Is Create Homomculus overpriced?

[Segev]

Obviously, there is no other printed method for making the creatures. They have unspecific costs in the Monster Manual. But at 5 hp and little combat ability, they don't seem worth a 1000 gp focus item nor powerful enough to have to wait for 11 th level to get them. Especially since they're merely slightly more convenient familiars in most ways. Less convenient in terms of exploitable conjuration and disappearances.

I'm thinking they should be priced more like uncommon magical items or a third level spell, possibly non-ritual, to create, and maybe even creatable for any target willing to donate a few hp worth of blood.

[MaxWilson]

Obviously, there is no other printed method for making the creatures. They have unspecific costs in the Monster Manual. But at 5 hp and little combat ability, they don't seem worth a 1000 gp focus item nor powerful enough to have to wait for 11 th level to get them. Especially since they're merely slightly more convenient familiars in most ways. Less convenient in terms of exploitable conjuration and disappearances.

I'm thinking they should be priced more like uncommon magical items or a third level spell, possibly non-ritual, to create, and maybe even creatable for any target willing to donate a few hp worth of blood.

It's not the combat ability, it's the recon ability. Think of it as like a quasi-permanent Arcane Eye with Voice of the Chain Master built in.

At a combat hack-and-slash table it's less valuable and reducing the price wouldn't cause problems, but even at full price it has a niche.

[Segev]

It's not the combat ability, it's the recon ability. Think of it as like a quasi-permanent Arcane Eye with Voice of the Chain Master built in.

At a combat hack-and-slash table it's less valuable and reducing the price wouldn't cause problems, but even at full price it has a niche.

That's just it: the familiar already does that scouting job. For a first level spell slot and 10 gp, with a little more added in. And it's not even like find familiar being a wizard-only spell justifies the increased spell level: as written, create homonculus is also wizard-only, and also doesn't permit you to "share" it around.

I'm not discounting the recon ability. I'm questioning whether the recon ability is worth even as much as arcane eye, which at least is disposable and hard to detect.

[Eldariel]

That's just it: the familiar already does that scouting job. For a first level spell slot and 10 gp, with a little more added in. And it's not even like find familiar being a wizard-only spell justifies the increased spell level: as written, create homonculus is also wizard-only, and also doesn't permit you to "share" it around.

I'm not discounting the recon ability. I'm questioning whether the recon ability is worth even as much as arcane eye, which at least is disposable and hard to detect.

I usually cast Create Homunculus as soon as I enter Tier 3. Extra bodies that can take actions are just great and there's a limit on Familiars and everything else costs spell slots. So Homunculus comes in as a "second familiar" with a slightly different set of restrictions. It's not competing with Familiar; obviously familiar is even better in many ways and homunculus in others and they largely are comparable. Ultimately I think familiar is a bit better but there's something to be said for the homunculus. But, again, they stack and if one familiar is stupid good on level 1, imagine two. That's a stupid amount of outsourced practically free recon and utility (though of course, the 1000gp price tag would make it useless on level 1 specifically).

But quick comparison:

Familiar	Homunculus
Various vision modes and high PP depending on form	No notable detection capability beyond Darkvision 60'
100' telepathy	Unlimited telepathy
Good forms have great mobility (60' flight)	Decent mobility (40' flight)
Dies to slight breeze(e.g. Owl has 11 AC, 14 with Mage Armor), vulnerable to everything	Few immunities and a bit of AC (15 with Mage Armor, 13 otherwise). You can dump all your HP into it but realistically you probably can use it better.
Only offensive item use or Help-action	Has a low DC attack that's essentially save-or-die if enemy fails by 5 or more, but has DC10 and is a Con-save so that's basically never happening
Dies to slight breeze(e.g. Owl has 11 AC, 14 with Mage Armor), vulnerable to everything	Few immunities and a bit of AC (15 with Mage Armor, 13 otherwise)
Can be recalled from anywhere with an action and then resummoned with another one	Has no special mobility to speak of

Overall, while Homunculus has an edge in terms of attack (in having one at all), survivability and telepathy, given that you can recall your familiar trivially from anywhere the limit in telepathy isn't that big and given that Homunculus combat ability is pretty sad, it's probably still best using Help unless you can guarantee that enemy fails their save by 5 or more (poor Con target and you as a Diviner I guess). Familiar is generally better though Homunculus is a better tower/whatever guardian specifically since it can inform you of intruders/any events immediately wherever you be enabling you to take appropriate action. So yeah, I think Homunculus is pretty expensive...or rather, Familiar is really damn cheap for what it does.

[Segev]

So yeah, I think Homunculus is pretty expensive...or rather, Familiar is really damn cheap for what it does.

Nice comparative analysis, thanks!

I agree on both quoted points, though I will say that "familiar" is practically a wizard class feature, which is probably WHY it is so cheap. You're supposed to have to either play a wizard, a specific subclass of warlock, or take a pseudo-multiclassing feat of some sort to access that feature.

By making it a highish-level wizard-only spell, they've made a homonculus essentially a wizard class feature, as well, which I actually think is the wrong direction to take it, as I think it should be more available to other classes. Not super-cheap, but not more than it's worth, either. The 1000 gp dagger is not so bad at level 11, because it's not consumed, so you can just keep re-casting it daily if your homonculus dies.

I am mostly balking at it being such a high-level restricted item. It seems to me like it should be a moderately-pricey tier 2 item, not a middling-cheap class-restricted tier 3.

[Sigreid]

When I use one, it's to leave it home. What it brings to me is someone keeping an eye on my home, access to important people in town if needed, and access to my library from wherever I happen to be. That's pretty powerful.

[Imbalance]

It reads to me as another example of a good spell for NPC's and less so for players. It's an obvious way for the party to know that they're being spied on, and at best they can learn that trick from the curious wizard, or if said wizard's intentions are good he'll send his pet to accompany or guide them. It's a neat option for players, but it doesn't seem like it was designed with playability in mind.

[Unoriginal]

Keep in mind that Create Homunculus let you have an Homunculus AND doesn't remove the possibility of having a Familiar.

[JonBeowulf]

The price is mostly irrelevant... if you don't have 1000gp to spend on a spell component (that isn't consumed) by the time you get access to 6th level spells, then you need to have a serious talk with your DM.

Sure, Homunculus could be better, but I can't get behind the argument that it's too expensive. The cost should be pocket change long before you can cast it.

[MaxWilson]

That's just it: the familiar already does that scouting job. For a first level spell slot and 10 gp, with a little more added in. And it's not even like find familiar being a wizard-only spell justifies the increased spell level: as written, create homonculus is also wizard-only, and also doesn't permit you to "share" it around.

I'm not discounting the recon ability. I'm questioning whether the recon ability is worth even as much as arcane eye, which at least is disposable and hard to detect.

Unless you're a chainlock with an actually intelligent familiar, Find Familiar is no substitute. You have to be within about thirty yards of the familiar to have any control or visual input, at which point you're already personally on the scene. Find Familiar is useful for scouting above the treetops or peeking around corners, but for serious reconnaissance you need an intelligent familiar (i.e. Chainlock familiar) or a homonculus or an actual (N)PC.

Or, well, I guess you could also use a Paladin's steed maybe.

Too bad you can't Awaken a regular familiar because it's not a beast.

It reads to me as another example of a good spell for NPC's and less so for players. It's an obvious way for the party to know that they're being spied on, and at best they can learn that trick from the curious wizard, or if said wizard's intentions are good he'll send his pet to accompany or guide them. It's a neat option for players, but it doesn't seem like it was designed with playability in mind.

An NPC Diviner could even use his Homonculus to assist the party via Portent, not to mention fighting by proxy via magic items like Wand of Magic Missile and Elemental Gems for critical fights. Might even be a legitimate scenario for the caster to transfer HP to the homonculus, since the caster is safe at home.

Being assisted by an offscreen wizard who mostly just supplies information reminds me of Blade of the Poisoner.

[Segev]

The price is mostly irrelevant... if you don't have 1000gp to spend on a spell component (that isn't consumed) by the time you get access to 6th level spells, then you need to have a serious talk with your DM.

Sure, Homunculus could be better, but I can't get behind the argument that it's too expensive. The cost should be pocket change long before you can cast it.

Just for clarity on my part, I am considering "requires a sixth level spell" to be the greatest part of the overpricing.

I am debating between whether it's worth the equivalent of an uncommon or rare magic item. But either way, 11th level seems like more than it should take to get. I feel like it should be a stretch to afford one at level five (but doable) and reasonable by level 8 or so.

[JonBeowulf]

Just for clarity on my part, I am considering "requires a sixth level spell" to be the greatest part of the overpricing.

Okay, I can certainly agree with that.

[DwarfFighter]

I think there is an obvious benefit to Create Homunculus:

You can have both a Familiar and a Homunculus.

-DF

[Sigreid]

Just for clarity on my part, I am considering "requires a sixth level spell" to be the greatest part of the overpricing.

I am debating between whether it's worth the equivalent of an uncommon or rare magic item. But either way, 11th level seems like more than it should take to get. I feel like it should be a stretch to afford one at level five (but doable) and reasonable by level 8 or so.

But it's cast once and you got this cool magical slave forever if you don't get it killed.

[MaxWilson]

Just for clarity on my part, I am considering "requires a sixth level spell" to be the greatest part of the overpricing.

I am debating between whether it's worth the equivalent of an uncommon or rare magic item. But either way, 11th level seems like more than it should take to get. I feel like it should be a stretch to afford one at level five (but doable) and reasonable by level 8 or so.

If I had my druthers, Create Homoculus would remain 6th level and Find Familiar would be raised to 3rd or 4th level. It's a ritual that gives you a permanent concentration-free minion with telepathy and limited teleportation! Show me another first-level spell that grants permanent bonuses that way, let alone a ritual 1st level spell.

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

You're missing two huge advantages homunculus have over familiar: non-animal intelligence (already mentioned by MaxWilson) and potential opposable thumbs, if you shape it that way (and why wouldn't you?).

[Sigreid]

To put all the benefits another way, it is a spell that pretty much gives you voice of the chained master without having to have the invocation.

[Segev]

It reads to me as another example of a good spell for NPC's and less so for players. It's an obvious way for the party to know that they're being spied on, and at best they can learn that trick from the curious wizard, or if said wizard's intentions are good he'll send his pet to accompany or guide them. It's a neat option for players, but it doesn't seem like it was designed with playability in mind.

Why should only level 11+ NPCs have them? (I ask this because a "spell meant for NPCs" would necessitate that the NPCs be able to use it.)

Keep in mind that Create Homunculus let you have an Homunculus AND doesn't remove the possibility of having a Familiar.

I see this repeated a lot, but I don't think anybody has denied it. I fail to see how that justifies create homonculus being as high level as it is.

[Thunderous Mojo]

If I had my bruthers, Create Homoculus would remain 6th level and Find Familiar would be raised to 3rd or 4th level. It's a ritual that gives you a permanent concentration-free minion with telepathy and limited teleportation! Show me another first-level spell that grants permanent bonuses that way, let alone a ritual 1st level spell.

5e Familiars are, essentially, AD&D Homonculi.

There used to be rather dire consequences if your Familiar died, usually involving your Immediate Death or a loss of Constitution. Homonculi were the 'safe' option.

Not so much anymore. Though 5e Homonculi can be interplanetary spies for their creators.

[Ogun]

I thought this was gonna be about Homomculus as created by Artificers.
I'll have to check,but I'm thinking they are much cheaper.
Of course, they can also get a Familiar and give one to anyone else.

[MaxWilson]

5e Familiars are, essentially, AD&D Homonculi.

There used to be rather dire consequences if your Familiar died, usually involving your Immediate Death or a loss of Constitution. Homonculi were the 'safe' option.

Not so much anymore. Though 5e Homonculi can be interplanetary spies for their creators.

Heh. The consequences are so dire that off the top of my head, I don't remember what they are because no one I've played AD&D with has ever dared to acquire one!

[checks book]

Ah yes, possible death (system shock roll) and definitely a permanent loss of Constitution, and you can't replace the familiar until it's been a year since the last time you cast Find Familiar. The benefits of a familiar are so marginal that you'd probably only ever want one for roleplaying reasons (which is fine I guess, I'm just saying...).

[Eldariel]

You're missing two huge advantages homunculus have over familiar: non-animal intelligence (already mentioned by MaxWilson) and potential opposable thumbs, if you shape it that way (and why wouldn't you?).

That's fair enough, though I'd argue for most purposes you'd need it for animal intellect suffices; animals are perfectly capable of hiding and acquiring information and since it's telepathic towards you, there's little reason to assume there'd be any problems with information transfer too (and animal should largely retain the relevant information, i.e. weird-looking things, potential threats, etc.). Now, for using magic items, homunculus is certainly better and that's a huge advantage if they happen to be available, and I failed to mention that.

Heh. The consequences are so dire that off the top of my head, I don't remember what they are because no one I've played AD&D with has ever dared to acquire one!

[checks book]

Ah yes, possible death (system shock roll) and definitely a permanent loss of Constitution, and you can't replace the familiar until it's been a year since the last time you cast Find Familiar. The benefits of a familiar are so marginal that you'd probably only ever want one for roleplaying reasons (which is fine I guess, I'm just saying...).

In 3e it was fair enough: a bit of XP loss and can't get a new familiar for a year. Never stopped anyone; getting to double your actions with Share Spells was easily worth it.

[MaxWilson]

In 3e it was fair enough: a bit of XP loss and can't get a new familiar for a year. Never stopped anyone; getting to double your actions with Share Spells was easily worth it.

Yeah, but 3E's a WotC game, not a TSR game. No wonder the consequences are less severe. :-)

[Eldariel]

Yeah, but 3E's a WotC game, not a TSR game. No wonder the consequences are less severe. :-)

I kinda do miss system shock and haste/wish aging (and related system shock) and such. But those did mean that such spells were awfully rarely cast, which was of course something of a bummer, specifically because they were cool. It is actually amusing how almost all the spells that used to cause system shock are nowadays around the broken end of the spectrum (Polymorph-line, Wish, etc. though not Haste, granted) - they used to have costs to offset their great effects but now they only have great effects, go figure.

[MaxWilson]

I kinda do miss system shock and haste/wish aging (and related system shock) and such. But those did mean that such spells were awfully rarely cast, which was of course something of a bummer, specifically because they were cool. It is actually amusing how almost all the spells that used to cause system shock are nowadays around the broken end of the spectrum (Polymorph-line, Wish, etc. though not Haste, granted) - they used to have costs to offset their great effects but now they only have great effects, go figure.

To be scrupulously fair to WotC, it is also true that Polymorph Other has always been broken, even when it had a System Shock roll attached. It was just broken in a different way: your goal is to Polymorph random orcs and other bad guys into powerful good creatures like ki-rin, solars, and gold dragons so that when they inevitably "broke" and decided they really were solars/etc. and gained all of the special abilities, you could recruit them for your worthy schemes.

It's also almost as good as Magic Jar for Tarrasque-killing, except that you don't get to take over its body.

[Eldariel]

To be scrupulously fair to WotC, it is also true that Polymorph Other has always been broken, even when it had a System Shock roll attached. It was just broken in a different way: your goal is to Polymorph random orcs and other bad guys into powerful good creatures like ki-rin, solars, and gold dragons so that when they inevitably "broke" and decided they really were solars/etc. and gained all of the special abilities, you could recruit them for your worthy schemes.

It's also almost as good as Magic Jar for Tarrasque-killing, except that you don't get to take over its body.

That's true. Polymorph Other was least broken in 3.5e of all actual D&D editions (without Assume Supernatural Ability and their ilk where it "only" gave you ~30 Str instead of 16-18) and that was because buff Polymorph was dissociated from offensive Polymorph. But it was still broken. Shapeshifting is just such an awesome power that it takes a power leap to really balance it. 5e tried to fix it by limiting it to Beast shapes and kinda succeeded; it doesn't break that much anymore really but it still more or less gives a character triple their HP and the ability to suplex Tarrasque on level 7.

The only edition to really fix that line of spells was Pathfinder and there it was pretty far from the fantasy of turning into a given creature (basically you never had the "Wizard turns into a Dragon and tries to eat the Knight"-scene since you needed pretty darn good base stats for turning into things to be worth much so turning into a Dragon didn't do much).

[Lord Vukodlak]

One should not forget it takes an ACTION on the part of the wizard to see through his familiars senses.(during which time he's blind and deaf from his own body)
A Homomculus can communicate and convey what it senses with you over any distance of its own initiative without the mastery sacrificing his own awareness.

[Eldariel]

One should not forget it takes an ACTION on the part of the wizard to see through his familiars senses.(during which time he's blind and deaf from his own body)
A Homomculus can communicate and convey what it senses with you over any distance of its own initiative without the mastery sacrificing his own awareness.

Familiars have 100' telepathy in addition to the ability to see through their senses. Seeing through someone's senses is not necessary to get the lay of land, as the creature can just give you the information of what it senses. Depending on how efficient Telepathy is ruled, it might either be able to give you complete information ("Human next to a pillar" or "X distance from Y") or at least lay of the land so to speak. Both creatures can give that at no action cost (but Homunculus can do it regardless of range). However, for seeing things for yourself you might need a Familiar specifically (Homunculus can "magically convey what it Senses to its Master" but there's no proviso for the master sensing through the senses of the Homunculus). But Homunculus intelligence does however have the potential to let it make out something important (in D&D terms this would be things you need Investigation rather than Perception for; Familiars have incredible Perception but their Investigation is next to nonexistent), which is an advantage. However, Homunculus's 10 PP and 10 PI would mean I wouldn't trust it as a scout; it's quite likely to miss something important whereas your 18 PP Owl or 19 PP Hawk or Blindsighted Bat is far more able to make things out.

But back to Telepathy: the rules are a bit unclear on it. FWIW Monster Manual has this to say about Telepathy:
"Telepathy is a magical ability that allows a monster to communicate mentally with another creature within a specified range. The contacted creature doesn't need to share a language with the monster to communicate in this way with it, but it must be able to understand at least one language. A creature without telepathy can receive and respond to telepathic messages but can't initiate or terminate a telepathic conversation."

OTOH the PHB spell Telepathy says the following:
"Until the spell ends, you and the target can instantaneously share words, images, sounds, and other sensory messages with one another through the link, and the target recognizes you as the creature it is communicating with. The spell enables a creature with an Intelligence score of at least 1 to understand the meaning of your words and take in the scope of any sensory messages you send to it."

PHB and DMG have no further clarification on Familiar telepathy specifically; Homunculus telepathy explicitly lets it communicate what it senses but Familiar just says "can communicate telepathically". Whether we assume the MM or the PHB description, there's no need for a shared language which suggests that telepathy is more efficient and direct than verbal communication, in some cases explicitly and in some implicitly able to use images, feelings or straight brain info dump without a medium. In such a case, not seeing through the familiar's eyes doesn't really hurt you that much; you'll only use that ability when you need to e.g. Investigate something yourself or in general do something the familiar is unable to do (e.g. get line of sight to some creature; second hand account obviously doesn't suffice) or if you want to avoid being blind in dark quarters or whatever.

[MrStabby]

Why should only level 11+ NPCs have them? (I ask this because a "spell meant for NPCs" would necessitate that the NPCs be able to use it.)

I see this repeated a lot, but I don't think anybody has denied it. I fail to see how that justifies create homonculus being as high level as it is.

I see this as being like the fighter's third attack.

You get an extra attack - should it really wait till 11th level? Well maybe if you already got one at 5th.

Should a wizard really have to wait till 11th level to get an extra permenant summoned creature? Well maybe yes ifits on top of one you already picked up earlier.

[Imbalance]

Why should only level 11+ NPCs have them? (I ask this because a "spell meant for NPCs" would necessitate that the NPCs be able to use it.)

DM caveat is the short answer. As a primarily non-combat spell, it allows the injection of a powerful character for story purposes without the side effects of a full strength dose of DMPC wizard.

I can imagine a host of answers to "why," but I don't think you'll be satisfied by my take. I simply accept that not everything created by the developers is useful or a good idea. I must've played through Earthbound a dozen times, and while I'm sure I always completed the side quest to return the contact lense to the dude in the bakery, I can't remember ever using the reward. It was similar with the Biggoron Sword, and countless other items/techniques/unlockables - many things exist in games for no other purpose than to be an interesting option, and the only real enticement is that they're locked behind a higher level or specific achievement. I find that to be the case with at least a quarter of the spells in D&D, and, based on my video-game-derived prior experience, those are the ones that perhaps ought to be dangled in front of the players like a carrot to chase and acquire, then decide the worthiness for themselves. The difference is that with tabletop, the freedom exists to "alter the code" each playthrough, so that if you and the DM can imagine it, you may choose to either improve and strengthen the spell or press up, up, down, down, etc. to access it at an earlier stage.