OOTS #1276 - The Discussion Thread

[The MunchKING]

I'm really digging Julia being an illusion and therefore visible to Bloodfeast, but now we have Eugene changing his illusion of Julia into an illusion of himself with the same color aura as when he's an oathspirit.

A part of me realizes this is a trivial detail that Rich will either explain or choose not to explain, but it's hard to resist thinking about.

My idea is he can't resist projecting the illusion of himself to gloat about how his plans are all coming together. Either his Ego or his sense of the dramatic as an Illusionist, either way.

[drDunkel]

I told'nt you! Anyho, this raises a few questions regarding Eugene's reversed daddy kink, Bloodfeast's urge to talk to Blackwing, and how to do the impromptu defence of the altitude-deficient lady's budoir!

[Aquillion]

Eugene might be a selfish geezer, but he’s “just” a selfish geezer if that makes any sense. I don’t think he’s actually getting into Celestia, but it’s not like he’s going to the Nine Hells either.

Case in point: He did agree with Roy's objection that the dwarves would be condemned to suffering due to not dying honorable deaths. He was only willing to suggest just letting the world get destroyed with the understanding that everyone (or at least everyone who hadn't earned an Evil afterlife) would be fine in the afterlife. This shows that he does draw at least some moral lines.

(His suggestions to resolve the dwarf problem were also absurd, but having low wisdom doesn't make you evil.)

He can cast spells with Owl's Wisdom... but I guess he needs a scroll. I don't know how it works.

When it comes to Owl's Wisdom, he's limited to scrolls because the Wisdom restriction applies to both preparing and casting:

To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a ranger’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the ranger’s Wisdom modifier.

Spell preparation takes an hour (although in theory you can prepare a portion of your spells in less time), and Owl's Wisdom only lasts 1 minute / level. This makes it difficult for him to both prepare and cast spells.

Of course, a Periapt of Wisdom would solve this, but it's possible he doesn't like the feeling of gaining wisdom.

[andowero]

When he talked about his father became clear to me¹ that he is a spawn of the Snarl.

¹ through idiosyncrasy

He is a member of some known species. That doesn't fit the Snarl - Ultra Secret Even Highest Priests Are Not Told By Their Gods Entity.

[danielxcutter]

Case in point: He did agree with Roy's objection that the dwarves would be condemned to suffering due to not dying honorable deaths. He was only willing to suggest just letting the world get destroyed with the understanding that everyone (or at least everyone who hadn't earned an Evil afterlife) would be fine in the afterlife. This shows that he does draw at least some moral lines.

(His suggestions to resolve the dwarf problem were also absurd, but having low wisdom doesn't make you evil.)

I think that's less a Wisdom thing and as much an "I've been dead long enough to not really remember how much dying sucked, plus I died a lot anyways because I was an adventurer so I'm kinda desensitized to it" as much as it is an alignment thing. It's not like he was actually capable or willing to do that, either; speaking from experience, making suggestions isn't remotely the same thing as being able to go through with it.

Being Good isn't easy, but being non-Evil isn't that hard if you have the choice.

[Gensan]

I don't think Roy knows yet, but I think he will realize between this visit and the next.

Or something Eugene says during the next visit gives him away.

[JonahFalcon]

I don't think Roy knows yet, but I think he will realize between this visit and the next.

Or something Eugene says during the next visit gives him away.

I think he's known all along. Plenty of verbal clues there, too.

[Larsaan]

I think that's less a Wisdom thing and as much an "I've been dead long enough to not really remember how much dying sucked, plus I died a lot anyways because I was an adventurer so I'm kinda desensitized to it" as much as it is an alignment thing. It's not like he was actually capable or willing to do that, either; speaking from experience, making suggestions isn't remotely the same thing as being able to go through with it.

Being Good isn't easy, but being non-Evil isn't that hard if you have the choice.

I also don't think it's that crazy an idea in a setting with a confirmed afterlife, especially for someone who's had a lot of time to get used to that idea. Dying sucks, yes, but it's a suck that everyone has to go through at some point or another anyway. Hel(l?), we've already seen dwarves discussing potentially having to duel someone to death just to bump them off before old age gets them, so clearly they too are somewhat desensitized to the idea.

Which isn't to say it isn't macabre, but within the context of the setting... it's still technically Good, possibly even Lawful Good.

[Fish]

With the usual caveats about the unreliability of prediction and respect for Rich’s autonomy and ability to craft whatever story he likes: I don’t believe Roy knows, nor do I believe it is necessary for him to find out. I think Eugene is going to undergo character growth, of which Roy will not be aware. Roy will continue to think this is Julia and take the conversations on those terms, even as Eugene becomes a better person — and as Eugene is unable to reap the benefits of reconciliation. He promised to avoid his family in Celestia, which means he cannot even apologize to them for all the faults he can now admit to. Actually becoming Lawful Good will require Eugene to make a personal sacrifice that precludes him from enjoying his lawful goodness. Celestia would give him a hollow victory: enjoyment of the afterlife (including the tavern where Eugene always is right about every argument) without the one thing that he realizes truly matters to him — his family.

Right now, Eugene easily promised to stay away. He wouldn’t miss them. He needs to grow so he does miss them. That would be the most poignant way for Eugene’s arc to end, in my opinion.

[sonicsuns]

(I can't believe it took me this long to join the forums...)

I'm calling it: Roy has already figured out that "Julia" is Eugene and he's just playing along for some reason.

In Panel 4, he acts as if he's actually behind a specific door in Monster Hollow, so that once the villains enter that door they'll end up finding "the prize". But he knows full well that's not true! Every door is a decoy thanks to the swap-overs, and the villains probably won't figure that out until they've reached the final door. But he never mentions this to Julia.

His earlier bit about watching him audition for Fighter College may have been a deliberate test. Maybe Julia wasn't there and he knows that she remembers not being there, because they've talked about this at some point in the past. But Eugene wasn't there and also Eugene has no idea whether Julia was there or not, so if Roy says "you were there" to Julia then a real Julia will say "No I wasn't" but a fake Julia will say "Oh, uh..." and that was the final clue that convinced Roy of the truth.

I'm not sure what his long-term plan is; why doesn't he tell Eugene to just buzz off? I guess maybe he thinks Eugene will let info slip to the enemy somehow, so he's giving some real info to convince whoever's listening that this is a real conversation, while keeping his most important cards close to the chest. Then at some critical moment he'll tell Eugene an absolute lie, knowing that the enemy will believe it.

Why would Eugene tell the villains anything, you ask? Doesn't he want to kill Xykon too? Maybe the concern is about magical eavesdropping that Eugene might not even be aware of. Or maybe there's another angle I haven't considered.

[Hopeless]

Why's that?

Redcloak's allies are running through a wide variety of spells and spell-like effects checking through each and every one of those doors.

Sooner or later they are going to reach where Eugene is and unlike Redcloak should be able to detect his presence.
Given what Eugene knows if they do catch him how long before he spills everything he knows whether wittingly or not?

And how will the Order react if Xykon is persuaded to broadcast he has captured Eugene would Eugene try that Julia disguise again?

How wil Eugene react to Redcloak's allies?

They're Lawful aligned and Eugene might annoy them given his personality quirks.

Is this a possiblity?

[sonicsuns]

this gave away the farm to me immediately without any days-long analysis, Julia is acting wildly out of character in 1274 when arguing about "What if you're wrong?" Their sibling relationship is sarcastic dismissiveness, not intense argument. Julia is True Neutral and aloof, frankly that she is showing interest in helping at all is bizarre, and that she's that intense about it when nothing about her personality suggests she ever would be is even stranger.

I just took it as "Julia is actually less neutral than she seems", which makes sense. There are lots of aloof people IRL who turn out to actually care about stuff once the stakes are high enough.

However, Durkon still has a second Sending left today; he could easily confirm that this is Julia with that and the reply. C'mon, Roy, you live in a world of magic, everything's suspect, think for five seconds, you're supposed to be the fighter with some brains. It is frustrating because I liked Roy a lot as a character, right up until suddenly he keeps getting fooled all the time in the final two books.

Per my previous comment, I don't think Roy is getting fooled. He's just pretending to be fooled as part of a larger plan.

He won't ask Durkon to check in with Julia because he's already convinced that this isn't the real Julia. No need to waste a spell slot.

This whole thing is character growth for Roy. He's been fooled a few times before, but now he's gotten wise to that trick and he won't be fooled again. The Durkon vampire arc in particular taught him to look out for imposters.

[Ruck]

Redcloak's allies are running through a wide variety of spells and spell-like effects checking through each and every one of those doors.

Sooner or later they are going to reach where Eugene is and unlike Redcloak should be able to detect his presence.

Okay, again, why is that?

-They would have to figure out the swap-overs to "reach where Eugene is";
-That's not really where Eugene is, since he's dead and only manifests to Roy;
-I see nothing to support the "should" here, to the extent such a thing is possible.

Now, Bloodfeast apparently seeing Eugene throws a couple of things into question for me, but overall, this theory seems built on a series of assumptions that I don't see reason to assume.

In Panel 4, he acts as if he's actually behind a specific door in Monster Hollow, so that once the villains enter that door they'll end up finding "the prize". But he knows full well that's not true! Every door is a decoy thanks to the swap-overs, and the villains probably won't figure that out until they've reached the final door. But he never mentions this to Julia.

I'm glad you brought this up, because I definitely found it odd. I just don't know what to make of it. Your theory-- in conjunction with your hypothesis about Roy's comments about Fighter School that I didn't include here-- is at least compelling enough not to dismiss,

Right now, Eugene easily promised to stay away. He wouldn’t miss them. He needs to grow so he does miss them. That would be the most poignant way for Eugene’s arc to end, in my opinion.

While I still don't think Eugene will get into Celestia, I do think it would be darkly funny, and an appropriate end for him, if he gets in, announces he's going to visit the other Greenhilts, and the devas (who are aware of his promise somehow; it's not a stretch that they would be) immediately give him the boot to another afterlife.

"Eugene Greenhilt was the same in death as in life: immediately breaking his promises the moment it was convenient for his desires."

[Keltest]

You know, people rag on Eugene for making the promise, but it's not like any of his family ever visited him either. Including the ones who purportedly loved him despite his best efforts. We know they can, because Roy did it, so is it any wonder he isn't interested in them? By all appearances they aren't interested in him.

[Ruck]

You know, people rag on Eugene for making the promise, but it's not like any of his family ever visited him either. Including the ones who purportedly loved him despite his best efforts. We know they can, because Roy did it, so is it any wonder he isn't interested in them? By all appearances they aren't interested in him.

Which do you think came first? Because I'm pretty sure it was Eugene's active and open dismissal of and disdain for his family in life that has led to nobody wanting to visit him in the afterlife. Unless you are trying to argue that Eugene should feel justified in that disdain because their not visiting him proves he was right to disregard them so.

[JT]

I think he's known all along. Plenty of verbal clues there, too.

He almost certainly hasn't known all along. (I do think he now knows - or at least, has concluded and is correct - that "Julia" is Eugene.)

In #1201, after having the first conversation with "Julia" and then deciding how they're gonna get to Monster Hollow, Roy speaks with Andi about how long the ship and crew should stick around (just one hour, in case Elan forgets his pants).
After hearing that the plan is to cast Sending to Andi so the ship can return, if they're successful, Andi asks in panel 5 what will happen if the casters don't, you know, survive the battle.

Roy's answer (also panel 5) is that "if a teenage girl with green streaks in her hair" -- Julia -- shows up, Andi should listen to what she has to say. Roy does not say that an apparition of a girl would show up (which would be silly anyway, since they dock in Cliffport), nor did he say that an apparition of his father would appear with info.
Clearly, at that point in time, Roy assumed that Julia would be checking in on him periodically, and he could tell her to go down to the docks and relay a message to Andi.

[tanonx]

Roy's answer (also panel 5) is that "if a teenage girl with green streaks in her hair" -- Julia -- shows up, Andi should listen to what she has to say. Roy does not say that an apparition of a girl would show up (which would be silly anyway, since they dock in Cliffport), nor did he say that an apparition of his father would appear with info.
Clearly, at that point in time, Roy assumed that Julia would be checking in on him periodically, and he could tell her to go down to the docks and relay a message to Andi.

Since we're getting into exact words and hidden meanings anyhow... he also never says she'll have a message from him, or tell them where to make a pickup. It seems like a better way to get them in touch with another Greenhilt. Which would make sense if Roy is considering who will and won't survive the next fight in more general terms.

But mostly, there's no reason I know of he'd expect his father to be able to contact the crew. Julia, on the other hand, is surrounded by magic, and plenty familiar with Sendings.

[JT]

Since we're getting into exact words and hidden meanings anyhow... he also never says she'll have a message from him, or tell them where to make a pickup. It seems like a better way to get them in touch with another Greenhilt. Which would make sense if Roy is considering who will and won't survive the next fight in more general terms.

But mostly, there's no reason I know of he'd expect his father to be able to contact the crew. Julia, on the other hand, is surrounded by magic, and plenty familiar with Sendings.

Yup. In fact, Eugene told Roy that the sword was essential for the communication (which is why he never manifested while the sword was broken). This might not be true, but Roy has no reason to disbelieve it, so has no reason to expect that Eugene could contact the crew. And with that limitation, he has no reason to believe that Eugene could relay a message from Roy to Julia, and have her carry it to Andi.

(Remember that this is a backup plan, in case Durkon and V are both incapacitated or worse as a result of the battle... so no Sending is available.)

[brian 333]

The Giant is on record saying that in the afterlife one cannot grow or change. This seems important to this topic because several posters appear to hold out hopes that Eugene will.

One of our plant-based posters could probably find the exact quote.

[Tzardok]

The Giant also said that Eugene's cloud realm is not the afterlife proper, which is why Roy could remember what happened there. Eugene can theoretically change. Wether he will... *shrug*

[The MunchKING]

Roy's answer (also panel 5) is that "if a teenage girl with green streaks in her hair" -- Julia -- shows up, Andi should listen to what she has to say. Roy does not say that an apparition of a girl would show up (which would be silly anyway, since they dock in Cliffport), nor did he say that an apparition of his father would appear with info.
Clearly, at that point in time, Roy assumed that Julia would be checking in on him periodically, and he could tell her to go down to the docks and relay a message to Andi.

I thought the implication was if Roy died at the North Pole, but the rest of his team won the day thanks to his heroic sacrifice or whatever, he'd appear to Julia, like a Blood Oath spirit, to tell her to get an airship to save his friends.

EDIT: But looking back at that thread she only says "if your casters don't make it" rather than "if some of you don't make it", like I thought. So, Julia bugging Roy on the regular seems to be a more reasonable reading of it.

[a_flemish_guy]

I present a "you were right" trophy to the people who thought it was eugene and a "it kind of made sense at the time and I can see where you're coming from"-trophy to the people who thought it was sabine

as for me, I'm dissapointed, I was really engaged into the development of greenhilt's bloodoath coordination and I really believed that julia was attempting to repair the rifts between her and her brother and roy was just being himself untill later he realised what's going one and then attempts to make it good to her (or there would be a gondor calls for aid moment where julia does an action that helps everyone despite roy not taking her seriously previously)

[Precure]

If Roy really know the truth, he had to learn it during the second visit, because at the end of the first one he was genuinely trying to tell Julia about their father's promise.

[Kish]

I don't think Julia really has rifts she needs to sort out with Roy. She has a normal, loving but sometimes adversarial sibling relationship. It's...actually kind of remarkable that their relationship is as good as it is, considering their class conflicts followed by Roy has presumably getting legal custody of Julia when Eugene died.

[Larsaan]

The Giant is on record saying that in the afterlife one cannot grow or change. This seems important to this topic because several posters appear to hold out hopes that Eugene will.

One of our plant-based posters could probably find the exact quote.

Seems like a weird rule to set when the LG afterlife is structured around getting bored of earthly desires and eventually striving towards enlightenment. If that's not growth or change, what is?

[brian 333]

Seems like a weird rule to set when the LG afterlife is structured around getting bored of earthly desires and eventually striving towards enlightenment. If that's not growth or change, what is?

It is shedding the things one had in life to become a perfect incarnation of the afterlife. Going up Mount Celestia is done by getting rid of everything that makes one unique. It is un-learning.

[Peelee]

The Giant also said that Eugene's cloud realm is not the afterlife proper

Did he? I remember him saying Eugene's cloud is not Celestia. Can you find the quote where he says its not the afterlife?

[Tzardok]

Did he? I remember him saying Eugene's cloud is not Celestia. Can you find the quote where he says its not the afterlife?

Isn't that the same thing?

[KorvinStarmast]

Isn't that the same thing?

Not really. It (the cloud place) is like being in the parking lot outside of the grocery store, but not in the store (Celestia) itself. Gene relates to Roy that he can't get in due to the blood oath.
Stuck in the Parking lot, as it were, unable to get into the store until {something} happens.

[Shining Wrath]

Serini already told them it's not behind any of the doors.

I'm pretty sure she already did, a while ago. Then bopped Darken when he tried to speculate on where it was.

What Serini told them is that it's not protected by the cross-over. That doesn't mean it's not behind a door, just that Serini is not relying on what is to her an obvious trick.

Now, why doesn't Roy realize that Team Evil is going to exhaust all the doors and still not have found the Gate? He was there when Serini bonked Durkon, and there was discussion of the cross-over trick.

So ... if, hypothetically, the Gate is behind one of the doors, but not protected *only* by the crossover, what is protecting it? My guess is that Team Evil will exhaust all the gates, then figure out the cross-over, then start exploring anew, and find that Biggest Baddest Bunch of Monsters is behind only one cross-over.