Subtle dig at godless clerics

[Emanick]

I wonder if part of this "correctly unfolding plot" means Gontor will be instantly resurrected using the staff, and then directed to attack other Godsmoot/Creed members. While HPoH cannot break the rules without (presumably) incurring the wrath of the gods, what are the consequences for the administrators who break the rules? A vampirized Gontor would presumably still be godless, and perhaps subject to different rules. And I guess since he was vampirized, he wouldn't be an administrator anymore, either.

I suspect that "ordering somebody else to attack the Godsmoot" counts as attacking the Godsmoot, and is banned by the rules of the gathering. Whether or not the HPoH can get away with it is another matter altogether.

[Snails]

So that's how it works in Planescape. It also means that if a "non-theistic" cleric was to choose a cause so abstract and unpopular, there wasn't enough of a network behind it, they wouldn't get spells. Only popular causes could have powerful clerics.

Well, yes. Or you might be capped at the spells you can get, or where they might work. "Good" and "The Green" are certainly powerful enough causes with wide reach. But "Vengeance" may or may not be. "Fangorn Forest" might work well at low levels, or, perhaps, even better than the standard gods, because there are a few powerful "angesl" right there in your forest they might randomly show up and smite your enemies.

[The Giant]

So that's how it works in Planescape. It also means that if a "non-theistic" cleric was to choose a cause so abstract and unpopular, there wasn't enough of a network behind it, they wouldn't get spells. Only popular causes could have powerful clerics.

This is modeled by the fact that there is a fixed set of domains that you can choose from. Those are the philosophies for which there is a functioning "market" and anything more obscure is just out of luck.

[littlebum2002]

I suspect that "ordering somebody else to attack the Godsmoot" counts as attacking the Godsmoot, and is banned by the rules of the gathering. Whether or not the HPoH can get away with it is another matter altogether.

Agreed. Since summoning, calling, etc. is part of the standard Cleric repertoire, I'd imagine they wouldn't ignore such a large loophole that would allow a Cleric to legally summon monsters to wipe out the whole moot.

Also,

A vampirized Gontor would presumably still be godless

Why? When Durkon was vamped he didn't still worship Thor.

[137beth]

You are reaching.

First, I had no idea that choosing a deity or not was even an optimization issue. This is a thing people worry about? News to me.

Second, these days I spend exactly zero percent of my time thinking about stuff like how to dictate to people how they should play a game that stopped being published seven years ago. Maybe, if I think I can squeeze a joke out of it, I can peer back through the mists of time and try to remember how people used to play 3.5 back when I played it and think of something funny, once in a while. But as a serious theme in a humor-free page? Who cares that much? Play the game however you want to play it. There is more important thematic ground in this world for me to cover than whether or not people powergame.

I just don't care that much anymore about how people play games in their own living room; I'm not sure I ever did except as either a gag or a riposte to folks complaining about my writing because I let the fighter win sometimes.

Gontor is a non-theistic cleric because I needed him to be a non-theistic cleric for the plot to unfold correctly. That's it.

To be fair, I frequent optimization forums and regularly play 3.5 in spite of the publications of more recent editions, and I didn't know it was a thing people complained about. I doubt you are alone in your surprise.

This is modeled by the fact that there is a fixed set of domains that you can choose from. Those are the philosophies for which there is a functioning "market" and anything more obscure is just out of luck.

Hmm, interesting way of handling divine magic. I do it in a way I think is simpler (though that not everyone likes): divine magic is powered by belief and practice, period. Following a god of pantheon doesn't mean that that god or pantheon grants a cleric power, it just means that their tenants guide the way the cleric thinks and acts.
My way of doing it removes the possibility of clerics 'falling' unless they believe they have fallen.

[Vovix]

This is how I have always understood it (and keep in mind this is a basic D&D answer, and not a statement about OOTS per se):

On the most basic level, the substance of D&D multiverse is able to be shaped by personal belief. This is one of the main tenets of the Planescape setting, where planar locations shift around based on the moral leanings of the population. Most mortals don't have enough belief to really accomplish anything on their own, though, but the gods do. So mortals become clerics of a god, and their devotion to the god allows the god to funnel that belief-power back to them in the form of concrete magical effects. The gods aren't really the source of the power as much as they are the catalyst to convert it into something useful. They can tinker with the power in the process, by dictating spells or withholding power or what have you.

Non-theistic clerics get their spells from a wide distributed network of beings with similar philosophies who can act as catalysts for the cleric—but because these are not centralized, none of them can exercise "veto power" over the cleric, nor is the cleric required to acknowledge their dominance (or even their existence). In Gontor's case, it may be that a powerful Earth Elemental is granting him his spells, but it could be a different one each day, or even some spells from one and some from another. If any of those elementals decide they don't like what he's doing with his magic, he just gets his spells from someone else that day. He may even be entirely oblivious to which elemental provides his spells at any point, and therefore is under no obligation to any of them. Unfortunately, that also means that no single elemental is going to be invested enough in Gontor to care what happens to him.

Analogy time! Regular clerics have an employer-employee relationship, where the employer (god) consumes the work (prayer) that the employee (cleric) generates and in return provides them with compensation (spells), where that compensation is actually generated by the work being done by the entire company (church). A non-theistic cleric is more like a freelance writer; they perform the work (believe in a philosophy) that they feel is right for them, and then sell that work to whatever client (quasi-deific elemental beings) is willing to pay (provide spells) for it. The freelancer has more flexibility than the employee to do as they wish, but they also do not have many benefits of steady employment.

So, it's a Peer-to-Peer divine magic system?

[factotum]

So, it's a Peer-to-Peer divine magic system?

A "witch-torrent", maybe?

[Bulldog Psion]

A "witch-torrent", maybe?

Wow ... that pun is rough stuff, good sir. Great work!

[Fitzclowningham]

As for the different treatment of the godless clerics at the godsmoot, it makes perfect sense. The gods are meeting on neutral ground to decide the fate of the world. Whatever elemental or other force powers the godless clerics, it isn't a person that can have opinions or make decisions. Gontor's position that the godless clerics should have a say in the godsmoot is nonsensical. No clerics have any say in the godsmoot; that is reserved for gods, which they don't have. It isn't discrimination against them because the other clerics don't have any voice in the procedings, either. They are merely conduits of the gods' decisions.

Since the gods need their conduits to be in good condition in order to serve their purpose, it makes sense that there be rules against anything that could harm them. Given the history of emnity between the pantheons and between the gods within them, some kind of DMZ to protect them is a necessary condition for the 'moot to work at all. These same rules don't apply to the godless clerics because they don't have anything to do with the functioning of the meeting.

It seems to me that the presence of the elemental earthers arose out of convenience: they are probably the best stoneworkers on the prime material, and the 'moot needed a cathedral. I don't know that being a divine caster is a necessary prerequisite to act as an usher in the 'moot.

[factotum]

Gontor's position that the godless clerics should have a say in the godsmoot is nonsensical. No clerics have any say in the godsmoot; that is reserved for gods, which they don't have. It isn't discrimination against them because the other clerics don't have any voice in the procedings, either.

Yeah, but at the time Gontor posted that position, it wasn't obvious that this meeting was for the Gods--everyone thought it was a meeting of the God's clerics to decide what to do. It's only in subsequent strips that the whole "this is all the Gods, the clerics are only acting as proxies" has become clear.

[Keltest]

Yeah, but at the time Gontor posted that position, it wasn't obvious that this meeting was for the Gods--everyone thought it was a meeting of the God's clerics to decide what to do. It's only in subsequent strips that the whole "this is all the Gods, the clerics are only acting as proxies" has become clear.

In retrospect, with a name like "Godmoot", we really should have figured it out earlier.

[Fitzclowningham]

Yeah, but at the time Gontor posted that position, it wasn't obvious that this meeting was for the Gods--everyone thought it was a meeting of the God's clerics to decide what to do. It's only in subsequent strips that the whole "this is all the Gods, the clerics are only acting as proxies" has become clear.

It's possible that Gontor didn't know this, as this is probably the first time his group has acted in this capacity for a godsmoot. However, godsmoots have happened before. Wrecan knew what would happen and how it works, with the gods making a collective decision without clerical input. Also, Gontor indicates that the lack of input from godless clerics has been an ongoing issue with godsmoots - maybe he is of the opinion that they, alone of mortals, should have a vote? It still doesn't make sense to me.

[Stray]

It's possible that Gontor didn't know this, as this is probably the first time his group has acted in this capacity for a godsmoot. However, godsmoots have happened before. Wrecan knew what would happen and how it works, with the gods making a collective decision without clerical input. Also, Gontor indicates that the lack of input from godless clerics has been an ongoing issue with godsmoots - maybe he is of the opinion that they, alone of mortals, should have a vote? It still doesn't make sense to me.

Wrecan doesn't know that gods take no input from mortals, since he is convinced Roy's speech can convince them. Gontor could have believed that elemental force he worships was able to channel it's opinion through him (part of believing in something in general) or that a method for including non-theistic religions could be implemented by the gods (he wanted Hel to raise the issue on his behalf and didn't think he could talk directly to Odin during the moot).

[Bulldog Psion]

It's possible that Gontor didn't know this, as this is probably the first time his group has acted in this capacity for a godsmoot. However, godsmoots have happened before. Wrecan knew what would happen and how it works, with the gods making a collective decision without clerical input. Also, Gontor indicates that the lack of input from godless clerics has been an ongoing issue with godsmoots - maybe he is of the opinion that they, alone of mortals, should have a vote? It still doesn't make sense to me.

Most godsmoots probably aren't this all-or-nothing, so to speak. The typical ones may well just be a bunch of priests engaging in political chin music. The gods probably only manifest in extreme circumstances.

That would be my guess, anyway.

[Kantaki]

Most godsmoots probably aren't this all-or-nothing, so to speak. The typical ones may well just be a bunch of priests engaging in political chin music. The gods probably only manifest in extreme circumstances.

That would be my guess, anyway.

I think that the „mundane” politics of the godsmoot are part of the rituals and the other stuff that was skipped this time because of the urgency of the moots topic. Well, and because letting the funny little guys talk about mortal politics would be rather pointless (not to mention mean) if you end the game in a few minutes to start a new one.

That the gods make the big decisions by using their clerics as glorified telephones seems to be the norm, otherwise Wrecan or another bodyguard would have commented on it.

[Kish]

Veldrina didn't expect it; she thought the cleric was asking her a question.

[The Giant]

I think that the „mundane” politics of the godsmoot are part of the rituals and the other stuff that was skipped this time because of the urgency of the moots topic. Well, and because letting the funny little guys talk about mortal politics would be rather pointless (not to mention mean) if you end the game in a few minutes to start a new one.

That the gods make the big decisions by using their clerics as glorified telephones seems to be the norm, otherwise Wrecan or another bodyguard would have commented on it.

Yes, correct. While their priests may also use a Godsmoot as an opportunity to discuss mortal issues before and after the main ceremony, the purpose of the Godsmoot is to poll the gods. No Godsmoot is called unless the gods have at least one question they need to vote on.

Veldrina didn't expect it; she thought the cleric was asking her a question.

Veldrina has never served as a pantheon representative before, nor would she necessarily have ever seen a multi-pantheon vote. So she could understand that the gods speak through their high priests without necessarily knowing how she, personally, was supposed to relay those votes from the Western Pantheon.

Wrecan doesn't know that gods take no input from mortals, since he is convinced Roy's speech can convince them.

Wrecan is familiar with the rules and procedures, not necessarily the metaphysics. Remember, what Roy did was strictly frowned upon. If Wrecan's never seen someone outside the moot proper try to intercede before, he wouldn't know it couldn't work.

Gontor could have believed that elemental force he worships was able to channel it's opinion through him (part of believing in something in general) or that a method for including non-theistic religions could be implemented by the gods (he wanted Hel to raise the issue on his behalf and didn't think he could talk directly to Odin during the moot).

As I see it, Gontor would have thought that he could convey a consensus opinion from the lesser elemental beings that granted him spells. Sort of like a moot within a moot. He would argue that as quasi-divine beings, they deserve a say in what is decided. However, it is also possible that he has never actually been allowed to witness the Godsmoot and therefore his understanding of it is less than perfect.

[Quild]

What I doesn't get is why the gods need that Godsmoot to make their votes in a first place.

Can't they meet on their own plane or whatever? Crayons drawings are not necessarily what happened, but it seemed like they could communicate directly.
Here, they have a voice only if their High Priest is present? Hel never had a voice because she had no High Priest? (Technically, couldn't she have a lesser undead be her High Priest just long enough for a Godsmoot, even if he doesn't unlive long after that?).
Wouldn't have Western Pantheon's vote be lost if Veldrina couldn't make the trip in time? Same thing for Northern Pantheon and that other guy.

It's a weird way to do things.

[factotum]

What I doesn't get is why the gods need that Godsmoot to make their votes in a first place.

Can't they meet on their own plane or whatever?

I imagine this is another of the accords the Gods agreed to back when they built world #2--since they know that disagreements between them can literally birth god-killing abominations, best to ensure they don't get into a situation where Gods can have a direct argument between themselves. Holding a vote in this way ensures no fighting!

[Quild]

I imagine this is another of the accords the Gods agreed to back when they built world #2--since they know that disagreements between them can literally birth god-killing abominations, best to ensure they don't get into a situation where Gods can have a direct argument between themselves. Holding a vote in this way ensures no fighting!

That's actually a good point. Such vote avoids debate, which may be the purpose. Considering how Loki taunts Heimdall, gods may be fond of the "Well, that escalated quickly" meme.

Still odd how you get to have your vote or not.

[NerdyKris]

Factotum is right, Rich said as much in the comic discussion thread:

The gods do not have a neutral meeting ground—or rather they do, and this is it.

Also, gods of different pantheons do not meet in person anymore, lest any debates or squabbles turn into Snarl Jr.

[ClockShock]

Here, they have a voice only if their High Priest is present? Hel never had a voice because she had no High Priest?

That's a feature, not a bug.

[St Fan]

That's a feature, not a bug.

Indeed, Hel herself seems to think the way the Godsmoot is organized, with its dependency on a high priest's presence for the god to get a vote, is a ploy entirely aimed at denying her a voice. Loki is trying to argue it isn't the case, but hey, it's Loki... whether he tells the truth or not in the current circumstances is hard to tell without further insight, of course.