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2022-09-10, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
Thank you for all your answers. I'm still confused, but I'm confused on a higher, better informed level now.
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2022-09-10, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
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2022-09-10, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
How would being a CE soulborn stop you from applying your Strength penalty to damage rolls? The ability says "You gain immunity to any penalty, damage, or drain to your Strength." That stops anything from penalizing your Strength score, but it wouldn't do anything to prevent a low Strength score that you came by honestly from applying penalties to anything else.
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2022-09-10, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-09-10, 09:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-09-11, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
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2022-09-11, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
Are they even actually called penalties? In text and not just colloquially, I mean. I've always called them racial modifiers
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2022-09-11, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
penalty:
Originally Posted by D&D Glossary
Racial penalty is a "penalty"
Size penalty is a "penalty"
Heck - even if you generated the character with naturally low Str - no additional modifiers - it's still a "penalty"
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2022-09-11, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
I thought if your STR penalty brought damage down to 0 you did 1 nonlethal, but it looks like that's a PF thing.
That's not contradictory, no one's saying sneak attack damage gets multiplied. That line is about "extra damage dice," which has nothing to do with a STR penalty. The longer explanation at PHB 140 is worded a bit different though, it says "roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses," which seems to imply that penalties don't apply to crits? And the line about rolling twice is just telling you how to roll for it, not how to actually calculate damage, or DR would apply more than once as someone else said. That's just saying to roll for the extra damage, as opposed to multiplying your first roll.
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2022-09-12, 06:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
I suspect this was an intentional design choice so the size of a dragon is usually indicative of its power for its colour. If a wyrmling dragon can embiggen itself to the size of a colossal great wyrm it causes an extra layer of complexity identifying them…
and also is 100% something a dragon would do. Fear me, for I am mighty, my tiny baby wings will black out the sun!Last edited by Malphegor; 2022-09-12 at 06:04 AM.
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2022-09-12, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Technical question about damage
There's the Wu Jen spell Giant Size which goes up to colossal or the Psychic Warrior power Expansion. Both are Target: Personal though.