Avengers: Endgame Discussion Thread

[Zevox]

Have you people discussed why someone like Thor or Hulk can't snap Iron Man back to life?

Hulk only got his arm scarred by snapping trillions back to life (who died 5 years earlier).
Seems to me like snapping Tony back would be trivial in comparison, maybe scar a hair on one of his fingers or something??

I would have assumed it's because using the stones at all is too dangerous to do so lightly. While it makes sense that the backlash damage worsens with more potent uses of them, remember that a normal person is expected to die to just from holding the Power Stone, and wearing the gauntlet at all put immediate, visible strain on anyone except Thanos himself. Hulk may well have been the only Avenger capable of using it and living at all, and with the injury he already had from the reverse-snap, I doubt anyone would want to chance doing it again. Especially to save just one man who had very clearly willingly sacrificed himself to save the rest of the world.

[gomipile]

I would have assumed it's because using the stones at all is too dangerous to do so lightly. While it makes sense that the backlash damage worsens with more potent uses of them, remember that a normal person is expected to die to just from holding the Power Stone, and wearing the gauntlet at all put immediate, visible strain on anyone except Thanos himself.

Including Thanos. If you mean "the gauntlet" as shorthand for "the gauntlet with all infinity stones." Thanos showed visible strain accompanied by a damaging-looking energy effect when he added the final stone to the gauntlet near the end of Infinity War.

[Zevox]

Including Thanos. If you mean "the gauntlet" as shorthand for "the gauntlet with all infinity stones." Thanos showed visible strain accompanied by a damaging-looking energy effect when he added the final stone to the gauntlet near the end of Infinity War.

Fair if so, I've forgotten if that's the case at this point.

[Chen]

Including Thanos. If you mean "the gauntlet" as shorthand for "the gauntlet with all infinity stones." Thanos showed visible strain accompanied by a damaging-looking energy effect when he added the final stone to the gauntlet near the end of Infinity War.

In Endgame too when he puts on the full Gauntlet you see it affect him. He just bears it easier than Hulk does. The inconsistency is I think in how well Iron Man handles it when he gets it. I assume it has something to do with his Nanosuit or whatever taking the brunt of it.

[LaZodiac]

In Endgame too when he puts on the full Gauntlet you see it affect him. He just bears it easier than Hulk does. The inconsistency is I think in how well Iron Man handles it when he gets it. I assume it has something to do with his Nanosuit or whatever taking the brunt of it.

I feel like, given his past, Tony Stark is just the best at hiding his pain. Depression can do that to a person.

And given he had a really funny quip to say, I can totally see him like mentally going "okay okay don't show it, don't show the pain, don't give in, he just said 'I am inevitable you have to hold on so you can snap your fingers and say the line. He won't get it but it'll make a ****ing great story god I'm gonna die and that sucks but it's going to be such a good end."

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Of course, Thanos turns back time to resurrect Vision just to kill him again in Infinity War.

That's not really resurrection, though, that's localized time travel via an augmented Time Stone, similar to Strange's "un-eat the apple" trick or the time-reversal shenanigans in the wizard battle of Doctor Strange.

Could Strange have used the Time Stone to rewind Tony's timeline? Maybe, but it's possible that this might have also undone the Iron Snap. I suspect that rewinding only Tony might require the augmentation of the other stones for something that precise. (e.g., we see the Time Stone rewind the entire scene in Doctor Strange, whereas we see the Time Stone backed up by other stones rewinding specifically Vision, not sure how the apple fits into this but maybe rewinding the timeline of an apple is simpler than rewinding the timeline of an honest-to-goodness person with a mind and soul)

[Ramza00]

In Endgame too when he puts on the full Gauntlet you see it affect him. He just bears it easier than Hulk does. The inconsistency is I think in how well Iron Man handles it when he gets it. I assume it has something to do with his Nanosuit or whatever taking the brunt of it.

It does not make sense in a movie that does not make sense. So the assumption that things should make sense does not apply to this movie.








But if we want to play this absurd game. The stones when surrounded by inorganic things like a metal sphere do not leak power. A person can interact with said stone via the sphere with no consequences.

Yet other inorganic things like Ronan's hammer and the Infinity Gauntlet allow the stone to be channeled through the inorganic and this in turn allows the user to access it's power, but also suffer the negative feedback.

Iron Man every since IM3 has been working on modular suits which change their nature and are communicated by thought. By Infinity War they are so modular they are modular at the Nano Machine level and do magic things such as having more mass than the space they should take up. (Which is pure magic or they are messing with their density somehow bring infinitely strong but taking up no space like it is some form of 3D crystalline matrix built like a space elevator in all three dimensions. I say it is magic.)

So in may be the case that Iron Man suit allows him to treat the gems like separate items in a "restrain more", trapped in various sources, until he flips a mental switch and the nanomachines reconfigure into a "channel and use more."

A techno-wizard did it. 😉

[LibraryOgre]

Interesting hypothetical: what if Thanos had loved Ultron, and used him as the sacrificial lamb? Would the Soul Stone have accepted that price of its use?)

And you just launched a ship. You should be proud of yourself.

You may have decided on the ship, but I'm going to give you the RomCom title:

When Thanos Met Ultron.

[Ramza00]

If Thanos is Ultron's Daddy, and Thanos planned to use Ultron as a sacrificial lamb...(sees religious parallels^{drops them due to the rules})...This really is the week of Father's Day isn't it?

Who is your Daddy Ultron?



You are not my real dad Stark, Ultron yells to Tony when Tony comes to pick up Ultron from his other dad.

[Mightymosy]

Didn't Dr Strange also rewind precisely one part of a city in his movie?


Also, it still seems a little contrieved.
The stones can kill stuff they didn't create, but un-kill only staff they killed? Really??
*roll eyes*


At any rate, how about Hulk's rejuvenation chamber?
Put Tony's corpse in, roll until pleasant result, done?

Now that I have seen both final movies I think my verdict is "Fun movies but in the end they messed with abilities/powers they had better not touched, for balance's sake"

[Talakeal]

Hulk has a rejuvenation chamber? How did I miss that?

[Narkis]

Also, it still seems a little contrieved.
The stones can kill stuff they didn't create, but un-kill only staff they killed? Really??
*roll eyes*

Generally, killing things is easier than resurrecting them.

[Friv]

Didn't Dr Strange also rewind precisely one part of a city in his movie?

I don't think we saw that, but it's been a while, so I could be wrong. I remember time winding backwards, while Strange and a few other people stepping out of the backwards winding to fight each other.

Also, it still seems a little contrieved.
The stones can kill stuff they didn't create, but un-kill only staff they killed? Really??
*roll eyes*

Technically, the stones can un-kill anyone except someone who was sacrificed specifically for one of the Stones. They just made a decision about what level of bringing people back they were willing to go to. (I would argue that it would have been fair to take a half-step back and bring back everyone who was killed in that last battle trying to keep Thanos from getting the Stones, but whatever, they didn't choose to do that.)

[Rakaydos]

Hulk has a rejuvenation chamber? How did I miss that?

"Someone peed in my suit... but I'm not sure if it was baby me or old me. ...or just me-me."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They just made a decision about what level of bringing people back they were willing to go to

In fact, it was a pre-condition to get Tony's help: that only people who got snapped would be brought back, nothing more. He did NOT want to risk undoing his daughter's existence.

Edit: also, the machine that made ant-man younger and older was fixed by Tony to do actual time travel. Which means the only person likely capable of breaking it back to its original state might be Tony himself.

It also never resurrected anyone.

Grey Wolf

[tyckspoon]

Hulk has a rejuvenation chamber? How did I miss that?

Not quite accurate to call it a 'rejuvenation chamber', but referring to the side effects of the first time travel experiment before Tony dropped by with the idea for the beacon watches/Time GPS devices. Whipping somebody through time without the anchoring device can result in time-shifting their body, apparently with the same mind. So if that effect can be controlled it could theoretically be used for youthening somebody or life-extension; I think 'bringing back the dead' might be a bit of a stretch, you're getting into weird questions about souls and self-continuity there.

[Ramza00]

Not quite accurate to call it a 'rejuvenation chamber', but referring to the side effects of the first time travel experiment before Tony dropped by with the idea for the beacon watches/Time GPS devices. Whipping somebody through time without the anchoring device can result in time-shifting their body, apparently with the same mind. So if that effect can be controlled it could theoretically be used for youthening somebody or life-extension; I think 'bringing back the dead' might be a bit of a stretch, you're getting into weird questions about souls and self-continuity there.

Can one time travel ones astral self and implant the astral self into a new body?

Also can a Robot do the Snap? How about a non self aware Robot that is just a Machine Program? Can we program the Friday in Iron Man's Armor to do the snap allowing us to steal Tony's soul and then time travel the soul to the future, while allowing Tony's Body to do the snap and the Robot AI to do the thinking?

-----

The Ship of Theseus is such a time traveling headache when time travel is involved. What is next a time traveling Diogenes?

Will a time traveling Diogenes show up to the Avengers Academy and once there he speaks to the "Assembled" Avengers? Will Diogenes shoves a chicken with its feathers removed in front of a camera and say...

"Behold! I've brought you an Iron Man!"

The Ancient One: You're a man looking at the world through a keyhole. You've spent your whole life trying to widen that keyhole. To see more. To know more. And now on hearing that it can be widened, in ways you can't imagine, you reject the possibility.
Strange: No, I reject it because I do not believe in fairy tales about chakras or energy or the power of belief. There is no such thing as spirit! We are made of matter and nothing more. We're just another tiny, momentary speck in an indifferent universe.
The Ancient One: You think too little of yourself.
Strange: Oh, you think you see through me, do you? Well, you don't. BUT I SEE THROUGH YOU!
[She strikes his astral form out of his body]
Strange: What did you just do to me?!

Are the indifferent things the universe, the mcu, or the Avengers for not trying to save Tony?

[Maloney]

Changing the subject, I'm so disappointed that Jessica Jones season 3 is the last Netflix Marvel show but it still takes place pre-snap. In Endgame, we get just a bit of expositional "here's what it's been like". We can assume we'll see a lot of what comes next during Far From Home, but I doubt there's going to be much of the five year time jump. Endgame gives us the comic book everything is fixed ending, where the actual consequences seem to be fully resolved, but a real world where half of all life goes extinct would be a fascinating place to explore a ton of different themes and ideas, especially in contrast with well-known and well-established Marvel characters.

I would pay a 50 dollar subscription fee to whatever streaming service Disney wants me to buy if I could see Daredevil or the Punisher or any of the Defenders post-snap. Even just a tie-in comic would do.

[Chen]

Changing the subject, I'm so disappointed that Jessica Jones season 3 is the last Netflix Marvel show but it still takes place pre-snap. In Endgame, we get just a bit of expositional "here's what it's been like". We can assume we'll see a lot of what comes next during Far From Home, but I doubt there's going to be much of the five year time jump. Endgame gives us the comic book everything is fixed ending, where the actual consequences seem to be fully resolved, but a real world where half of all life goes extinct would be a fascinating place to explore a ton of different themes and ideas, especially in contrast with well-known and well-established Marvel characters.

I would pay a 50 dollar subscription fee to whatever streaming service Disney wants me to buy if I could see Daredevil or the Punisher or any of the Defenders post-snap. Even just a tie-in comic would do.

Post snap would be utter chaos and after the un-snap it would probably be even worse. I think avoiding those questions and scenarios is what they’re going to go for because Im not sure recovering from those things without degenerating to martial law or just anarchy is possible.

[Draconi Redfir]

i'm still upset they removed agents of shield from netflix. i'd love to get into the defenders and other marvel netflix universe, but agents is where it all starts, and i want to see that first.

suppose i could always find a pirate hat somewhere.

[Bartmanhomer]

i'm still upset they removed agents of shield from netflix. i'd love to get into the defenders and other marvel netflix universe, but agents is where it all starts, and i want to see that first.

suppose i could always find a pirate hat somewhere.

They have agents of shield on Hulu.

[Draconi Redfir]

They have agents of shield on Hulu.

i don't have hulu sadly :P

of any of the other 10+ streaming services that kinda ruined the whole point of streaming services to begin with.

[Bartmanhomer]

i don't have hulu sadly :P

of any of the other 10+ streaming services that kinda ruined the whole point of streaming services to begin with.

Oh I'm sorry to hear that. Such Disney own Hulu. All Marvel TV shows will be on Hulu.

[Androgeus]

i'm still upset they removed agents of shield from netflix. i'd love to get into the defenders and other marvel netflix universe, but agents is where it all starts, and i want to see that first.

suppose i could always find a pirate hat somewhere.

Outside of possibly very minor easter egg/references that I can't recollect at the moment, Agents of Shield and the netflix show don't interact.

[Rodin]

Oh I'm sorry to hear that. Such Disney own Hulu. All Marvel TV shows will be on Hulu.

Interesting, I didn't know Disney owned Hulu. I wonder if that gives some hope of Disney's streaming service having some cross-over stuff for international audiences since Hulu is one site I've never managed to get working with a VPN.

Stupid international copyright laws.

[Bartmanhomer]

Interesting, I didn't know Disney owned Hulu. I wonder if that gives some hope of Disney's streaming service having some cross-over stuff for international audiences since Hulu is one site I've never managed to get working with a VPN.

Stupid international copyright laws.

Disney own just about everything that you could think of. They own Marvel, Hulu, ESPN, Lifetime, the list goes on and on.

[Joran]

Outside of possibly very minor easter egg/references that I can't recollect at the moment, Agents of Shield and the netflix show don't interact.

Agents of SHIELD started out having pretty close tie-ins to the movies, but is basically in its own universe now, with no connections to the movies or wider MCU.

I think you're right, the only easter eggs for the Netflix series is a TV chyron about violence in Hell's Kitchen and a Judas Bullet being used against a character in Agents of SHIELD.

Spoiler: Agents of SHIELD

Show

First season, the big tie-in was the reveal of Hydra which coincided with Captain America: Winter Soldier. The series really didn't get started until that reveal. We also had Agent Hill and Agent Sitwell appear in the first season.

They occasionally had some references to other movies and TV shows, like cleaning up the mess from Thor 2, Coulson providing the helicarrier used in Avengers 2 to rescue people, a headline on a TV news about violence in Hells Kitchen.

I think Avengers 2 marked the last time there was a link between AoS and the wider MCU, since Joss Whedon's brother and sister-in-law are showrunners on AoS.

Agents of SHIELD eventually spun off into its own kind of side universe with their own supers and own world-ending stakes, but it's still fun.

[Ramza00]

Interesting, I didn't know Disney owned Hulu. I wonder if that gives some hope of Disney's streaming service having some cross-over stuff for international audiences since Hulu is one site I've never managed to get working with a VPN.

Stupid international copyright laws.

Technically Disney does not own Hulu. Except it kind of will own Hulu due to recent developments in the last 3 months and it will take up to 5 years before the transfer of the property deeds is complete due to announcements in the last 3 months.

Hulu started as a joint venture between News Corporation (aka Fox), NBC Universal, and Providence Equity Partners, in 2007. It was going to be a place where multiple people would put up their shows and then split revenue based off screen time for no one partner has too much marketshare to do it alone.

Then later on Disney / ABC joined Hulu. Then Providence Equity Partners got out of Hulu, and Disney acquired Fox in the 2 year period from 2017 to 2019 (it did not become official until March 2019. Well in 2017 to 2019 Disney said even though they will soon have 60% of Hulu and thus they could make the rules it was better for them to be a benevolent leader for the other tv partners having their shows on Hulu makes Hulu more profitable for everyone and it is better to get 60% of the value of this bigger pie than 100% of the smaller pie. Disney finalizes the detail to acquire Fox in March of 2019.

Well in April 2019 everything hit the fan (I am dramatically simplifying) and AT&T / WarnerMedia wanted out of Hulu (remember AT&T acquired WarnerMedia in 2016 to 2018. Thus new leadership during this time from 2016 to 2019.) A month later in May 2019 Comcast which acquired NBCUniversal (2009 to 2013) announced Disney and Comcast will do a managed breakup from 2019 to 2024 where Disney will gain Hulu at a certain set guaranteed price (and that price that Comcast gets may go even higher if certain numbers are hit) and some of Comcast's properties will appear in this time during the managed breakup.

So in effect Disney now owns Huluand Disney is also making a plan for a Disney Plus Streaming service, while simultaneously keeping its existing Hulu Streaming Service, and its existing ESPN Plus Streaming Service (launched in 2018.) Disney Plus will not have mature stuff that is rated R (who knows how much that is PG-13 will appear on Disney Plus) and Disney Plus will be family friendly, while Hulu Plus will be more general entertainment.

-----

Pretty Much all of this occurs due to various mergers and acquisitions in the Media Space from 2007 to 2019.

This in turn does musical chairs in the various executive and board positions of the media company. And even without a merger and acquisition a company idea of how to make money can change when "new talent" enters the various executive chairs in a company. _{This is personal opinion, but I think most people will agree it is factual.} Want to know why so many streaming services are starting? It is because people inside a company does a "NEW play" in how to make money and they will get promoted and become wealthy if the NEW play is successful and if it is not successful a new executive will take their spot in this game of musical chairs. It is a mindset of growth even if the growth is unlikely to occur, and it does not really make sense, but it is the only way to make your bones, to make your mark, to get your shot, so the same idea presents itself again and again with another company entering the streaming wars. Think of it like the form of Feudalism where you have Feudalism with multiple sons and the top son does not get to automatically inherit everything automatically but the lands are split via some method via the various kids.

[JadedDM]

i'm still upset they removed agents of shield from netflix.

Wait, did they? I could have sworn I just saw it there yesterday.

*goes to check*

Yep, first five season are still on Netflix. At least, here in the states. Maybe not elsewhere?

[Ramza00]

So something something Avengers is getting a re-release in theaters with new DLC content so it can get past the 098.4% of Avatar box office for it is important to get past the magic number 100.0%