The LA-assignment thread VII: LA LA Land

[Zecrin]

I vote +2 for the Shator.

I am not saying it is the comparison point but the fact is at level 15 it is on the table, so yes we can't just ignore the fact that at level 15 with no LA I can be just about anything I want as a tier 1 or 2 class. That should be kept in mind when trying to give out LA at 15+, I can either be a monster with 13 rhd and 2 la or I can be a wizard and turn myself into something more powerful...

Even ignoring shapechange wild shape has been a thing since level 5 and polymorph came on at level 7-8 and there are ways to even pull in EX special qualities and SU abilities for 2-5 levels by level 15. That inherently devalues the worth of ability scores, all EX special attacks and starts to cut away at the worth of EX special abilities and even SU abilities.

I agree with the general sentiment here, but according to the "compare monsters to the most similar class" maxim of the thread we do have to ignore shapechange, polymorph, and wildshape, because 90% percent of the time, the monster is not most similar to wizard/sorcerer or druid.

However, one could argue that because wizards, sorcerers, and druids can replicate any stat, movement type, armor class, extraordinary ability, supernatural ability, and saving throw, they are the closest point of comparison for every monster. However, this creates the very problem that "compare monsters to the most similar class" sought to avoid. Namely, we begin to correct for tier imbalances every time we assign LA.

Uh, no. I meant they have a straightforward and obvious progression path, unlike the other two.

Do you mean that sorcerer / abjurant champion is a more straightforward progression than duskblade, or just arcanamach and ranger? I'm not sure I understand what straightforwardness and obviousness in progression path have to do with how well this particular progression path compares to the Shator?

[Lapak]

Do you mean that sorcerer / abjurant champion is a more straightforward progression than duskblade, or just arcanamach and ranger? I'm not sure I understand what straightforwardness and obviousness in progression path have to do with how well this particular progression path compares to the Shator?

99% certain they mean it is the obvious progression path FOR the Shator, since it would allow them to progress their HD-based casting while Duskblade would start a new progression at level 1. And I agree with that; judging how the build holds up at its HD is important, but so is how it would be able to move forward - and that does provide a viable route.

[Zecrin]

99% certain they mean it is the obvious progression path FOR the Shator, since it would allow them to progress their HD-based casting while Duskblade would start a new progression at level 1. And I agree with that; judging how the build holds up at its HD is important, but so is how it would be able to move forward - and that does provide a viable route.

Ah, this makes much more sense! Sorry for the confusion; I agree wholeheartedly.

[liquidformat]

I vote +2 for the Shator.



I agree with the general sentiment here, but according to the "compare monsters to the most similar class" maxim of the thread we do have to ignore shapechange, polymorph, and wildshape, because 90% percent of the time, the monster is not most similar to wizard/sorcerer or druid.

However, one could argue that because wizards, sorcerers, and druids can replicate any stat, movement type, armor class, extraordinary ability, supernatural ability, and saving throw, they are the closest point of comparison for every monster. However, this creates the very problem that "compare monsters to the most similar class" sought to avoid. Namely, we begin to correct for tier imbalances every time we assign LA.

Wild Shape Ranger is a solid tier 3 base class according to both the original tiering as well as the retiering project here on GitP; so using wild shape ranger/MoMF build, a barbarian/bear warrior build, primeval build or heck even barbarian/ runescared berserker build has polymorph by level 16. Also a gish that goes looses 4+ caster levels is also firmly in the tier 3 range and would have access to polymorph by level 12. Heck a rogue with a decent UMD has no problem using a polymorph wand and doing so isn't a horrible choice for wbl, not to mention chameleon... So Wild Shape and polymorph are fine to use as reference points for monsters above level 10.

To not use them is purposely nerfing monsters and over valuing abilities that shouldn't be. By Level ~12 it is easy enough to get high ability scores and natural armor that they are moot, EX special attacks are similarly easy to get without loosing any class levels that they have little value, even immunities are pretty straight forward to get. Special qualities and SU abilities still have some value since you have to jump through some hoops to get access to them.

All and all the way I see it is the availability of things like polymorph and wild shape makes it hard to get an LA above +0 at level 10+. That isn't to say these monsters aren't fine as +0 LA it is just saying they need something special to be above +0.

Do you mean that sorcerer / abjurant champion is a more straightforward progression than duskblade, or just arcanamach and ranger? I'm not sure I understand what straightforwardness and obviousness in progression path have to do with how well this particular progression path compares to the Shator?

He is shator should go with a level of sorc then into abjurant champion, not that it should be compared to a sorc/abjurant champ build.

[Zecrin]

Comparing the Kelubar to a rogue 4/ swordsage 2/ assassin 7. The Kelubar has superior hp, attack bonus, ability scores, AC, saves, immunities, and out of combat spell utility.

The rogue (while having fewer skill points, racial bonuses to skills, and ability score modifiers) does have UMD, and thus has better skills. Additionally, the rogue enjoys better in-combat utility, and damage.

I think that the Kelubar has a slight edge when it comes to special abilities. For example, the Kelubar has what's essentially an insta-kill aura set at at the same DC as the rogue's death attack; DR is probably better than improved uncanny dodge; SR is probably better than trapfinding; and summon demodand is probably better than poison use / resistance.

Overall, I rate the Kelubar as +1

To not use them is purposely nerfing monsters and over valuing abilities that shouldn't be. By Level ~12 it is easy enough to get high ability scores and natural armor that they are moot, EX special attacks are similarly easy to get without loosing any class levels that they have little value, even immunities are pretty straight forward to get. Special qualities and SU abilities still have some value since you have to jump through some hoops to get access to them.

This seems reasonable. However, I will note that generally only T1 casters are shapechanging, wild-shaping into outsiders, and persisting their polymorphs. Unless you build for it, acquiring extraordinary special qualities, boosts to mental stats, supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities, good skill-points, saves, and hp, as well as a full BAB isn't as easy as casting polymorph.

Also, even when you do have polymoph at your disposal, higher levels are rife with dispels and anti-magic fields, so high natural physical ability scores are still somewhat of a boon.

In short, polymorph is great, and if a monster is exclusively a bundle of movement modes, extraordinary attacks, and high physical ability scores, it shouldn't have a particularly high LA if it already has 5 or so racial HD. However, many of the monsters we're examining, including the Shator and Kelubar, are more than a bundle of movement modes, extraordinary attacks, and high physical ability scores.

[TiaC]

I just noticed that these [Evil] outsiders are "Often Neutral Evil". Don't think I've seen that on any outsider with an alignment subtype.

[Sutr]

Wild Shape Ranger is a solid tier 3 base class according to both the original tiering as well as the retiering project here on GitP; so using wild shape ranger/MoMF build, a barbarian/bear warrior build, primeval build or heck even barbarian/ runescared berserker build has polymorph by level 16. Also a gish that goes looses 4+ caster levels is also firmly in the tier 3 range and would have access to polymorph by level 12. Heck a rogue with a decent UMD has no problem using a polymorph wand and doing so isn't a horrible choice for wbl, not to mention chameleon... So Wild Shape and polymorph are fine to use as reference points for monsters above level 10.

To not use them is purposely nerfing monsters and over valuing abilities that shouldn't be. By Level ~12 it is easy enough to get high ability scores and natural armor that they are moot, EX special attacks are similarly easy to get without loosing any class levels that they have little value, even immunities are pretty straight forward to get. Special qualities and SU abilities still have some value since you have to jump through some hoops to get access to them.

All and all the way I see it is the availability of things like polymorph and wild shape makes it hard to get an LA above +0 at level 10+. That isn't to say these monsters aren't fine as +0 LA it is just saying they need something special to be above +0.

One could look at your reasoning though and claim if the game is about getting polymorph/wild shape maybe those abilities are broken, and that we shouldn't use broken things in our ratings. Especially if one build and 2 spells, polymorph and shapechange, are the only way to get similar numbers. I mean its not like the polymorph and wild shape rules didn't keep changing during 3.0-3.5's printing so the authors kept fiddling with it. They came up with the polymorph subschool in Players handbook 2 which lowers the power.

[Inevitability]

Kelubar:
+0: 3 votes
+1: 2 votes
+2: 1 vote

Shator:
-0: 1 vote
+0: 2 votes
+1: 2 votes
+2: 1 vote

Few votes, and not easily interpreted either.

Kelubar has an average vote of +0.667, a median vote of +0.5, and a modal vote of +0. Based on this, I think the current +0 is just slightly more fair than +1.

Shator has an average vote of +0.5, a median vote of +0.5, and no modal vote. I'll go with +1 here, which seems quite fair as it causes me to err on both the high and low sides. It's not a perfect way of judging, though, and I wish we'd gotten more responses.

[Inevitability]

Demon, Alkilith

Moving into slightly more Chaotic regions, we have the demons! First of them is the alkilith, a horrifying acid beast.

Alkiliths have 11 outsider RHD. Their stats are reasonable for a medium-sized creature (16/25/16/14/17/15), especially when you consider that with one more RHD they get a size increase to Large. +6 natural armor is a bit shabby, and four 1d8 slams are hardly the greatest natural weapons out there.

Special qualities are quite good: DR 15/good, immunity to acid, electricity, and poison, cold and fire resistance 10, and 100 ft. telepathy. They additionally get SR 23.

The alkilith also has some notable special attacks. Its slams all deal acid damage that continues for multiple turns, which would be pretty nifty if it didn't also risk destroying loot. Additionally, they can control nearby oozes (largely irrelevant at those levels, but flavorful), and get a 50%-probable hezrou summon per day.

Furthermore, alkiliths can assume the form of a toxic mist cloud (Gaseous Form that hits enveloped creatures with Cloudkill). Paradoxically, entering this form will probably make it more vulnerable to attack, as it loses its natural armor bonus and doesn't get extra DR (except against the rare Good non-magic attack). It's good as backup flight and offense, I guess.

Finally, there's some SLAs, and they're quite nifty. The 3/day abilities (Cone of Cold and Unholy Blight) are not all that impressive, but the at-will ones are varied and numerous (Contagion, Desecrate, Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, Enervation, Hold Monster, Magic Circle Against Good, Stinking Cloud, self-only Greater Teleport, Wall of Ice). Some of those are underwhelming for the level they're gained at, but others (Detect Magic, Hold Monster, Greater Teleport, Wall of Ice) definitely hold up.

On the one hand, the alkilith has a varied array of special abilities and a quite good chassis as well, especially with its size increased to Large. On the other hand, its magic abilities are not all that impressive, and I'm fairly sure it doesn't have hands (or, y'know, humanoid physiology of any kind).

+0 LA for now, interested in seeing the community's judgement.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'll go with +0 as well. They're a bit unfocused, but reasonable enough at t3 or t2, depending on how you rate the SLAs.

A recurring problem with racial SLAs is that they're rarely the best picks, which makes any comparison to casting classes difficult. You're either comparing to a suboptimal sorcerer, or to some kind of high-power warlock type. Still, I'm happy with alkilith in that t3-t2 transition zone.

As an aside, the art for the alkilith is dreadful.

[ViperMagnum357]

Do not forget about Amorphous, which grants (Ex) immunity to sleep, paralysis, stunning, polymorphing, critical hits, and cannot be flanked, even by high level Rogues. Overall, natural AC and net abilities are very low, but Outsider RHD and immunities bridge the gap. LA +0 from me.

[Efrate]

+0. I do not think i would play one but there is enough there.

[lord_khaine]

Hmm.. i cant go any lower than LA +2.
Their demon type just heaps to much stuff upon their plate.
Insane stats boosts. Elemental resistance. Telepathy for mindsight.
Smack a level of Swordsage on them and call it the day.

[danielxcutter]

They're CR 14, but honestly they feel more than a little overwhelming to justify that to me. Point-and-click Enervation is nice, though.

[Thurbane]

I was tied up with other things and didn't get to vote on the other two Demodands but I definitely want to vote on this guy:

• Medium Outsider (chaotic, evil, extraplanar) [wow, the FF really likes to have monsters that grow in size with 1 more HD]
• 11 outsider HD (all good saves, 8 skill points/level, full BAB)
• 40 ft move: OK.
• +6 natural AC: underwhelming at this level.
• 4 slams 1d8: OK for the right build.
• Acid: ongoing acid damage from natural attacks.
• Cloudkill form: pretty handy - become a cloud of toxic gas at will.
• SLAs: at will- contagion, desecrate, detect magic, dispel magic, enervation, hold monster, magic circle against good, stinking cloud, teleport without error (self plus maximum load of objects only), wall of ice; 3/day - cone of cold, unholy blight...that's a pretty decent set of SLAs. Mostly offensive, and some basically useless at your level, but still nice.
• Acid immunity: OK.
• Amorphous: whole bunch of immunities right there.
• Command ooze: inbuilt minionmancy. Better than the domain powers for commanding oozes, since it's unlimited uses. Also, a free action; and no HD limit mentioned.
• DR 15/good: fairly respectable.
• Immunities: here, have yet even more immunities and resistances; most are redundant with poison immunity, but still...
• Outsider traits - meh.
• SR 23 - OKish when you start, but quickly tapers off.
• Summon tanar’ri: 50% for 1 hezrou (CR 11; normally a Summon monster IX creature). At least you have an even chance of success.
• Tanar’ri traits: 100 ft telepathy, immune to electricity and poison, resist cold 20 and fire 20.
• Str +6, Dex +14, Con +6, Int +4, Wis +6, Cha +4: net +40, no penalties. That's pretty solid.
• OK-ish racial skill list - I've seen better, but also seen worse.

Ooze-like form and lack of any discernible hands will cause gear issues, and probably limit your class choices. No ability to speak mentioned (apart from telepathy), and no mouth as such.

Class progression? Melee bruiser with some utility, I guess. If you can get hands or some equivalent, maybe skillmonkey?

The good: solid ability mods with no penalties, full BAB/all good saves/8 skill points/level chassis, huge array of resistances and immunities, decent offensive options, decent to good SLAs, and ailbity to command oozes. The bad: 11 lost class levels, weird body shape, questionable ability to use weapons or other tools, can't innately vocalize.

Tentative LA +1 from me.

[Debatra]

This thing could be a pretty good Rogue, I think. Decent if not great skill list for it, eight skill points from the RHD, high Dex, four slam attacks that are just begging for some riders like sneak attack, and at-will Hold Monster to... well, a paralyzed creature can just be coup-de-graced anyway.

Biggest problem is the ever-troublesome anatomy, or here the complete lack thereof. If not for that, I'd say a decent +1. As-is however, I'm gonna say +0. Maybe even a strong -0. Even a basic non-humanoid anatomy would probably bring it back up to +1.

The bad: 11 lost class levels, weird body shape, questionable ability to use weapons or other tools, can't innately vocalize.

While that would more or less prevent it from being a spellcaster, I'd say the telepathy more than makes up for it in the communication department.

[TiaC]

Command Ooze is potentially problematic, as there's nothing stopping you from using it multiple times a round until all oozes fail the save.

The SLAs use the wrong DC formula, so they have DCs 5 higher than they should be.

Acid can destroy treasure, so that's not great.

[Caelestion]

Clearly a martial type, though they could go psionic in a pinch. As such, easily LA +1 from me.

[Netbrian]

I would vote +0. It feels like it would start off strong, but would be hard to synergize with class levels to stay relevant.

Maybe if you can get Control Ooze to work on Juiblex.

[Sutr]

+2, but I think it could use most equipment though it might need a spell to get the hardness over 6.

[Inevitability]

+0: 5 votes
+1: 2 votes
+2: 2 votes

Absolute majority favors +0, so that it will remain. Next monster will be up soon.

[Inevitability]

Demon, Blood Fiend

'Vampire demon' sounds like a 15-year-olds deviantart oc, but apparently it's a D&D monster.

In further defiance of the idea that 'demon' is a consistent category, blood fiends are undead (12 HD) and seemingly lack the tanar'ri, evil, and chaotic subtypes. Their ability scores are pretty nice, with +16 strength, +4 dexterity, +6 intelligence, and +10 wisdom and charisma. Large size is nice, 40 ft. land and 80 ft. fly speeds are nothing to complain about.

Blood fiends have two natural claw attacks that apply negative levels, as well as a natural bite that drains blood (1d4 constitution). DR 15/good is useful, resistance 20 to acid/cold/fire is as well, fast healing 5 is great and turn resistance +6 has its occasional uses. 24 SR is a mixed bag, as always, but probably net positive.

Special abilities are about what you'd expect of a vampire. There's the standard-action Dominate Monster (very spammable), at-will Gaseous Form (mostly obsolete by now), Create Spawn (doesn't offer control, and only works on evil outsiders, so mostly irrelevant), and of course alternate form.

The latter is confusing. It allows the blood fiend to assume the form of a fiendish dire bat, fiendish dire wolf, howler, or nightmare, and also notes it gains 'the exceptional abilities of the form assumed'. Presumably, this is meant to say extraordinary abilities, which alternate form didn't grant back in 3.0, but if it refers to special attacks as a whole then the nightmare form makes this insanely broken. For the sake of reasonableness, I'll assume this just works as normal 3.5 alternate form (which grants extraordinary abilities anyway). It's still broken if Assume Supernatural Ability is on the table, but that's not the blood fiend's fault.

Finally, SLAs! At-will Detect Good, Detect Magic, and self-only Greater Teleport are all useful. 3/day Chaos Hammer, Darkness, and Unholy Blight are less notable. 1/day Blasphemy and Desecrate are okay. It's a bit disappointing how a monster supposed to hunt other evil outsiders has so many spells that flat-out don't work against those.

Anyway: I'm not sure what to think of this monster. 12 undead HD suck, but the chassis is quite good and the at-will dominate spam is amazing. The melee attacks are less useful but still relevant in a pinch, and the SLAs are niche but not useless.

I'm going to go with +0 LA as a starting point, tending towards +1. Do discuss!

[ViperMagnum357]

12 Undead RHD are genuinely terrible, and this really doesn't have anywhere to go except natural attacks blender with at-will Dominate. You get a lot of nice things; net abilities at +46 are just under acceptable for 12 RHD, and +20 natural AC is way over curve. You are Undead with Turn Resistance, Fast Healing, at-will Teleport, perfect flight, and have an escape hatch in Gaseous Form; but those are things a player wants to pick up in addition to their build, not in replacement of it.

Your actual class features are Dominate plus a natural attack routine that deals energy drain and constitution drain: and starting out 12 levels deep leaves little room for growth before the system breaks around ECL 17-18.

I am tentatively agreeing with LA +0, because I think it could kind of compete with martial builds. I am not all that impressed by Dominate effects, even (Su), since they are so action intensive and can get scrubbed by a first level touch spell on most lists for the duration of a combat encounter.

[danielxcutter]

Odd. No sunlight vulnerability I see.

[Netbrian]

+0 sounds fine to me. I imagine a lot rides how good Dominate is in your campaign.

[Lapak]

Your actual class features are Dominate plus a natural attack routine that deals energy drain and constitution drain: and starting out 12 levels deep leaves little room for growth before the system breaks around ECL 17-18.

I am tentatively agreeing with LA +0, because I think it could kind of compete with martial builds. I am not all that impressed by Dominate effects, even (Su), since they are so action intensive and can get scrubbed by a first level touch spell on most lists for the duration of a combat encounter.

I agree with +0. As riders go, negative levels and CON drain are pretty good and it has strong enough base stats to make up for some of what it loses with those terrible HD, while its SLAs and special abilities give it SOME out-of-combat uses. Mostly in terms of scouting and information-gathering, but it should be pretty solid at those. It's an acceptable choice for a natural-weapons-focused melee build, and it will only fall out of relevance when everything in that model does.

[Efrate]

+0. I think there is enough here. You are locked into a blender or a beatstick at best but you do a serviceable job at it. Dominate is potentially game breaker but has a giant asterisk on it as always but it's on a pretty good chasis.

[Mystic Muse]

+0 from me. What it has is cool, but the 12 racial HD are enough of a price.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The art also looks like a fifteen-year-old's first contribution on DeviantArt...

It's basically a minionmancer, with the ability to dominate and bring along number of useful NPCs, and, if you invest in the ability to control blood fiends, the ability to turn weak NPCs into blood fiends. As such, it's in the same league as beguilers, sorcerers, and the like. I think it holds up alright, because at the end of the day, there are lots of NPCs and monsters that remain vulnerable to dominate and energy drain, CL 18 on dominate is very good, and the blood fiend's appalling hit dice don't matter so much when your minions are doing the fighting anyway. Edit: +0.

Tangentially related question: What's the highest effective turning level you could bolt onto a blood fiend with one class level?

[Thurbane]

• Large Undead (with reach)
• 12 RHD (poor BAB, 1 good save, 4 skill points/level): really not ideal for a melee type.
• Speed 40 ft, fly 80ft perfect: very nice indeed.
• +20 natural AC: solid.
• 4 claws 1d6 (plus energy drain), bite 1d8 (plus Con damage): nice.
• Blood drain: nice rider effect on bites.
• Domination: at will dominate monster CL 18 isn't half bad. Sure, you run up against immunities, but you'll encounter a lot of melee brutes who don't have defences.
• Energy drain: no limit on the number per round that I can see. Sweet!
• SLAs: at will - detect good, detect magic, teleport without error (self plus maximum load of objects only); 3/day - chaos hammer, darkness, unholy blight; 1/day - blasphemy, desecrate; bit of a mixed bag, ranging from useless to good. At will teleport, even if its only for yourself and gear, is pretty good.
• Acid resistance 20, cold resistance 20, fire resistance 20, electricity immunity: decent.
• Alternate form: badly worded, but handy even if it works like regular 3.5 alternate form.
• Create spawn: pretty situational compared to a regular vamp.
• DR 15/good: decent.
• Fast healing 5: I love fast healing of any type.
• Gaseous form: can be handy, but not amazing at this level of play.
• SR 24: OKish, but quickly tapers away.
• Turn resistance +6: decent for any undead.
• Undead traits: all of the usual juicy immunities, and the handful of drawbacks.
• Str +16, Dex +4, Con --, Int +6, Wis +10, Cha +10: net +46, one non-ability, and no penalties. Pretty great if you can build around no Con score. [edit] Fixed error - still think this is a pretty good set of numbers. Weird that a vamp-type doesn't have higher Dex [/edit]
• Decent racial skill list: focused on stealth, perception and "face" skills. +8 racial bonus to Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.
• Unlike regular vamps, you don't get a boatload of bonus feats.

Large humanoid(ish) in form, and can speak. Should be no real issues with gear, casting or anything else (other than lost levels from RHD).

Melee bruiser/natural attacker is obvious class progression, to me anyway. -6 BAB hurts, but you're getting 5 natural attacks to compensate for the iteratives.

Bit of a hard one for me to rate. I'm going LA +1, but I could also see LA +0 or LA +2 being appropriate.