OOTS #844 - The Discussion Thread

[SteveMB]

Of course, an argument could be made that the Draketooth clan's postmortem paranoia makes even less sense given that they obviously would have realised that two gates were destroyed in less than a year, including Soon's. They could maybe think the Sapphire Guard tried to seize Dorukan's gate and failed, but what motivation would they have to destroy their own gate?

That's the characters' inference for why the Resurrection didn't work. It may or may not be true. (It may or may not matter whether or not it's true; in the latter case, we may never get anything to confirm or refute it.)

It does fit what we know about Girard (and what he would therefore teach his followers), so there's no real reason to doubt it, but the door is open for another explanation if and when the story calls for it.

[silvadel]

They could learn something from tsukiko -- The buddy system. You should never have one adventurer going alone anywhere unless it is the party rogue scouting ahead. Especially not the mage with no con bonus or the cleric.

[Doug Lampert]

Rich has stated a distaste for how the alignment pie chart has been used for such things, and it's probably a major theme in the comic. I'm just trying to focus more on game mechanics and less on genuine ethics and morals.

The game mechanics as writen in the PHB actually agree with Rich, not you. I can't help how you game, but genocide is clearly evil by the rules, a character being evil clearly doesn't neccessarily justify killing it by the rules (you need an actual crime), and races are never a monolithic alignment by the rules (not even "always" races), and goblins and orcs aren't even always races.

Killing a goblin because he's a goblin is flat out evil by the rules as writen.

[jidasfire]

Thanks for sharing.

That doesn't mean that there aren't games where PC's are played as murderers for the fun of it. When I was a high schooler and we played D&D all the time, we once had an adventure where we were not the ones rescuing the princess, but the ones capturing her and bringing her to our leader, the anti-paladin. We had to come up with reasons to force her to marry him. The only trick that worked was after we burned a village and killed everyone in it and took her on a tour of the carnage. We then took her to her own home village and threatened to do it again. She relented. (We totally cribbed that idea from what General Tarquin did to Princess Leia in the movie "Star Wars.")

That was a fun campaign because it was a different set of problems we had to solve, and it was fun to play against type. And yes, there was a different kind of visceral thrill when we were stomping all over the village, a la Godzilla.

My Two Cents,

B.H.D.

Post Script: If you are the kind of person who thinks it is necessary for me to state that me and my buddies have all grown up into respectable adults with respectable families of our own in the 28 years since we "committed genocide in a fantasy game," then you probably aren't the kind of person I'd like to hang out with. But if you met me at a PTA meeting, I know just the things I'm suppose to say so that you think I'm a great guy who really understands your point of view and you are honored that I am the one teaching your precious little children...

Leaving aside the oddly creepy and defensive tone of your argument, I don't think that's what Bulldog Psion was talking about. A common dismissal of heroic fantasy gaming is that it's just an excuse for engaging bloodlust and racism, justified because the victims have green skin instead of a more human color, and because the rules describe them as innately evil. His point, and I agree, is that not all gamers who fight monsters are necessarily doing so out of some veiled bigotry, and for the most part, the rules are also not saying that. That isn't a judgment about people playing characters who are in fact demonstrably villains like you describe, which is a perfectly valid path as long as you're honest about it. His comment more relates to the idea that fantasy gamers are immoral and racist because they're "grave-robbing murderers who slaughters green people because they are arbitrarily called evil." It's not something I've seen in a lot of games either, but it's a common criticism.

[Smolder]

Killing a goblin because he's a goblin is flat out evil by the rules as writen.

Unless you yell, "They're coming right for us!"
Then it's self defense, and rewarded with XP.

[LordRahl6]

That's the characters' inference for why the Resurrection didn't work. It may or may not be true. (It may or may not matter whether or not it's true; in the latter case, we may never get anything to confirm or refute it.)

It does fit what we know about Girard (and what he would therefore teach his followers), so there's no real reason to doubt it, but the door is open for another explanation if and when the story calls for it.

The other possiblity involves that the Familicide Spell was sooo high level that Durkon couldn't penetrate it. However even if the he was able to break through the triggering of the spell at the false location would be further incentive for any souls to stay away. LOVE the cutaway to V not just to show us how he's doing, but emphasizing that it was his actions.

[Doug Lampert]

The other possiblity involves that the Familicide Spell was sooo high level that Durkon couldn't penetrate it.

Nope, all continuing magical effects ended when the splice did. There is no magic related to Familicide that stops the resurection because all magic from familicide is gone, kaput. That's part of the described deal and mechanism for how the splice worked.

[Zombieboots]

Nope, all continuing magical effects ended when the splice did. There is no magic related to Familicide that stops the resurection because all magic from familicide is gone, kaput. That's part of the described deal and mechanism for how the splice worked.

So I'm a little curious thanks to Familicide how much of the worlds population in general has been eliminated. In the mosaic panel of the Familicide spell I saw a centaur-drake, and other mixed breeds.
V cast it so that no one of the Dragon's family would come after him/her and him/her family again but now that it's been spelled out for us. It seems likely that another group of Adventurers would probably be setting up to hunt down V.

[KingFlameHawk]

I'm not satisfied with this comic, for these reasons. It just feels contrived. I would bet anything that in a realistic scenario, at least one of the Draketooths would be willing to return--with so many reasons to:

• It's obviously not Soon's men if they're worshipping Thor
• They should do whatever it takes to protect the Gate
• It's only natural to be really curious about what could have happened

But Durkon probably won't try any of the others, or if he does it'll be passed off with "oh, it didn't work for them either". This is honestly the first time I've ever felt this way about OotS, but if it happens the way I've said it will be not just bad in the story but bad writing.

I think there are a few things you are missing:
1. Their thought process is most likely that any lawful good cleric, regard less of diety is an ally of Soon and his men and can't be trusted. Also this comic shows that Girard think of the 12 gods of the south as a " glorified petting zoo", showing a disbelief of, or at least mistrust of gods in the first place so Durkon being a cleric of Thor obviously makes no difference.
2. They probably think they are. If they don't know that everyone is dead their thought process is most likely "I am died, A lawful cleric (obviously one of Soon's lackeys) is trying to raise me, if he does he will likely torture me or mind control me until I give him information on the gate, I better stay dead"
3. I am pretty sure that distrust can override curiousity in this case if they are this level of chaotic, also it has been shown that if someone is curious they don't need to be raised they can just go to this demiplane a watch them, or just go down themselves.

[thepsyker]

Haley has Use Magic Device. (Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales)

Spoiler

Show

Enough to reliably use a Teleport scroll, when she was lower-level than she is now.

Whether Durkon has Scribe Scroll is another question.

Aren't the stories, other than the Stick Tales framing story, in SSaDT considered a separate continuity from the main comic? I thought Rich mentioned that in the commentary for the 4 edition story.


edit: Something occurred to me, is it possible that after dying the Draketooths found out what killed them and that V is responsible, so that they are not refusing resurrection because Durkan is LG, but because he is in the same party as the person who killed them?

[Cirin]

Aren't the stories, other than the Stick Tales framing story, in SSaDT considered a separate continuity from the main comic? I thought Rich mentioned that in the commentary for the 4 edition story.

It's gets fuzzy.

Belkar being an accomplished gourmet chef came originally from the "separate continuity" Dragon Magazine comics, also reprinted in that collection.

His gourmet culinary skills have now come up twice in the main story: Late in the Battle of Azure City when he cooked for the MitD to barter for Roy's corpse, and the rescue of V from his extraplanar exile.

Sounds like the precedent is that the actual events of the side-comics are a separate continuity, but skills & abilities of the characters are constant in both.

Since Use Magic Device is a class skill for Rogues (and was based off the AD&D ability of Thieves to use scrolls), having Haley be able to use a Resurrection scroll is quite plausible.

[Bengui]

I would bet anything that in a realistic scenario, at least one of the Draketooths would be willing to return--with so many reasons to:

Certainly. But you need to find this specific Drakethooth before you can raise him. Are they going to blow 5000 gp on every corpse until one of them comes back ? you can't guess which ones will be willing to just by looking at their earthly remains.

[Mantine]

I think there are a few things you are missing:
1. Their thought process is most likely that any lawful good cleric, regard less of diety is an ally of Soon and his men and can't be trusted. Also this comic shows that Girard think of the 12 gods of the south as a " glorified petting zoo", showing a disbelief of, or at least mistrust of gods in the first place so Durkon being a cleric of Thor obviously makes no difference.

"Obviously", no less?
His contempt may be directed only at those 12, there's nothing obvious here.
Also, thinking that any lawful-good cleric would be nothing but an enemy is definitely a stretch here.

2. They probably think they are. If they don't know that everyone is dead their thought process is most likely "I am died, A lawful cleric (obviously one of Soon's lackeys) is trying to raise me, if he does he will likely torture me or mind control me until I give him information on the gate, I better stay dead"

"obviously", again.
Also, paladins torturing and mind controlling people?

Girard knows full well how paladins think and act, that's the very basic reason for his contempt towards them.
If there would be one prone to torture/mind control, that would be Girard, not lawful-good paladins.

3. I am pretty sure that distrust can override curiousity in this case if they are this level of chaotic, also it has been shown that if someone is curious they don't need to be raised they can just go to this demiplane a watch them, or just go down themselves.

The canyon prevents scrying, and there's no amount of "distrust" enough to justify putting the entire world in danger just for the sake of it.

Sorry, I'm just not buying any of these reasons.

[Gusion]

Okay, 4 things here.

1. The effects of the Familicide Spell have been great enough that it really should have attracted more divine intervention than it has. All we know is that Tiamat is unhappy. But this kind of spell should have attracted the attention of a couple of Avatars at the very least.

2. I concur with Finagle - the party made a stupid decision on who to try to rez. Not that it matters, really, but it is the little things you know.

3. Lots of people are missing the point that the reasons the characters are stating for why the resurrection didn't work doesn't mean those reasons are accurate. They're just pulling guesses out of their collective asses.

4. I wonder if the IFCC views it in their self-interest to keep V alive for a while longer... obviously the more powerful V upon death the better for the IFCC. I figure they'd at least want V to reach level 20...

[Red XIV]

"Obviously", no less?
His contempt may be directed only at those 12, there's nothing obvious here.
Also, thinking that any lawful-good cleric would be nothing but an enemy is definitely a stretch here.

Girard's comment may have only referred to the 12 Gods of the Southern Continent. But it came off to me as him being contemptuous of the very concept of worshiping a god or gods.

I wonder if the IFCC views it in their self-interest to keep V alive for a while longer... obviously the more powerful V upon death the better for the IFCC. I figure they'd at least want V to reach level 20...

V seems to assume that the IFCC will get their time controlling him upon his death. But they never actually said that. It's entirely possible (IMO, probable) that they'll end up taking control of him while he's still alive. Taking possession of his soul for 44 minutes and 16 seconds after his death would be of limited use at best. Doing so for the same amount of time while he's alive , on the other hand, could be a lot more useful.

[ti'esar]

Girard's comment may have only referred to the 12 Gods of the Southern Continent. But it came off to me as him being contemptuous of the very concept of worshiping a god or gods.

For what it's worth, I agree - it's not just the Southern Gods he has a beef with.

[GMantis]

"obviously", again.
Also, paladins torturing and mind controlling people?

Girard knows full well how paladins think and act, that's the very basic reason for his contempt towards them.
If there would be one prone to torture/mind control, that would be Girard, not lawful-good paladins.

Girard actually knew very little about how paladins think and act. Otherwise he wouldn't have thought that they would break their oath.

[LadyEowyn]

I don't think it's just the Southern Gods; Girard comes across very strongly as the OotS-verse's Christopher Hitchens. Which is a bit Flat Earth Atheist, considering the context...

[M.A.D]

4. I wonder if the IFCC views it in their self-interest to keep V alive for a while longer... obviously the more powerful V upon death the better for the IFCC. I figure they'd at least want V to reach level 20...

Many people are saying that they are not waiting for V to die before collecting her soul, that is, to take control of her body and cause damage where it's most vital for their plan. That said, it would have been for naught if she died right there

[Warren Dew]

But I understand now what you meant, and what Rich meant. I will be surprised and disappointed at Roy and the others in the Order if they will see hir like that, because it is so far out.

I think Rich meant to use the cutaway to show two things. One, Vaarsuvius is still alive. Two, Roy's belief that the killings were caused by a new villain is incorrect, because they were caused by Vaaruvius, who is not a villain.

I think that would probably his wife.

She had a few strands of red hair left, which I take to be an implication that she's a descendant of the Draketooth dragon. Based on what happened with Penelope, I don't think the Draketeeth kept their spouses around.

[Mantine]

Girard actually knew very little about how paladins think and act. Otherwise he wouldn't have thought that they would break their oath.

He knew so little that he traveled with one for years.

[GMantis]

He knew so little that he traveled with one for years.

And he obviously learned nothing about them in all those years. Makes it more likely that he'll believe anything about paladins.

[ti'esar]

I don't think it's just the Southern Gods; Girard comes across very strongly as the OotS-verse's Christopher Hitchens. Which is a bit Flat Earth Atheist, considering the context...

In his defense, undeniably real or not, the OOTS gods have not shown themselves as particularly worthy of devotion. I'm not sure I'd be inclined to worship them either, although Girard's attitude does seem rather more extreme then, say, someone like Roy.

To put in TV Tropes terms, I'd peg Girard more as the Nay Theist then the Flat Earth Atheist.

And he obviously learned nothing about them in all those years. Makes it more likely that he'll believe anything about paladins.

Right. You can certainly make the argument that the Draketooths' refusing resurrection is contrived, but don't try and base it on their knowledge of how paladins operate.

If anything, I think his travels with Soon made Girard all the more convinced of his view of paladins, if they didn't create it in the first place.

[rbetieh]

Rbetieh's silly musing # 15678 : This comic makes me think that the OOTScribble had their falling because of a bad argument about Trivial Pursuit.

[Mantine]

And he obviously learned nothing about them in all those years. Makes it more likely that he'll believe anything about paladins.

Again with the crazy assumptions?
"he learned nothing" "he'll believe anything"

All we know is that he believed Soon able to break an oath for the sake of world protection, which isn't the same as thinking that a paladin would resort to torturing people. Let's not be crazy now.

[Forikroder]

i cant help but think of a dead guy sitting in paradise and getting a message from one of those awful machines

"you have a ressurection from a -BSSSST- LAWFUL GOOD - Cleric, if you want to accept the ressurection press one, if you wish to remain dead press 2"

[t209]

She had a few strands of red hair left, which I take to be an implication that she's a descendant of the Draketooth dragon. Based on what happened with Penelope, I don't think the Draketeeth kept their spouses around.

He's likely to be more resurrected since older= more natural based death= no resurrection. I mean he's younger than old lady.

[MeanMrsMustard]

i cant help but think of a dead guy sitting in paradise and getting a message from one of those awful machines

"you have a ressurection from a -BSSSST- LAWFUL GOOD - Cleric, if you want to accept the ressurection press one, if you wish to remain dead press 2"

I LOL'd.
Anyway, I was kind of confused at first -- I didn't exactly understand the whole "it tells you the alignment of the cleric" thing (I was wondering why Roy didn't get a message) until I remembered that Roy would probably ignore the message, since he already knew Durkon's alignment.
But I enjoyed this comic. After the succession of more serious strips, it was nice to see a humorous strip that didn't feel... weird. My younger brother just finished the Archive Binge, and neither of us can wait for #845.

[Incom]

I dunno about the whole "wouldn't take a rez from a LG cleric" when said LG cleric's patron (which they are also told based on the spell as written) is the "Chaotic Drunken" Thor. Granted, the Draketooths seem to think that All Paladins Are Miko, but that archetype surely wouldn't put up with Thor's antics... or do they think the rez info can be faked?

[KicktheCAN]

I have been thinking, shouldn't 5% of people affected by the Familicide spell still be alive? Having rolled an automatic success on their saving throw that is.