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Thread: 5e Monster Building Workshop
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2015-10-11, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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5e Monster Building Workshop
I've been playing with 5e's monster creation rules and I think I'm getting a handle on it. One of the hardest things is figuring out a good CR (and therefore XP value) for a monster once its been created. I think I'm getting it but it occurred to me that we could explore this by creating monsters based on creatures or characters from movies or TV series or novels. The idea is that you'd take such a character and cast it as a 5e monster, using the rules for such in the DMG and MM. Then post your creation here and we can see if it makes sense. No judgment, just a learning process for us all.
I suggest it either being an actual singular character (e.g. Darth Vader) or a representation of a group or class of creatures (e.g. Sardaukar). If the entity is obscure, posting links to images or (better) YouTube clips, if such things exist, would help us understand what it is you're recreating.
And don't limit it to fantasy. SF, military stuff, spy novels, it's all good.
To start off, here's my Klingon Warrior. Not Worf or any "hero" Klingons. These are the mooks.
Spoiler: Klingon Warrior
Klingon Warrior
Medium humanoid (Klingon), any alignment
FEATURES
Armor Class: 12 (with leather armor); 14 (with leather armor and Bat’leth)
Hit Points: 90 (12d8+36)
Speed: 30ft.
STR: 22 (+6); DEX: 12 (+1); CON: 17 (+3); INT: 10 (+0); WIS: 13 (+1); CHA: 8 (-1)
Saving Throws: STR: +8; CON: +5 (advantage)
Senses: Passive Perception: 11
Challenge: 5 (1,800 XP)
Bat’leth Fighting. When wielding a Bat’leth and no other weapons, and in no or light armor, the Klingon Warrior can add its Proficiency Bonus to its armor class.
Brak'lul. The Klingon Warrior’s body was built for combat. It has redundant organs and a reinforced skeleton. This grants the Warrior three benefits:
- It resists non-magical bludgeoning damage.
- It has advantage on CON saving throws.
- It can recover 2d4 HP at the beginning of its turn. It can do this once in between short rests.
Daqtagh Fighting. When attacking with both its Mek’leth and its Daqtagh, the Klingon Warrior can add its STR bonus to the damage of both attacks (if it isn’t already applied), and add its Proficiency Bonus to its Daqtagh damage.
ACTIONS
Multiattack. On its turn, the Klingon Warrior can make two Daqtagh attacks and two Mek’leth attacks, or two Bat’leth attacks.
Daqtagh. Melee Weapon Attack (finesse, light, thrown, range: 20’/60’): +8 to hit, reach 5’, one target. Hit: 11 (1d4+9) piercing damage (+1 damage due to auxiliary blades; +2 due to Daqtagh Fighting).
Mek’leth. Melee Weapon Attack (finesse, light): +8 to hit, reach 5’, one target. Hit: 9 (1d6+6) piercing damage.
Bat’leth. Melee Weapon Attack (versatile): +8 to hit, reach 5’, one target. Hit: 10 (1d8+6) or 11 (1d10+6) slashing damage. See Bat’leth Fighting above.
CR:
This guy has two configurations.
Wielding Bat'leth:
HP: 90 + 5 = CR 2
AC: 14 = CR 4
Adj Def CR = 3
DPR: 22 = CR 3
Att Bon: +6 = CR 5
Adj Off CR = 4
Wielding Daqtagh & Mek'leth:
HP: 90 + 5 = CR 2
AC: 12 = CR 0
Adj Def CR = 1
DPR: 40 = CR 6
Att Bon: +6 = CR 5
Adj Off CR = 6
Combining the best of his offensive and defensive CRs gives him a final CR of 4.5, rounded to 5.
Edit: Overhauled.Last edited by EggKookoo; 2015-10-27 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Making title more generic
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2015-10-11, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
So, I'm going to have to pay the tax tomorrow, because it's almost midnight and it takes me ages to stat up new monsters...
I just wanted to say that your klingon seems way off on the CR.
I get:
Defensive CR: 33HP plus 5 points of regen = CR 0.25, AC 15 boosts this to 1.25 (I think. I've never been sure whether you go up by 1 point or 1 step. I'm taking the safe (and generous) option here).
Offensive CR: 15DPR = CR2, Attack Bonus 5 boosts this to 3.
Overall CR: (3+1.25)/2=4.25/2 = 2.125 (rounds to 2).
To be honest, I don't see why you can't just push the HP up a bit. A CR4 creature ought to have 10 to 13 hit dice, especially if it doesn't have many additional defenses.Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!
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2015-10-11, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
Crap, I had originally given him a higher AC as part of his Klingon toughness. I got rid of that but forgot to recalc.
So for defensive, it's 1/4 for the HP and a minimum of 5 for the AC (of 15), averages to 2.75.
Offensive, it's 2 for the DPR and 0 for the attack bonus (+2), averages to 1.
(2.75 + 1) / 2 = 1.85, rounded up to 2, then I arbitrarily added 1 because of his Klingon-y toughness (the Brak'lul thing). So it should be 3, not 4. The 4 was with the old AC.
I could increase his HD but I want to leave room for the Worfs.
Good to know my CR calc isn't fundamentally busted (just forgot to account for a change).
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2015-10-12, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
Spoiler: Reply to above postThat's... not how the calculation works at all. You don't average anything until the end. Provisional Defensive CR is 0.25, then you look at the target AC, which is 13. Your AC is 15, so 15-13=2. A difference of 2 means you increase the Def CR by 1. That's it. CR5 has nothing to do with it. You look up the HP, then shift based on the AC.
Likewise, the attack bonus is +5. That's 2 more than the target attack bonus for the DPR, so you shift Atk CR up by one.
You can't just go throwing in random CR bonuses for abilities. Especially in this case, because the 'Klingon toughness' doesn't affect the overall CR at all. All it adds is one save and one damage resistance (the regeneration is already taken into account above). Neither save bonuses nor resistances matter until you have three or more of either of them, and then they just modify the effective HP and AC.
Okay, I've just watched the entirety of Steven Universe this weekend, so I think I'll start with my favourite gem, Pearl. I'll be aiming for a CR of 3 or 4.
Spoiler: GifsParry!
Holo-Pearl = Mirror Image, right?
Pearl
Medium humanoid (gem), lawful neutral
Armour Class 14
Hit Points 78 (12d8 + 24)
Speed 30 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA 12 (+1) 18 (+4) 14 (+2) 19 (+4) 7 (-2) 6 (-2)
Saving Throws Con +4, Wis +0
Skills History +8, Investigation +6
Senses passive Perception 8
Languages Common
Challenge 3 (700 XP)
Do it for Her. If Pearl can see an ally, she has advantage on Wisdom saving throws and is immune to the Frightened condition.
Innate Spellcasting. Pearl's spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 14). She can innately cast the following spells, using her gem as a focus.
At will: Eldritch Blast, Minor Illusion
1/day: Mirror Image
Magical Weapons. Pearl's weapon attacks are magical. As a free action on her turn, Pearl can switch her weapon between its sword-form (which is one-handed) and spear-form (which is two-handed).
Actions
Multiattack. Pearl makes three melee weapon attacks.
Spear. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 9 (1d10 + 4) slashing damage.
Sword. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) slashing damage.
Reactions
Parry. Pearl adds 2 to her AC against one melee attack that would hit her. To do so, she must see the attacker and be wielding a one-handed melee weapon.
Spoiler: NotesI've statted the 'spear' as if it were a finesse longsword/battleaxe, because that's a fair representation of how she wields it.
Def CR: 78HP = CR1, AC=14+1 (parry)=15, final Def CR: 2
Atk CR: 27DPR = CR4, Atk bonus = +6, final Atk CR: 4
Overall CR: (2+4)/2=3.Last edited by Ninja_Prawn; 2015-10-23 at 04:54 AM.
Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!
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2015-10-12, 05:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
Right, I actually knew this. It was late and I lost my mind.
Wow, so he's kind of a wimp. I need to up the damage or something.
So I have a question about design process. How do you decide how many hit dice the creature has? Do you just arbitrarily pick something based on the hit die type, your chosen CON score, and the target HP based on the CR you're aiming for?
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2015-10-12, 05:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
For me, this is the fuzziest part of the whole process. Really, you just have to do whatever it takes to get the HP into the target zone.
If I'm doing something really complicated and detailed, I'll go through the MM and compile a list of all the monsters with the CR I'm going for, then look at how many hit dice they have. If there's a pattern, I'll follow that. Otherwise, just pick something, see if it works, then tinker from there.Last edited by Ninja_Prawn; 2015-10-12 at 06:08 AM.
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2015-10-12, 06:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
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2015-10-12, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
I tend to round CRs 'correctly' - so in this case, I'd go up. Especially because its peak damage output is so high. In fact, I thought you were supposed to measure CR by the creature's best attack and best defence - even if they can't both happen at the same time - which would push the Klingon up to CR5 overall.
Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!
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2015-10-12, 07:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
That's interesting, but a little counter-intuitive. I mean about using the best of both even if they're not useable simultaneously. I think from a design philosophy perspective, I'd rather aim to have the two different configs have the same (or nearly the same) CR. This would make it easier to manage and it would also reduce the incentive to keep it in the higher CR config all the time. If that's not feasible I'd probably go with the higher config as the monster's final CR, since it's capable of operating that way.
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2015-10-12, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
It's a bit counter-intuitive, but given that the Klingon can change the way it operates by swapping its weaponry (which it can do in combat), I think it's fair to measure it as the 'best of both'.
The fact that it can respond to changing battlefield situations by changing its weapon loadout makes it potentially more dangerous, especially if you're fighting more than one of them.Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!
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2015-10-12, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2015-10-15, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
Hey, so say I'm making a Rogue-based monster. What effect does something like Uncanny Dodge have on its CR? Does it just add 1.x to its effective HP?
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2015-10-15, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
Ugh, that's a tricky one. Uncanny Dodge is an extremely powerful ability that probably shouldn't be used for monsters. If you have to, the +50% effective HP seems like a reasonable guess. Or just give it the Parry reaction.
Side note: the ranger/rogue ability Evasion is basically the same as the monster ability Avoidance, which (according to DMG 280) increases effective AC by 1. So you're probably safe to use that.Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!
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2015-10-15, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
I wouldn't say +50%. That means it only suffers two attacks a turn, whereas the players can easily gang up on it to force it to waste its reaction once and then hit it with many more attacks.
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
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2015-10-15, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!
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2015-10-15, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
I suppose I can just give it +1 AC and call it "nimble." The more I get into this, the more I see that a lot of PC abilities are just flavorful ways of increasing AC, or increasing HP, or increasing to-hit, and it's easier just to give those to monsters as simple AC/HP/to-hit bonuses. I mean, it's kind of a no-brainer but monster design really drives the idea home.
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2015-10-15, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
Yup. That's one of the reasons I enjoy homebrewing stuff. It gives you a chance to lift the bonnet and really explore the inner workings of the system.
You definitely get a much better understanding of things once you've spent some time building them from the ground up - and that applies to everything, not just board games.Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!
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2015-10-24, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
I'm struggling with this one. I want to create a bard-like monster that can inspire its allies the same way the PC bard can. I'm thinking I'd give the creature a set amount of dice based on its CHA mod, and set the die type to d10. The question is, how do I account for this in its CR? I could just add the die average to its to-hit bonus but really it benefits the creatures around it. Does it even increase this creature's CR at all?
I looked in the DMG under Monster Features but I couldn't find anything that seemed to match or even be close.
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2015-10-24, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
There are some similar abilities in the MM, like the Hobgoblin Captain's Leadership or the Goblin Boss' Redirect Attack, but they're not quite what you're looking for.
The DMG doesn't think they have any impact on CR, whereas a straightforward implementation of Bardic Inspiration probably would.
You could try modifying the CRs of the minions that are being inspired, though that would be easier if it were a damage or temp HP buff, rather than a to-hit buff (then you could assume they gain the benefit on one turn out of three).
I'd recommend making it a Recharge X ability (like Leadership), rather than a dice/rest ability, because most monsters don't rest 'on screen'. If they get 4 dice/rest, they have no incentive to hold them back, whereas forcing them to wait for a recharge makes them play more like a PC would.Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!
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2015-10-24, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
I ended up going a different route with the creature, but I appreciate your input. The whole "not resting" thing also impacts spellcasting creatures. I've basically decided not to create any creature that just "casts spells" but rather give the creature specific spell-like abilities.
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2015-10-27, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
Another question, which I originally asked in the 5e RAW thread. I think I know how I'd handle it but I was curious if anyone had dealt with this before.
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2015-10-27, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!
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2015-10-27, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
I think it's not flat. The Bugbear description is thus:
Brute. A melee weapon deals one extra die of its damage when the bugbear hits with it.
The DMG says:
Increase the monster's effective per-round damage by the amount noted in the trait.
This suggests to me that it's one extra die of whatever it uses for damage.
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2015-10-27, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop Based on Movies. Novels, TV
Lydia Seaspray by Oneris!
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2015-10-27, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 5e Monster Building Workshop
Oh, I see. I hadn't seen flat used in that context before.
On their own, both brute and enlarge are pretty clear. My question in the other thread was what the RAW order was for a creature that has both. Apparently there is none.
Personally, I don't think it matters as long as the increase in damage is accounted for in the creature's CR. For a greatsword-wielder, it's a difference between 17 and 21 dice-based damage per hit (before mods). For smaller weapons and big STR mods, the difference is less.