Star Trek Picard

[Peelee]

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ST writers tend to forget Remus exists a lot. I don't think there were any named Remans at all until the reboot movie.

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To be fair, ain't no city name Reme.

To be more fair, they really should research their own world they're writing for.

[Palanan]

This thread seems to be humming right along, and I'm hoping that means the first episode was good.

Do we know how many episodes are in the season? Because that'll be how many weeks until I can use their free-trial thingy.

[Peelee]

This thread seems to be humming right along, and I'm hoping that means the first episode was good.

Very good. This has a good chance of being my favorite Star Trek right off the bat.

[Ramza00]

Something that jumped out at me is...

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The interviewer referred to the Romulan sun going supernova. But wasn't it the Hobus sun that went supernova? Is that a retcon then? I mean, it does help cover the huge plot hole of how a star going supernova in an entirely different system could destroy Romulus, as the shockwave would take centuries to reach them even if it was moving at light speed...

Also, all that talk about all the Romulans that died, but not a single mention about the Remans. Remus was destroyed, too, after all.

Anyway, all that aside, I really enjoyed the episode.

Yes it is a retcon but it also makes sense.

Spoiler: Movie vs Novelization+Online Video Game+Comics vs now Picard

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Aka we are going to talk about what is "Canon" in the shows and movies vs "Non-Canon" in things like books / video games and so on. Also remember what is Canon is the final draft of the script that is filmed and not any precursor rough drafts of a movie.

In the 2009 Star Trek film we never hear the word "Hobus" all we hear is a star went supernova and it destroys Romulus (Remus is never mentioned.) We do not know what is the name of the Star and thus the viewer either does not care or they leap to a conclusion and assumes it is the star that Romulus orbits around.

But in texts outside the TV Show and outside the Movies we learn more details. In outside texts such as the Novelization of the Movie, the Star Trek online video game we learn the sun going supernova was not the star that Romulus and Remus orbit but instead Hobus. And when Hobus went supernova the supernova reverberated through subspace and thus was traveling at warp speeds faster than the speed of light. Aka fake Star Trek physics for Supernovas travel slower than the speed of light and thus are really only a danger to the star system they are in for once you get beyond the star system the damage is all spread out due to the cube rule of 3 dimensions, and it takes years for the near light speed supernova to reach stars that are several light-years away.

So why engage in Fake Star Trek Physics? If you make Romulus star going supernova you do not need to deal with this and in the Film it does not mention which star goes supernova?

The answer is trying to make the Villain Nero more interesting. So in the Novelization, Comics, and Online Video game there are all these side quests where Nero witnessed the Hobus star go supernova and that it was a weird supernova via his sensor readings. His ship was mining from a planet around Hobus looking for 3 fake elements one of them being the super-rare precursor for Red Matter. Vulcans had the tools to save the Romulans but the Romulans think it is a usual supernova nothing special. Stuff happens and eventually the Vulcans and Romulans can not cooperate but they came very close to cooperating due to Spock causing people to think beyond their baser instincts.

Nero gives Spock the Red Matter precursor and Spock using Vulcan tech makes the Red Matter. This only happens for Nero learns to trust Spock and believe he is a good person due to the many adventures of Spock and Nero after the Hobus supernova happened but prior to Romulus destruction. Yadda, Yadda, Yadda. Stuff happens. But the short of it is Nero is angry at many people and since Romulus was destroyed but Vulcan was saved in that other timeline Nero is going to do the opposite where Romulus is saved but Vulcan is destroyed. Nero wants to prevent the disaster that hurt his people, but he is also so full of pain that he wants others people to feel his pain and thus will make Spock suffer even though Spock tried his best to be the hero and Spock plus Nero worked together on the Red Matter plan.

(Aka this is all non-cannon lore that occurs in books, comics, online games and is not part of the original. This is why I indented all this non-cannon stuff. Aka things you find on Memory Beta wiki instead of Memory Alpha wiki.)

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But no matter what they did there was going to be at least one retcon of all this non-canon lore with the picard tv show. This is because Data lives in the non-canon stuff even though he was destroyed in the Star Trek Nemesis film. In both the Nemesis movie and the non-canon Data's memories were downloaded into his brother B4.

Well in the Non-Canon stuff happens and we find out Noonian Soong (Data's father) is still alive and he did not die in that TNG episode (Brothers 04x03) and Data's father is able to recreate Data from those memories stories in B4 and create Data a new body and brain. Data then becomes captain of the Enterprise-E (after Picard retires) and is involved with the whole Nero, Spock, Data, Worf incident involving does Romulus live or die in this non-canon work.

I am skipping a whole lot of detail for it is unnecessary and soon the Yadda Yadda Yadda becomes Blah Blah Blah.

Since Picard the TV Show was already going to modify Non-Canon it might as well remove other unnecessary and confusing threads such as Hobus star going supernova cause the destruction of other stars such as Romulus.

Remember people with fandoms.




This is why I am a fan of "Loose-Canon" when the Lore becomes so long and disorganized it is up to the reader and not the author to find meaning in the lore, else all these memories are just wasted data. It is the meaning itself that brings order to this data and causes it to be more than just electrons and protons flying around in our brain.

[Hands_Of_Blue]

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To be fair, ain't no city name Reme.

To be more fair, they really should research their own world they're writing for.

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It is possible that since it is called the Romulan Star Empire that Romulan is used as a catch all term for anyone living in the empire as well as being the name of a singular species. Like how anyone born in the USA is an American no matter where their genetic ancestry hails from.

I was going to use the example of people from the Federation being called Feds, but I can't remember if they actually ever used the term Feds in the shows.

[Rodin]

Interesting stuff about the canon there, I didn't know quite a bit of that because I've only been exposed to the films/TV shows - and not even all of the TV shows at that.

My conclusion is that we're overthinking this.

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Data's step-mom doesn't get mentioned because she's an unnecessary complication that most people won't remember. I didn't, and I've seen that episode enough times to remember the whole plot of it (once reminded that the episode exists). Data having a secret android mom is just not something I think about. The plot needs Data to be gone, so she functionally doesn't exist for the purposes of this story. I'm fine with that, especially returning to the timeline for the first time in over a decade.

The same is true of the Remans. They were invented for the movie Nemesis, because they needed a scary new alien race. There are no named Reman characters in canon. Other than Nemesis, they only appear in two episodes of Enterprise. So why bring them up? They were a terrible idea from a terrible movie.

This goes back to what I was saying in the Star Wars thread about demanding too much of your audience. When doing a spinoff series (or movie), you want to keep the amount of information required to understand what is going on to a minimum. In the case of Picard, a fair amount of knowledge about The Next Generation is already required. Knowledge from Star Trek XI is needed. And knowledge from Star Trek Nemesis is required, since that is where Data died.

So, the show has tried to simplify things as much as possible. A third android that only appeared in a single episode of TNG? Gone. Remans? Gone. Hobus blowing up Romulus through a subspace shockwave? Gone.

Instead, it tells us flat out what we need to know from the ancillary source material. The Romulan sun went supernova, and Picard tried to help. Data died saving Picard's life - no further information needed. B4 is brought up solely to put the kaibosh on long-running fan theories - he was a failed prototype and Data could not be downloaded into him.

They've tried to make it as easy as possible for new people to get into a sequel to a thirty year old TV show. I appreciate their efforts in this regard.

[JadedDM]

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ST writers tend to forget Remus exists a lot. I don't think there were any named Remans at all until the reboot movie.

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Just seems like an odd oversight, since they were introduced in Nemesis, and this show seems a pretty direct sequel of that film in particular.

Do we know how many episodes are in the season? Because that'll be how many weeks until I can use their free-trial thingy.

There are 10 episodes. Season 2 will have 10 episodes, as well.

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It is possible that since it is called the Romulan Star Empire that Romulan is used as a catch all term for anyone living in the empire as well as being the name of a singular species.

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That thought did occur to me, as well. If that is the case, hopefully we'll see some Remans at some point, too. I'm quite interested in what became of them, because they were essentially a slave race and now that Romulus and Remus are destroyed, I'm curious as if they are now free.

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In the 2009 Star Trek film we never hear the word "Hobus" all we hear is a star went supernova and it destroys Romulus (Remus is never mentioned.) We do not know what is the name of the Star and thus the viewer either does not care or they leap to a conclusion and assumes it is the star that Romulus orbits around.

Spoiler: Supernova

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Ah, okay...interesting. I didn't realize the film never mentioned which star went supernova. I only saw it once, when it first came out in theaters, and then never again, so my memory is fuzzy. I know of the name Hobus from Star Trek Online, and just assumed they got that name from the movie.

So technically it's not a retcon, since it was never officially stated.

I think having the Romulus star go supernova makes much more sense, since Hobus was (if I'm remembering correctly) on the very edge of the Romulan Star Empire, so having it somehow destroy the homeworld was fairly ridiculous.

[Droid Tony]

The thing is: Why make a show simple and easy just for the non fans?

Sure there are some Ma and Pa Kettle types that might sit down and hit the wrong button and watch the show. And there are tons of young and cool and hip folks that...well, if they are not out at a club or something, might trip and select the show. And all these people won't get or understand anything much more then it's one of them ''space shows".

The 54% of the folks that ARE Trek fans are going to get at least 75% of the things and refrences. It's part of being a FAN. Star Trek is a complcated show. Picard mentions an event from real history: well you either know about the event, saw the movie or your clueless. But the show does not stop and tell you anything.

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Lore was '' disassembled", but after that....was he destroyed? We don't know. You'd think they would not obliterate that technology.

Also...well...is not Lore (and Data) a sentient being? Can they just kill him?

After all it would be....What a Twist...if ''Data's daughter was in fact grown from LORE's magic cell....not Data's. Or maybe that IS why all Synthetics ARE Twins: one Data type and one Lore type in each set. Hummm.

[JadedDM]

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Lore was '' disassembled", but after that....was he destroyed? We don't know. You'd think they would not obliterate that technology.

Also...well...is not Lore (and Data) a sentient being? Can they just kill him?

After all it would be....What a Twist...if ''Data's daughter was in fact grown from LORE's magic cell....not Data's. Or maybe that IS why all Synthetics ARE Twins: one Data type and one Lore type in each set. Hummm.

Honestly, that would make a lot of sense.

Spoiler: Androids

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They've already established that making a flesh and blood android would be fairly easy if they had access to Data's positronic brain, but they don't. They make a point that B4 is a dead-end there. So how did Dahj and Soji come into existence? The idea that Maddox used Lore's brain really adds up.

[Kitten Champion]

Really hard to judge after an episode, but this may be the only Star Trek thing I've genuinely liked since DS9. It's a show which knows its star is nearly 80, so it's going to focus on solving a mystery and, to it's credit, it's created one that I'm curious to follow. At least, a mystery premised on Picard as a character rather than the general TOS movie strategy of "we need to get Kirk to captain a starship to save the galaxy again because everyone else in Star Fleet is deeply incompetent".

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I think the ending shot with the Borg Cube suggests quite a bit as plausible. The Borg are likely dead in their totality they're not going to suggest the end of Voyager was merely a setback they'll recover from, and If we consider Maddox as a Doctor Soong-wannabe with the same degree of zealotry in the field of cybernetics him digging through the Borg's remains makes an abundance of logical sense for his character especially after being stymied by Star Fleet.

This would dramatically expedite the knowledge of cybernetics and synthetic biology for obvious reasons, and there's also the fact that Data has been connected to the collective at least once - in Best of Both Worlds - which opens that as a possible explanation for where his consciousness could be adapted from.

Though, yeah, Lore being involved somehow does seem like the kind of twist that would work well for this show and makes sense.

Other than that, really like the overall design. They've made the world feel more real with lighter touches of CGI integrated into their general actions. It doesn't feel TV-set-ish like most of old Trek was relegated to and they aren't overdoing the lighting effects like Abrams which make you feel as though he wants you to constantly know you're watching something cinematic. Even things like the transporter are toned down. It's... unobtrusive, basically.

[JadedDM]

Something I've decided to chart while watching this series is just how much it completely screws up the storyline of Star Trek Online. STO was originally released back when Star Trek was still dead, so they had a lot of freedom in making up whatever new storylines they wanted to. The first two seasons of Discovery took place in the past, so they really didn't have any affect on things, but PIC takes place very close to STO (PIC is 2399 while STO takes place in 2409-2410). So I figure they are going to conflict and I guess the writers at STO are going to have to retcon some stuff or just decide their game takes place in an alternate universe (probably the former, as they've done it before; entire episodes and even storylines have been removed or changed up; to this day I'll go back and play an old episode and find something new they've added or changed).

So from S01E01, Remembrance, here we go:

Things that PIC contradicts STO on:

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01. The Romulan star goes supernova, not the Hobus star. This isn't too terribly large of a change, really. They could probably just rewrite the missions that involve Hobus to involve the remains of Romulus instead.
02. Data is definitely still dead. In STO, Data was restored to life via B4 and rejoined Starfleet. However, he has only appeared in the game once, and only the back of his head during a cutscene (and they never explicitly said it was Data, but it was clear the audience was meant to infer that). This is because they do not have the rights to Brent Spiner's likeness, as Spiner himself has specifically stated he believes Data should stay dead. So if they cut that one scene, they should be fine (although it is a shame, because I rather like it, even if we never see his face).
03. There's a ban on all androids, but in STO they still exist and you can even get some NPC ones in your crew. Although since STO takes place 10-11 years later, it's possible the ban will be lifted by then.
04. Picard retired too early and out of protest from Starfleet's actions. In STO, Picard is still retired, but he didn't do so until 2402 and it wasn't out of any kind of protest. As Picard himself has never appeared in STO in any way, this should be easy enough to fix, they just need to rewrite some of the codex stuff.

Things that PIC actually confirms from STO:

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01. The Romulans are working with Borg tech. This was a storyline in the game, where the Tal-Shiar were doing secret experiments on Borg tech in an attempt to restore the Romulan Star Empire's place as a super power in the galaxy. Now we don't know yet in PIC if the Romulans we saw are Tal-Shiar, independent scientists, or what. But suffice to say, this project did not work out well for the Romulans in STO and I suspect it may blow up in their faces in PIC, too.

Things that probably won't be in PIC from STO, but I hope they are:

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01. The Romulan Republic being a thing. Especially the idea of D'Tan leading it and founding a New Romulus to build a new life along with the Remans.
02. Sela declaring herself Empress. And the heroes being forced to work with her against a common enemy. Denise Crosby loves playing the character, and having to put up with Sela's backstabbing shenanigans is one of the more fun parts of STO for me.
03. Obisek, or someone like him, leading the Remans to freedom. Likewise, Tiaru Jarok (daughter of Alidar Jarok) would be a cool character to introduce. I like both of those characters quite a bit, but I doubt they'll ever be made canon.

[Droid Tony]

Spoiler: History and Tech

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Star Trek has a weird history with robots and Artificial Intelligence.

First off, they often confuse the two as being exactly the same thing. They often make it sound like a humanoid robot MUST have human intelligence, for some reason.

First off making a human looking robot should not be hard by the 24th century. That is all just pure making a physical shell. So any Federation Factory should have no problem making like 100 Data looking robots a second. And yet, nowhere in the Federation do we see a single humanoid robot.

Er, of course, we never see non humanoid robots either...and that is sort of odd.

Now the second part...Atrificial Intelligence...is a bit harder and the ''just like a human" is even a bit more harder.....BUT, it's not really some impossible thing. It's just programing.

Way back in the OS we see a ''near human" Artificial Intelligence: M-5. It ''dies", and we guess the Federation puts some sort of Ban on AI....even though that makes no sense.

The Constustion Enterprise's computer is as dumb as a rock......but by the time we get to the Enterprise D the computer is, er, well maybe as smart as a dog?

By Voyager though, we have the Emergency Medical Hologram. And once you take away the hologram part, ahem, they are fully functioning just like human AI. But...umm...everyone ignores this.

So what is exactly the reason they can't bulid a robot human and give it a ''holographic" AI?

[JadedDM]

Spoiler: History and Tech

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Star Trek has a weird history with robots and Artificial Intelligence.

First off, they often confuse the two as being exactly the same thing. They often make it sound like a humanoid robot MUST have human intelligence, for some reason.

First off making a human looking robot should not be hard by the 24th century. That is all just pure making a physical shell. So any Federation Factory should have no problem making like 100 Data looking robots a second. And yet, nowhere in the Federation do we see a single humanoid robot.

Er, of course, we never see non humanoid robots either...and that is sort of odd.

Now the second part...Atrificial Intelligence...is a bit harder and the ''just like a human" is even a bit more harder.....BUT, it's not really some impossible thing. It's just programing.

Way back in the OS we see a ''near human" Artificial Intelligence: M-5. It ''dies", and we guess the Federation puts some sort of Ban on AI....even though that makes no sense.

The Constustion Enterprise's computer is as dumb as a rock......but by the time we get to the Enterprise D the computer is, er, well maybe as smart as a dog?

By Voyager though, we have the Emergency Medical Hologram. And once you take away the hologram part, ahem, they are fully functioning just like human AI. But...umm...everyone ignores this.

So what is exactly the reason they can't bulid a robot human and give it a ''holographic" AI?

Yeah, there were a couple of things related to that that confused me a bit.

Spoiler: Synths

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First, why do they keep calling androids 'synths?' They keep saying synths have been banned, but they seem to mean androids. But we see holograms are still allowed, and wouldn't they be classified as synthetic lifeforms, too?

Second, why ban androids and not holograms, too? Are they not worried holograms might 'go rogue' as well?

[Kitten Champion]

Yeah, there were a couple of things related to that that confused me a bit.

Spoiler: Synths

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First, why do they keep calling androids 'synths?' They keep saying synths have been banned, but they seem to mean androids. But we see holograms are still allowed, and wouldn't they be classified as synthetic lifeforms, too?

Second, why ban androids and not holograms, too? Are they not worried holograms might 'go rogue' as well?

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Presumably they mean synthetic life forms with sapience and personal agency such as Data or the Doctor, that hologram was little more than a terminal to interact with in the same manner as the Enterprise's computer. So, standard NPC holograms good, Moriarty-esque self-aware holograms bad.

They've essentially replicated the standards of the Mass Effect universe at least insofar as practical development of AI goes, and are acting in roughly the same hyper-conservative fashion they've been with genetic engineering.

[Yora]

Star Trek always had this weird thing going where the Federation is an utopian post-scarcity society based on hyper-advanced technology, but is generally afraid of new technologies and praises honest physical work above everything, and mythologizes constant struggle as the true essence of humanity.

Do they want to have comfort and security or not? Usually it's whatever creates more drama in this week's episode, but overall the tendency seems to lean strongly towards no.

[Kitten Champion]

Star Trek always had this weird thing going where the Federation is an utopian post-scarcity society based on hyper-advanced technology, but is generally afraid of new technologies and praises honest physical work above everything, and mythologizes constant struggle as the true essence of humanity.

Do they want to have comfort and security or not? Usually it's whatever creates more drama in this week's episode, but overall the tendency seems to lean strongly towards no.

I would say they have a very humanistic perspective on the universe. A core concept where their whole civilization is about affirming a particular narrow view of humanity to maximize its potential and comfort and discourage anything that alienates that. The big ones being cybernetic or genetic augmentation. Obviously represented by Khan or the Borg respectively.

Aliens - any of your rubber-foreheaded variety - are essentially treated as humans too in all moral aspects. Though they're typically stand-ins for other countries, historical civilizations, and contemporary racial boundaries they're still just humans underneath.

Star Trek isn't anti-science... most of the time, at least. Science exists as an affirmation of the best aspects of humanity in the Roddenberry sense, but wishing to be more than what you are naturally and using science to accomplish it is questionable at best and calamitous at worst. This is particularly beneficial for the show on a meta-level as to why these people are out there exploring and aren't too different from ourselves despite the fantabulous magical science they run into daily that there was no Singularity Event as to fundamentally change them.

[Hands_Of_Blue]

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They've essentially replicated the standards of the Mass Effect universe at least insofar as practical development of AI goes, and are acting in roughly the same hyper-conservative fashion they've been with genetic engineering.

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Speaking of the ban on genetic engineering, if the ban on creation of synthetics hadn't happened, wouldn't a purely bio-synthetic android have still been illegal because of the ban on genetic engineering? I just don't see much functional difference between a genetically engineered super soldier like Khan and the Augments versus a bio-synthetic android super soldier.

[JadedDM]

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Presumably they mean synthetic life forms with sapience and personal agency such as Data or the Doctor, that hologram was little more than a terminal to interact with in the same manner as the Enterprise's computer.

Spoiler: Holograms

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I'm not so sure. The hologram made a joke and even said they 'were trying out humor.' That sounds a bit more advanced. Not sure if it's a sign of sapience, but it sure looked like it.

[Rodin]

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I'm not so sure. The hologram made a joke and even said they 'were trying out humor.' That sounds a bit more advanced. Not sure if it's a sign of sapience, but it sure looked like it.

Spoiler: Synthetic life

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I mean, this is the universe where the Enterprise-D spontaneously had a baby. And that's 30 years prior to the current tech level!

[Droid Tony]

Spoiler: History and Tech 2

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We see all Holograms in Star Trek Voyager as having sapience. Even the EMH mark 1 counts, you know when every good Starfleet is not bullying them as they are just a ''dumb pocket caculator".

Sure, Voyager has a line where someone says ''oh we added programs to the Doctor" to make him a person/character/just like a living being. But it sure was easy? Guess someone on Voyager just wrote a Life AI program on a napkin or something.

And the other holgram people we see, like the EMH mark 2 and Haley (Doc Zimmermans assistant) sure seem very life/human like.

One really wonders what happened to Doc from Voyager. Did he start a whole ''Photons be Free" movement? It's not like Starfleet would have tons of holographic SLAVES, right?

But oddly Star Trek seems to speperate ''Holo AI" from "Robot AI", but that just makes no sense.

And ok....so ''synthics" are ONLY androids or some reason....well, are they ''people"? Do they have rights?

[Traab]

From what I understand, the emh mark 1 was supposed to be literally nothing but an emergency doctor. No sentience, no knowledge of anything not medical. Basically a medical tricorder that can talk and decide what treatment to give then give it. The fact that the doctor was left on for so long forced him to adapt and grow. We also have seen from as far back as tng that holograms can become so close to fully sentient that the line blurs, such as moriarty. its like the federation has the technology to MAKE fully sentient holograms, but chooses not to do so as a general rule. Geordi creates hologram copies of the entire engineering crew back at some home base hot shot group and they all think and act like the originals. Im thinking the primary issue is condensing all that into a small enough computer to fit in a human chassis as all the holograms work off of the ships computer which is... slightly larger than a human brain I assume. Even the doctors transmitter was several centuries advanced in time tech which is why it could contain his fully sentient program. So while they CAN make actual sentient holograms, they generally dont as its kind of a huge ethical bog to wade through considering they are now trapped on the ship they were created on and can only exist in specific areas with the memory capacity to hold and display them.

[JadedDM]

Spoiler: History and Tech 2

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One really wonders what happened to Doc from Voyager. Did he start a whole ''Photons be Free" movement? It's not like Starfleet would have tons of holographic SLAVES, right?

He did just that in STO, anyways. It should be interesting to see what PIC's take is on the whole thing.

[Kitten Champion]

Spoiler: Holograms

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I'm not so sure. The hologram made a joke and even said they 'were trying out humor.' That sounds a bit more advanced. Not sure if it's a sign of sapience, but it sure looked like it.

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Relative to the Doctor she was like a Casio Calculator, even established non-sapient holograms have more apparent sapience.

Hell, remember this is the universe with Vic Fontaine in it over 20 years ago, and he wasn't even a special case or malfunction.

[Ramza00]

Holograms vs Synthetics

Spoiler: A Metaphor with some Mythology

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So the thing about Holograms there hardware is tied to a computer and an emitter. Thus the Hologram is able to be "controlled by Starfleet."

Furthermore there is an additional level of control where the Hologram is often programmed to be able to be turned off by Starfleet's unless this capability is purposefully removed by an engineer who knows how to add or delete parts of the hologram's code.

This in turn creates a "FORCED" relationship where the hologram is either subservient to the greater society or a cooperative "symbiotic" relationship with the greater society. The ability to be destroyed, the ability to experience death forces this compliance. Adapt to the way Starfleet / The Federation can tolerate or be destroyed.

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I forsee Plato's "Origin of Love" from his Symopsium is going to be used in this Picard series. [There are multiple speeches I am talking about the one given by the playwright Aristophanes, aka this video summary from the movie Hedwig and the Angry Inch]



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Synthetics are different then holograms for supposedly they can be able to created and once created they are "independent" from the Federation / Star Fleet. They have the ability to grow and create, and thus the ability to create more Synthetics. These Synthetics can be terrorists and thus the Federation fears this artificial life for it has the power to harm Organics and the Organics can't do anything to stop these Synthetics.

The Federation fears Synthetics much like a father may fear its own children, like Zeus feared a successor child may overthrow him much like his father Cronus and Uranus were disposed of by their children.

These synthetics can become immortal, and also created a new generation, they can be truly "independent" from The Federation and thus the possibility of death on the Federation part scares them. You see if the synthetics were more like "normal organics" than a symbotic relationship could be created with The Federation. The Federation is afraid for they can not "compel the synthetics" like they could other forms of life with their great power, but also a form of cultural assimilation where you can be cosmopolitian-ish inside the federation. You can kinda remain your own culture in the federation, but also gain all the value this multi-cultural utopic federation society is.

But the Synthetics are scary for they do not need utopia, they do not need to fear death in the same way us flesh organics do. The federation is afraid for this fear remains even if we have conquered so many other needs in this utopia that the Federation has created.

[Droid Tony]

Spoiler: History and Tech 3

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Humm..I guess it is never said how much memory and processing power an AI needs. I guess it makes sense that you'd need a computer core the size of a building. So the problem is they can't make a brain the size of a human head.

At least until Starfleet invents Mobil Emitters in the 27th century...

[Hunter Noventa]

Interesting stuff about the canon there, I didn't know quite a bit of that because I've only been exposed to the films/TV shows - and not even all of the TV shows at that.

My conclusion is that we're overthinking this.

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Data's step-mom doesn't get mentioned because she's an unnecessary complication that most people won't remember. I didn't, and I've seen that episode enough times to remember the whole plot of it (once reminded that the episode exists). Data having a secret android mom is just not something I think about. The plot needs Data to be gone, so she functionally doesn't exist for the purposes of this story. I'm fine with that, especially returning to the timeline for the first time in over a decade.

The same is true of the Remans. They were invented for the movie Nemesis, because they needed a scary new alien race. There are no named Reman characters in canon. Other than Nemesis, they only appear in two episodes of Enterprise. So why bring them up? They were a terrible idea from a terrible movie.

This goes back to what I was saying in the Star Wars thread about demanding too much of your audience. When doing a spinoff series (or movie), you want to keep the amount of information required to understand what is going on to a minimum. In the case of Picard, a fair amount of knowledge about The Next Generation is already required. Knowledge from Star Trek XI is needed. And knowledge from Star Trek Nemesis is required, since that is where Data died.

So, the show has tried to simplify things as much as possible. A third android that only appeared in a single episode of TNG? Gone. Remans? Gone. Hobus blowing up Romulus through a subspace shockwave? Gone.

Instead, it tells us flat out what we need to know from the ancillary source material. The Romulan sun went supernova, and Picard tried to help. Data died saving Picard's life - no further information needed. B4 is brought up solely to put the kaibosh on long-running fan theories - he was a failed prototype and Data could not be downloaded into him.

They've tried to make it as easy as possible for new people to get into a sequel to a thirty year old TV show. I appreciate their efforts in this regard.

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I'm guessing it's also that Data's android mom was patterned off of a real person's brain through some kind of scan, rather than created from scratch, and that's not what they're interested in doing. At least, I think that was part of her backstory, haven't seen that episode in decades.

As for the Hobus/Romulan sun conundrum...in STO which is of course it's own thing, Hobus went supernova because the Romulans were doing experiments on it. It 'traveled through subspace' to propagate faster than a normal supernova would. Why did it do that?

Spoiler: STO Spoilers?

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Iconians. It did that because the Iconians interfered because Empress Sela went back in time to try and kill all the Iconians before they could escape the destruction of Iconia, did manage to kill one, causing the rest to swear revenge against the Romulans, so they blew up Romulus via messing with the Hobus experiments. And now 200,000 years later (the game's present) there's a huge war against the Iconians and their servitors because they want to rule the galaxy again, and you go back in time to stop them (along with Sela) but because you're not driven by vengeance like she is you actually bring a piece of technobabble back from the past that you give to the Iconians to end the war. It's very wibbly wobbly.

[Droid Tony]

Fun theories:

The Evil Romulan twins are....half human! In fact, they are the children of Sela, daughter of Tasha Yar from an alternative timeline.

And...maybe more so they are part Romulan, part human......AND part Synthetic Android. Ok, so right at the start of the Enterprise D's journey Data and Tasha Yar had sex. So...Yar has a pisotronic super cell sperm in her. So it's not exactly ''compatible" with humans...so maybe it took a couple years to work....like around the next time she had sex, with her new Romulan husband.

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All of Star Trek has had very few robots or artificial intelligence at all. Not just Starfeet and the Federation, but Everyone. It's odd enough that with 150 member worlds very few even have robots or artificial intelligence. Other then EMH systems, every computer we see is beyond dumb. We see robot probes all the time....but that is about it for robots.

Even outside the Federation, we see very few robots or artificial intelligence at all. The Cardassians had that one super smart missile....and...well,,,not much else. And most other aliens have...nothing.

A couple of ancient alien races had both robots and artificial intelligence, but they are long dead.

So...why does no one have robots or artificial intelligence? It does not seem like it's ''pure chance". Some thing like 200-500 alien races with roughly 5,000 years of history each NEVER even thought of making a robots or artificial intelligence? Seems a bit odd.

Unless they all were manipulated.....

So, once upon a time, say 10,000 years ago...there was a race and they made robots, artificial intelligence and super AI too. And they destroyed themselves...as per a classic robot apocalypse. All most nothing is left of them now....except maybe a single synthetic super intelligent AI. And They are the one keeping the galaxy free of both robots and artificial intelligence. Maybe with the help, knowingly or not, by a super secret group or two.

Basically a R.Daniel from the Issac Asimov books (remember when we saw one of his books in Picard's house and Sir Patrick said how much he did not like sci fi)

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Oh and Soji is LORE's daughter....not Data's.....surprise :)

[Palanan]

So, during the long Playground hiatus, I watched the first episode of Picard, which CBS made available on YouTube.

No time for a full reaction, but I was really, really impressed. Patrick Stewart is fantastic and the first episode was superbly done. Many, many questions raised, from the simple to the sublime; and while any pilot can kick out setup, this really sold me on their ability to follow through with it.

I haven't been this excited and hopeful about a new Star Trek show in twenty years or more. Not sure when I'll be able to finish the season, but I'm confident it'll be worth the wait.

[Peelee]

So, during the long Playground hiatus, I watched the first episode of Picard, which CBS made available on YouTube.

No time for a full reaction, but I was really, really impressed. Patrick Stewart is fantastic and the first episode was superbly done. Many, many questions raised, from the simple to the sublime; and while any pilot can kick out setup, this really sold me on their ability to follow through with it.

I haven't been this excited and hopeful about a new Star Trek show in twenty years or more. Not sure when I'll be able to finish the season, but I'm confident it'll be worth the wait.

Having seen all five episodes up so far, I can attest that it totally would be. And fortunately, I don't have to wait.

ETA: Without spoiling anything, I would recommend anyone who has access to more than the first episode re-watch TNG's episode Measure of a Man beforehand.

[Rodin]

Having seen all five episodes up so far, I can attest that it totally would be. And fortunately, I don't have to wait.

ETA: Without spoiling anything, I would recommend anyone who has access to more than the first episode re-watch TNG's episode Measure of a Man beforehand.

I went and did just that after watching the first couple episodes. It's obvious that the writers of Picard drew a lot of inspiration from that episode, including the idea that Picard comes off as a pompous ass to some of his fellow Starfleet officers. Picard being an idealist even within Starfleet fits with some of the other TNG episodes that I've gone back and watched.

Picard takes a lot of liberties with Star Trek canon, but I just don't care. It's the most fun I've had with Star Trek in decades.